What if we accepted each others Religion?

[loverofhumanity]

Fair enough.



Then why do you do it so often?

Do you recognize how your approach in this thread has been (or at least tried to be) manipulative by trying to control how words are used?

Just to step back a bit so you know where I'm coming from: I've known exactly one Baha'i in real life, and that was in a professional setting where it wouldn't have been appropriate for me to bring up religion. My main impression of Baha'is - and your religion - is from you and the other Baha'i members here.

... and that impression hasn't been great so far, for a number of reasons. To prevent myself from writing off the religion completely, I end up having to remind myself that the people here probably can't be taken as representative of the whole religion - any Baha'i who just practices their religion and does their own thing isn't going to be loudly proclaiming their religion on RF for me to notice. I force myself to reserve judgment.

But this tactic... this "no, don't use the word religion/proselytizing/whatever in that perfectly normal way; you have to use it only in the way I say, which happens to make me look better" thing... this makes me reconsider reserving judgment.

This is a common manipulative tactic in dangerous groups ("cults", if you prefer), so even if you weren't formally taught to use it, seeing you and other Baha'i members using it way more than anyone else makes me wonder if you and they use it because you've seen it modelled in other conversations in contexts where the tactic was tolerated or even supported.

... and I'm fairly sure that the only thing common among the Baha'i members here is their religion, not even a specific congregation, so this raises a red flag for me about the religion as a whole.

I’m not saying to use religion in the way I use it. I’m only explaining how I understand religion. You don’t have to accept that at all nor am I insisting anyone accept my understanding. it’s just my own personal belief which anyone is welcome to reject, criticise or oppose. But I have reasons why I have that understanding which I can explain.

The way I understand things it leads me to accept all religions as having a common foundation so I find it very easy to accept all religions . I’m only sharing a different way of viewing other religions which enables me to believe in them all. Anyone is more than welcome to reject it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

In my conversations with ex-Bahai's, during my research a few years back, they are indeed taught all of these sorts of tactics. Your suspicions were spot on. It was one of many factors why people left. This argument is countered with 'ex-Baha'i's have an anti-Baha'i agenda'. In some cases that's true, but also many were just chatting with other exes for some sort of mutual support, and that wonderful feeling of 'you're not alone'. I was accused of having an anti-Baha'i agenda on this very forum. The first time I'd 'spoken' to any Baha'i was here.

I had a very good friend drop in today. She is a Hindu and we enjoyed her company a lot She chanted some Bhajans which were beautiful. This is what we do. Warmly welcome people from all faiths and be loving and hospitable to them. And sometimes we have Christians drop in for lunch. And they treat us with love and kindness. And we all feel that our beliefs connect us as children of the same God. I mix with the Catholics here and Indian community and unknown to myself both the Bishop, priest and Hindu visited the Baha’i Temple here and loved it. We all see each other as one. Looking at each others good qualities and what we have in common has brought us together. And that beautiful Hindu brought us a bunch of flowers, chocolates and a very delicious curry which my wife and I enjoyed. People who know us personally love us and there is never any talk of things like tactics or such.

So if our words give that impression then I don’t think we should judge each other on words alone. We are just ordinary people like anyone else and imperfect as people point out. But our friends who’ve met us and know us see us very differently.

 

[Vinayaka]

I had a very good friend drop in today. She is a Hindu and we enjoyed her company a lot She chanted some Bhajans which were beautiful. This is what we do. Warmly welcome people from all faiths and be loving and hospitable to them. And sometimes we have Christians drop in for lunch. And they treat us with love and kindness. And we all feel that our beliefs connect us as children of the same God. I mix with the Catholics here and Indian community and unknown to myself both the Bishop, priest and Hindu visited the Baha’i Temple here and loved it. We all see each other as one. Looking at each others good qualities and what we have in common has brought us together. And that beautiful Hindu brought us a bunch of flowers, chocolates and a very delicious curry which my wife and I enjoyed. People who know us personally love us and there is never any talk of things like tactics or such.

So if our words give that impression then I don’t think we should judge each other on words alone. We are just ordinary people like anyone else and imperfect as people point out. But our friends who’ve met us and know us see us very differently.

That sort of stuff happens to most of us. It's called being a good neighbor. Not something unique to Baha'i, but if you want to pretend it is, that's fine.

Which bhajans did she sing?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yep exactly, it is what you would expect from a manmade origin in 19th century Persia, not at all what you would expect from an All-knowing God who is deeply familiar with all religions in my view.

@Dawnofhope said:
"The Baha'i writings have very little to say about Hinduism, as you would expect from a religion that arose in Shi'a Islamic Persia in the nineteenth century."

No, this is exactly what one would expect from an All-knowing God.
Why would an All-knowing and All-wise God reveal anything a 5000 year old religion that has nothing to do with the age we live in?

What we would expect to hear from the Messenger of God for this age is the following:

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” ​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213​

​

“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80​

Did Muhammad refer to Hinduism?
Did Jesus refer to Hinduism?
Did Moses refer to Hinduism?

 

[danieldemol]

@Dawnofhope said:
"The Baha'i writings have very little to say about Hinduism, as you would expect from a religion that arose in Shi'a Islamic Persia in the nineteenth century."

No, this is exactly what one would expect from an All-knowing God.
Why would an All-knowing and All-wise God reveal anything a 5000 year old religion that has nothing to do with the age we live in?

By that logic an All-knowing and all wise God would reveal nothing concerning Judaism in my view. Baha'u'llah refers to Judaism in his writings though so if an All-knowing All wise God wouldn't do that then Baha'u'llah was not connected to such a God as per your logic in my view.

What we would expect to hear from the Messenger of God for this age is the following:

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” ​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213​

​

“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80​

So all we can expect from an All-Knowing God is undemonstrated claims to knowledge? Got it in my view.

Did Muhammad refer to Hinduism?
Did Jesus refer to Hinduism?
Did Moses refer to Hinduism?

Irrelevant as they weren't connected to an All-knowing God either in my view.

 

[Dawnofhope]

In my conversations with ex-Bahai's, during my research a few years back, they are indeed taught all of these sorts of tactics. Your suspicions were spot on.

What are these 'tactics'? I've never had any training to talk to people on the internet or anywhere else. Nor have any other Baha'is I know. Some people communicate differently from others and use language differently.

 

[Trailblazer]

This tactic you're using - i.e. when someone else is using a word in a normal way, insist that the only way it can be properly used is a different, narrow definition you insist on - is manipulative.

I only see it regularly from 3 members here and two of them - you and @Trailblazer - are Baha'i. Is this something they teach you to do?

I have no idea what you are talking about.
Since you mentioned me, can you explain how you think I use this 'tactic?'

 

[danieldemol]

What are these 'tactics'? I've never had any training to talk to people on the internet or anywhere else. Nor have any other Baha'is I know. Some people communicate differently from others and use language differently.

You may not have consciously been trained that way, but being indoctrinated into semantic usages of words *is* a form of training, even if not one you are consciously aware of in my view.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have no idea what you are talking about.
Since you mentioned me, can you explain how you think I use this 'tactic?'

Here's one of the times that I talked to you about this:

What do you get from being atheist?

What something 'feels like' is not always what it actually is. Sure, but I see absolutely no reason to second-guess my feeling, and no reason to prioritize your religion for a second look ahead of all the other things that set off my BS detector. I do not know what MLM is..... Multi-level...

www.religiousforums.com

Edit: post 75 in case the bookmark doesn't work perfectly.

 

[Trailblazer]

By that logic an All-knowing and all wise God would reveal nothing concerning Judaism in my view. Baha'u'llah refers to Judaism in his writings though so if an All-knowing All wise God wouldn't do that then Baha'u'llah was not connected to such a God as per your logic in my view.

Baha'u'llah referred to the Prophets in the Abrahamic line of religion in The Kitab-i-Iqan since that is history that is connected together as per the Bible.

So all we can expect from an All-Knowing God is undemonstrated claims to knowledge? Got it in my view.

Yes, that is what we would expect from any religion, since there is no proof that any claimed Messenger was sent by God, who has all knowledge.
How could the claims if a Messenger be demonstrated when the God can never be demonstrated to exist?

Irrelevant as they weren't connected to an All-knowing God either in my view.

You are welcome to your view but please bear in mind that it is not shared by 55% of the world population.

List of religious populations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Trailblazer]

Here's one of the times that I talked to you about this:

What do you get from being atheist?

What something 'feels like' is not always what it actually is. Sure, but I see absolutely no reason to second-guess my feeling, and no reason to prioritize your religion for a second look ahead of all the other things that set off my BS detector. I do not know what MLM is..... Multi-level...

www.religiousforums.com

Edit: post 75 in case the bookmark doesn't work perfectly.

This tactic you're using - i.e. when someone else is using a word in a normal way, insist that the only way it can be properly used is a different, narrow definition you insist on - is manipulative.

I only see it regularly from 3 members here and two of them - you and @Trailblazer - are Baha'i. Is this something they teach you to do?

What is the meaning of recruiting?

Recruitment is the process of actively seeking out, finding and hiring candidates for a specific position or job. The recruitment definition includes the entire hiring process, from inception to the individual recruit's integration into the company.

What is Recruitment? | Definition, Meaning, and Process - Sage​

I am using the word in a normal way. You are trying to apply a word that does not describe what Baha'is do -- which is called sharing and teaching.

Baha'is do not actively seek out, find and bring people into the Baha'i Faith since that is against what the Baha'is have been enjoined to do by the Universal House of Justice (UHJ).

If you think the definition I gave is too specific, here is another broader definition.

recruited; recruiting; recruits​

​

1a(1) : to fill up the number of with new members : reinforce​

recruit an army​

​

(2) : to enlist as a member of an armed service​

​

b: to increase or maintain the number of​

America recruited her population from Europe​

​

c: to secure the services of : engage, hire​

​

d: to seek to enroll​

recruit prospective students​

​

Definition of RECRUIT​

Please note that the Baha'is are not attempting to fill up the number of with new members or seeking to enroll anyone into the Baha'i Faith.
All we do is share and teach, and we only teach if people are interested in what we share.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am using the word in a normal way. You are trying to apply a word that does not describe what Baha'is do -- which is called sharing and teaching.

Bahais do not actively seek out, find and bring people into the Baha'i Faith since that is against what the Baha'is have been enjoined to do by the Universal House of Justice (UHJ).

If you think the definition I gave is too specific, here is another broader definition.

recruited; recruiting; recruits​

​

1a(1) : to fill up the number of with new members : reinforce​

recruit an army​

​

(2) : to enlist as a member of an armed service​

​

b: to increase or maintain the number of​

America recruited her population from Europe​

​

c: to secure the services of : engage, hire​

​

d: to seek to enroll​

recruit prospective students​

​

Definition of RECRUIT​

Please note that the Baha'is are not attempting to fill up the number of with new members or seeking to enroll anyone into the Baha'i Faith.
All we do is share and teach, and we only teach if people are interested in what we share.

My intent wasn't to keep that argument going in a new thread. You asked; I told you. There are other times that I've called you out for this behaviour; that post was just the first one that came up in my search.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You may not have consciously been trained that way, but being indoctrinated into semantic usages of words *is* a form of training, even if not one you are consciously aware of in my view.

I have no idea what you are talking about. It must be my unconscious indoctrination preventing me from seeing the truth. Do you have any specific examples?

 

[Trailblazer]

My intent wasn't to keep that argument going in a new thread. You asked; I told you.

You told me and now you want to drop the subject because you cannot defend your position.
Your position is indefensible for reasons I gave you.
Baha'is do not recruit people into the Baha'i Faith, not by any definition of recruit, so you are the one who is using the wrong word.

There are other times that I've called you out for this behaviour; that post was just the first one that came up in my search.

There is no 'behavior' and that is why you cannot defend your claim.
A person who thinks they can defend their claim is willing to explain and discuss it, like I did.

People who have no evidence just make bald assertions, hoping people will believe them.

What is "bald assertion?" Well the name says it all, doesn't it? It's stating something without backing it up. Logical Fallacy Lesson 4: Bald Assertion | Rational Response Squad

 

[Trailblazer]

I have no idea what you are talking about. It must be my

No, it is called obfuscation, a common tactic. It may be employed consciously or unconsciously.

Obfuscation means to make something difficult to understand. Programming code is often obfuscated to protect intellectual property or trade secrets, and to prevent an attacker from reverse engineering a proprietary software program.

What is obfuscation and how does it work? - TechTarget​

 

[Dao Hao Now]

I wouldn’t say that after studying those scriptures in depth.

I don’t find that the least bit surprising.


Here’s a hint;

I’m only sharing a different way of viewing other religions which enables me to believe in them all.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You told me and now you want to drop the subject because you cannot defend your position.

I'm not going to derail this thread. If you want to continue this, do it in the original thread. I'll decide for myself whether I'll reply there, but I certainly won't be doing it here.

 

[Vinayaka]

What are these 'tactics'? I've never had any training to talk to people on the internet or anywhere else. Nor have any other Baha'is I know. Some people communicate differently from others and use language differently.

The main one used here, but mostly by 2 people in particular, is to ask a question that seems to have nothing to do with Baha'i, get a few responses, and then introduce Baha'i. It's been a proselytizing tactic for awhile. (Bait and switch) Since this forum allows all of us to see all the threads that were started by each member, a bit of research along those lines would lead almost anyone to that same conclusion.

 

[Trailblazer]

The main one used here, but mostly by 2 people in particular, is to ask a question that seems to have nothing to do with Baha'i, get a few responses, and then introduce Baha'i. It's been a proselytizing tactic for awhile. (Bait and switch) Since this forum allows all of us to see all the threads that were started by each member, a bit of research along those lines would lead almost anyone to that same conclusion.

I understand what you are talking about but I do not think that @Dawnofhope is one of those people, nor am I.

That said, I do not think those who do it are employing a tactic. I think they just cannot help from sharing their Baha'i beliefs since they think that is all that matters in life and it is the only solution to all the worlds' problems.

I do not think that way.

 

[Vinayaka]

I understand what you are talking about but I do not think that @Dawnofhope is one of those people, nor am I.

Yes, you are correct in that, and thanks for understanding the point. Some people are just better representatives of their faith than others.