What if we accepted each others Religion?

[CG Didymus]

By religion I mean the Founders and their scriptures not the man made doctrines and preacher commentaries and interpretations.

Who wrote the "Scriptures" of all the other religions?

We say that all the religions as given by the Founders is true. The foundation which is the Educator and His holy book is true we say.

As pointed out several times, there is no "manifestation" founder of Hinduism. Then the one person you pick to be the "founder" of Hinduism teaches things that Baha'is don't believe are true. And "His" holy book? Who wrote the Gita?

Anyway, I just looked up some information about Krishna. Here's something interesting...

The tradition of Krishna appears to be an amalgamation of several independent deities of ancient India, the earliest to be attested being Vāsudeva.[42] Vāsudeva was a hero-god of the tribe of the Vrishnis, belonging to the Vrishni heroes, whose worship is attested from the 5th–6th century BCE in the writings of Pāṇini, and from the 2nd century BCE in epigraphy with the Heliodorus pillar.[42] At one point in time, it is thought that the tribe of the Vrishnis fused with the tribe of the Yadavas/Abhiras, whose own hero-god was named Krishna.[42] Vāsudeva and Krishna fused to become a single deity, which appears in the Mahabharata, and they started to be identified with Vishnu in the Mahabharata and the Bhagavad Gita.[42] Around the 4th century CE, another tradition, the cult of Gopala-Krishna of the Ābhīras, the protector of cattle, was also absorbed into the Krishna tradition.[42]​

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Do Baha'is know or care about how these stories came about? It doesn't seem like it. Yet... Baha'is say to investigate the truth. But the Baha'i truth can't have Krishna be a myth or legend. He needs to be real, and he needs to be a manifestation. But, as pointed out to Baha'is several times, Krishna is the 8th incarnation of Vishnu. And Baha'is don't talk about that. Who are the seven previous incarnations? What "Holy" books did they bring? What were the things they taught?

After Krishna there is a ninth and tenth Avatar. Buddha is the ninth and Kalki is the tenth. Where did these stories about Kalki come from? When will he appear? If Jesus, Muhammad and the Bab are all "manifestations", why didn't these Scriptures include them as Avatars?

Too many questions. Too many loose ends to try and tie together. So, what is the solution?

You have plainly demonstrated that in fact you don’t.
You have only accepted the caricature of those religions that enables you to perpetuate your fantasy.

This is the Baha'i solution. Take only a few things from the other religions and make up a story of how they all tie together. Baha'u'llah didn't say much, if anything, about the religions of India. They got added in later. Then there is the problem of the beliefs in those religions. Baha'is use the old "symbolic" or the "traditions" added in by men, excuse. The Baha'is needed a founder. For Buddhism it was easy. But who was the founder of Hinduism? If Krishna is the 8th Avatar, he couldn't be the person that started it.

But then there's the problem of the Hindus that don't follow Krishna. Who was their founder? What can Baha'is do? They don't want to have to try and answer all these questions. Their concern is to give a reasonable explanation as to why their beliefs of a "progressive" revelation are true.

A "caricature" of those religions is exactly what Baha'is are doing.

 

[CG Didymus]

We accept that the Buddha Gautama prophesied Maitreya the future Buddha and that He has appeared. If it’s true then that confirms that Buddha Maitreya is confirming by the fact He is Who Gautama spoke of that Gautama originally taught the oneness of God.

So I believe we are accepting the Buddhas prophecies which Buddhists are supposed to accept also. The prophecies about Maitreya are there in the Buddhist scriptures for a reason so when He appears Buddhists will turn to Him. We have accepted Him so we believe we are loyal to Buddha.

What are the Scriptures that have these prophecies about "Maitreya"? Who wrote them, and when were they written? What do those prophecies say? How do Baha'is interpret them?

 

[Vinayaka]

One good thing here is that Baha'i is such a minor player on the humanity team on this planet that any impact of their misinformation is largely irrelevant because the impact of the religions they minimize totally overwhelms their misrepresentation. If a person is interested in a religion, are they really going to use the Bahai view of said religion? I think not.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is a prophecy in the Book of Revelation that only the Promised One can unseal the books not any man in heaven or on earth or under it. That is saying that the current interpretations mean zilch without the interpretation of the Lion of the tribe of Judah. Revelation 5:5 We have accepted His interpretation which is from God.

The scroll gets unsealed, and the story gets told.

Revelation 5:2 “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”​

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6:1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals.​

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22:10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.​

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Again... Dishonest? Or just taking your beliefs, and your religion's interpretations as true?

The intent seems clear... You and other Baha'is are pushing your religion as being correct, and that all the others are wrong. You believe that the religious leaders of all of them have corrupted the "true" teachings of the religion. Now, the Baha'i Faith has come along and given us the true meanings.

Maybe you're right. Maybe you're wrong. But the Baha'i beliefs are not causing unity between those that believe that their religion is true and the Baha'is. The Baha'is unity is when we all realize that what we believed was wrong, and what the Baha'i Faith teaches is right. And... like I said, maybe you are right. But... maybe not. And what do we have to do to find out? Ask questions and challenge the Baha'is to give answers that support their beliefs.

 

[Bthoth]

Different "paths" is much better. A person doesn't have to pretend they believe in the things that the other religions says are true but just accept that the other religions are true for those other people.

IN other words be tolerant that 'they' are confused and mistaken?

Doesn't quite work. The teachings of one religion are not the same as the teachings of another. Even the teachings about who and what God is... aren't the same.

Exactly. To be 'tolerant' does not fix any problems. It just enables them to continue.

 

[Secret Chief]

Gautama originally taught the oneness of God.

No.

 

[Secret Chief]

kindly stay on topic on this thread

Certainly.

Bahais do not accept Buddhism...

The Pali literature (the earliest) of the Theravada tradition includes stories of 28 previous Buddhas. Were they messengers of your god as well?

In some Sanskrit and northern Buddhist traditions a bhadrakalpa (fortunate eon) contains up to 1,000 Buddhas. Were these all messengers of your god too? Seems a little excessive.

Has Bahai high command thought this through?

 

[Trailblazer]

Are Baha'is doing that here with members of other religions?

Yes we are. I have no problem in discussions or debates with the followers of any other religions.

But again, how do you do that when it is clear that Baha'is believe their religion and teachings have replaced the teachings of the old religions?

Baha'is do not believe that our religion and teachings have 'replaced' the teachings of the old religions. We only believe that the former religious 'Dispensations' have been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures, disclaims any intention of lowering the status of their Founders or of abating the spiritual ideals they inculcate…….” God Passes By, p. 100​

However, it was only the former Dispensations that have been abrogated. The 'religions themselves' have not been abrogated.

“Let no one, however, mistake my purpose. The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause.”​

The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, pp, 57-58​

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Read more: Fundamental Principle of Religious Truth​

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm amazed at how so many people believe that just because they say something, that makes it true. Today I'm jumping on my flying carpet and flying south.

If you honestly believe something about yourself, yet every single person you meet, say 500 people, disagree, and you keep thinking you're right, with absolute conviction, then it's time to give your head a shake.

That applies to everyone equally, not only the Baha'is.
But some people here cannot see that. They can only see what they believe as incontrovertibly true.
Yet they have no proof that it is incontrovertibly true.

The fact that 'many or most' people believe something does not mean it is true.
That is the fallacy of ad populum.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

One good thing here is that Baha'i is such a minor player on the humanity team on this planet

One good thing is that this will not always be the case.
Religions take time to grow. The future is not here yet.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Who wrote the "Scriptures" of all the other religions?

God gave us all the scriptures.

The form they appear to us in this age, is all part of God's plan.

We get to unravel what is of man and what is of God. The same quandary that every person faces in every age.

Luckily we have science in this age, and luckily we have been told that we must search scriptures using science and reason.

The Kitab-i-iqan explains this quandary in detail.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Who wrote the "Scriptures" of all the other religions?

A Messenger of God did not write them so there is no reason to believe they are the incontrovertible truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

We accept that the Buddha Gautama prophesied Maitreya the future Buddha and that He has appeared. If it’s true then that confirms that Buddha Maitreya is confirming by the fact He is Who Gautama spoke of that Gautama originally taught the oneness of God.

Baha'u'llah did not confirm that the Buddha originally taught the oneness of God. Abdu'l-Baha said that.

Baha'u'llah did not directly discuss Buddha but 'Abdu'l-Baha did briefly in a few instances, some technically not scripture because they are recorded but not authenticated talks. Essentially, Buddha was a Manifestation of God who taught of one God ("Unseen," Uncreated") and against the worship of idols but after Buddha passed away Buddhism lost or changed. [Academics now recognize that much of what is in Buddhist texts and traditions was driven by an from monastic practices and post an early split in Buddhism. It appears that a lot of teachings, beliefs, and practices were also adopted or adapted after Buddha from Hindu and local folk beliefs, such as the idols, deity concepts, prayer wheels, and reincarnation in order to appeal to people, sort of similar to some of the use of saints and idols in Catholic communities in some places.]
https://www.reddit.com/r/bahai/comments/s1x9f3

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Certainly.

Bahais do not accept Buddhism...

The Pali literature (the earliest) of the Theravada tradition includes stories of 28 previous Buddhas. Were they messengers of your god as well?

In some Sanskrit and northern Buddhist traditions a bhadrakalpa (fortunate eon) contains up to 1,000 Buddhas. Were these all messengers of your god too?

Has Bahai high command thought this through?

As a Baha'i I 100% accept Buddha.

As to what the Buddha actually taught, that is an entirely different topic, but most likely a lot of that can be thrown in the trash can as it came from new age Buddhists, and not the Buddha.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

As a Baha'i I 100% except Buddha.

I guess you meant to say that you accept Buddha?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

One good thing here is that Baha'i is such a minor player on the humanity team on this planet that any impact of their misinformation is largely irrelevant because the impact of the religions they minimize overwhelms their misrepresentation. If a person is interested in a religion, are they really going to go the Bahai view of said religion? I think not.

One good thing is that this will not always be the case.
Religions take time to grow. The future is not here yet.

This is in Prophecy.

The Oneness of God has been hidden. God said when the Jews return to the Holy Land that they would again become known as a great Nation and that the Face of God will eventually not be hidden.

One such passage.

"Ezekiel 39:25-29

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.

Regards Tony

 

[Truthseeker]

Are Baha'is doing that here with members of other religions?

But again, how do you do that when it is clear that Baha'is believe their religion and teachings have replaced the teachings of the old religions?

It has been said to you repeatedly (at least I have) that we are not replacing the teachings of the old religions. The spiritual teachings of many religions are in harmony with Baha'i teachings. The social laws are different, and we are not interested in making everybody else follow our social laws.

 

[Trailblazer]

As to what the Buddha actually taught, that is an entirely different topic, but most likely a lot of that can be thrown in the trash can as it came from new age Buddhists, and not the Buddha.

That brought to mind the following passage:

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

 

[Secret Chief]

As a Baha'i I 100% accept Buddha.

As to what the Buddha actually taught, that is an entirely different topic, but most likely a lot of that can be thrown in the trash can as it came from new age Buddhists, and not the Buddha.

Regards Tony

I referred to the earliest texts - the Pali (considered the words of the Buudha)- what is your opinion on the 28 previous Buddhas? Messengers?

That which did not come from the Buddha would include sutras (1st century BCE, not exactly New Age) of Mahayana Buddhism. Putting this in the trash then by the Bahai? The largest school of Buddhism...

So it seems Bahai outright rejects the trash-worthy Mahayana and Vajrayana whilst claiming (in some perverted way) the texts of the Theravada, after due mutilation by Bahai central. And this is the Bahai acceptance of another religion is it. It seems to me what needs putting in the trash can is not the Buddhist sutras.

 

[Truthseeker]

Contradictory narratives will still be contradictory narratives in 5-6 centuries. The Buddha was not a Messenger of the Abrahamic god two thousand five hundred years ago and he still won't have been one in 5-6 centuries. Etc etc etc.

The Buddha was definitely someone from a different religious tradition, He was not in a Abrahamic Milieu. He taught like all Messengers according to the understanding of the people of India at that time. As to another's Baha'is assertion that the Buddha taught the oneness of God, the Buddha only pointed to God indirectly a time or two, and it could definitely could be understood by many followers of His, that these references were not about God. I don't consider that important to unity between Buddhists and Baha'is, because Baha'u'llah stated that the utmost we can know God is already within ourselves. Like here:

12. O SON OF BEING!
With the hands of power I made thee and with the fingers of strength I created thee; and within thee have I placed the essence of My light. Be thou content with it and seek naught else, for My work is perfect and My command is binding. Question it not, nor have a doubt thereof.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

or here:

Far, far from Thy glory be what mortal man can affirm of Thee, or attribute unto Thee, or the praise with which he can glorify Thee! Whatever duty Thou hast prescribed unto Thy servants of extolling to the utmost Thy majesty and glory is but a token of Thy grace unto them, that they may be enabled to ascend unto the station conferred upon their own inmost being, the station of the knowledge of their own selves.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 4)