What if we accepted each others Religion?

[TransmutingSoul]

This is what I keep saying, that Quran is full of conditional prophecies. They are promises but with conditions. One of these promises if you keep in mind all the talk about past cities destroyed, is that the universal Messenger (ie. the Mahdi) will be a trial for all cities, and whoever denies him, will be physically destroyed. I say physically since the mini context within the Surah as well the broader themes of destroyed nations and cities all point to this meaning. But it's also a prophecy meant to be avoided and warnings is to make us avoid this. The delay of Imam Mahdi (a) appearing has to do with making the world avoid this dark prophecy that will come about if they don't heed the warnings.

I see the delay is in our exceptance of the Mahdi, the Prohecy is unfolding as we did not heed the call to peace and unity.

Remember, those that denied persecuted and banished Baha'u'llah were the Islamic Nations.

I would just offer the events of our time and the suffering we are now witnessing across Islamic Nations, which inturn, is reverberating around all Nations.

The destruction has just begun, I offer a thought under the spoiler.

Spoiler

Once Varqa asked Baha'u'llah, "How will the Cause of God be universally adopted by mankind?" Baha'u'llah said that first, the nations of the world would arm themselves with infernal engines of war, and when fully armed would attack each other like bloodthirsty beasts. As a result, there would be enormous bloodshed throughout the world. Then the wise men from all nations would gather together to investigate the cause of such bloodshed. They would come to the conclusion that prejudices were the cause, a major form being religous prejudice. They would therefore try to eliminate religion so as to eliminate prejudice. Later they would realize that man cannot live without religion. Then they would study the teachings of all religions to see which of the religions conformed to the prevailing conditions of the time. It is then that the Cause of God would become universal.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Seems like other members of your faith disagree with you.

No, they do not, we are just offering more thoughts. It is a topic that has many explanations in the Baha'i Writings, which are reflected in other Scriptures.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

I see some are both a material realisation, but most importantly they were spiritual Lessons. Many stories are just spirirual lessons

The best lesson I see on this is what Jesus offered in the Bible after performing miracles. Jesys said tell no one, as it was about being Spiritually cleansed. Note he told the person to go and tell the priests that he was purified (Spiritually cleansed) and that he would become a living testimony to the Spirit that is Christ.

Luke 5:13-14 “Tell no one what has happened, but go to the temple priests and show them you've been healed. And to show that you are purified, make an offering for your cleansing, just as Moses commanded. You will become a living testimony to them!”

Thus all quoted miracles in all the Holy Books have a Spiritual Lesson, the material miracle is not important, as the flesh body will soon again be consumed by age, sickness and death.

Yet as Jesus said, if one is Born Again from the flesh into the Spirit that is Christ, death cannot overtake them.

This also explains the Quran verses that tell us Jesus did not die, you cannot kill Christ, the Spirit that is of God.

We could discuss many wonderful things.

Regards Tony

I agree they both have spiritual lessons (metaphors) and they are physical as well. For example, the twelve split of water is symbolic of the branches (Twelve Successors) of Musa (a) and has to do with the word "branches" in Hebrew. Asbat in Arabic has to do with branches but tree like branches is the metaphor while in Hebrew the similar word has to do with "splits" from "water" like river splitting into two parts for example. Both of them can be used as metaphors of grandchildren and groupings of children under a lineage. So Muslims still think Asbat is about tribes, and Jews think the twelve "tribes" are what is written on the gates of paradise or city of paradise or whatever, while, I believe every founder has twelve branches, and so that is what the twelve gates are, and they are true of all people because every founder has twelve gates to their knowledge and wisdom to be entered through.

The split of the moon is because Nubuwa ended (Quran) but leadership continued. The physical miracle happened, but it has symbolic meaning.

 

[Link]

No, they do not, we are just offering more thoughts. It is a topic that has many explanations in the Baha'i Writings, which are reflected in other Scriptures.

Regards Tony

This is a binary issue. Either physical miracles happened in the past or they did not.

 

[Link]

I see the delay is in our exceptance of the Mahdi, the Prohecy is unfolding as we did not heed the call to peace and unity.

Remember, those that denied persecuted and banished Baha'u'llah were the Islamic Nations.

I would just offer the events of our time and the suffering we are now witnessing across Islamic Nations, which inturn, is reverberating around all Nations.

The destruction has just begun, I offer a thought under the spoiler.

Spoiler

Once Varqa asked Baha'u'llah, "How will the Cause of God be universally adopted by mankind?" Baha'u'llah said that first, the nations of the world would arm themselves with infernal engines of war, and when fully armed would attack each other like bloodthirsty beasts. As a result, there would be enormous bloodshed throughout the world. Then the wise men from all nations would gather together to investigate the cause of such bloodshed. They would come to the conclusion that prejudices were the cause, a major form being religous prejudice. They would therefore try to eliminate religion so as to eliminate prejudice. Later they would realize that man cannot live without religion. Then they would study the teachings of all religions to see which of the religions conformed to the prevailing conditions of the time. It is then that the Cause of God would become universal.

Regards Tony

The point is Tony, Ali (a) is said to be the sun, moon, and star in Du'a Nudba as all Imams (a) are stated to be that. Moon means to a degree, light is covered when it's not meant to be.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is a binary issue. Either physical miracles happened in the past or they did not.

It they did, or did not, the importance thing is the Spiritual Lessons. That is what @InvestigateTruth is offering.

The material aspect can always be rejected, the spiritual Lessons gained are eternal.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

It they did, or did not, the importance thing is the Spiritual Lessons. That is what @InvestigateTruth is offering.

The material aspect can always be rejected, the spiritual Lessons gained are eternal.

Regards Tony

You guys are saying two different things. He is saying they didn't do miracles, you are saying they did miracles, but only their spiritual lessons remain for those after (who don't witness it first hand).

Can either of you support your stance from your scriptures?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The point is Tony, Ali (a) is said to be the sun, moon, and star in Du'a Nudba as all Imams (a) are stated to be that. Moon means to a degree, light is covered when it's not meant to be.

There are many meanings to the word Sun. So we can see it in many ways.

On this topic I offer this

Baha'u'llah responded to a request by Shaykh Mahmúd, a Muslim divine of 'Akká. He made a compilation of all the traditions attributed to the Prophet of Islám concerning the sacredness of the city of 'Akká (These are available and then Bahá'u'lláh revealed a Tablet in which, commenting on the 'Súriy-i-Va'sh-Shams' in the Qur'án, He disclosed heavenly vistas of knowledge concerning the Word of God. "Every word sent down from the heaven of Divine Revelation", He stated, "is filled with soft-flowing rivers of divine mysteries and wisdom"

Then

"...Bahá'u'lláh also gave in detail, in response to the questioner, several meanings pertaining to the word 'sun', adding that this word has so many other meanings that if ten secretaries were to record His explanations for a period of one or two years, He would still not exhaust its significance.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You guys are saying two different things. He is saying they didn't do miracles, you are saying they did miracles, but only their spiritual lessons remain for those after (who don't witness it first hand).

Can either of you support your stance from your scriptures?

You are not reading what @InvestigateTruth is writing, you need to go back and read his reply.

I will leave this alone now.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

There are many meanings to the word Sun. So we can see it in many ways.

On this topic I offer this

Baha'u'llah responded to a request by Shaykh Mahmúd, a Muslim divine of 'Akká. He made a compilation of all the traditions attributed to the Prophet of Islám concerning the sacredness of the city of 'Akká (These are available and then Bahá'u'lláh revealed a Tablet in which, commenting on the 'Súriy-i-Va'sh-Shams' in the Qur'án, He disclosed heavenly vistas of knowledge concerning the Word of God. "Every word sent down from the heaven of Divine Revelation", He stated, "is filled with soft-flowing rivers of divine mysteries and wisdom"

Then

"...Bahá'u'lláh also gave in detail, in response to the questioner, several meanings pertaining to the word 'sun', adding that this word has so many other meanings that if ten secretaries were to record His explanations for a period of one or two years, He would still not exhaust its significance.

Regards Tony

I agree with this. But it doesn't change that Imams (a) are all suns, moons, stars, but from different angles. For example, "if the star if it disappears" is about Mohammad (s) and his light. This foreshadows that people might turn to darkness and disbelief after his death where his light becomes dim.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You guys are saying two different things. He is saying they didn't do miracles, you are saying they did miracles, but only their spiritual lessons remain for those after (who don't witness it first hand).

Can either of you support your stance from your scriptures?

What about the Biblical Passage I posted in support, you did not comment on that.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I agree with this. But it doesn't change that Imams (a) are all suns, moons, stars, but from different angles. For example, "if the star if it disappears" is about Mohammad (s) and his light. This foreshadows that people might turn to darkness and disbelief after his death where his light becomes dim.

I do not disagree.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

What about the Biblical Passage I posted in support, you did not comment on that.

Regards Tony

Brother, I am asking you, can you tell me either of Baha'allah, Abdul Baha, or Shokh Efendi stance on this issue in a clear manner per your writings?

Don't make it confusing and hard for nothing.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Brother, I am asking you, can you tell me either of Baha'allah, Abdul Baha, or Shokh Efendi stance on this issue in a clear manner per your writings?

Don't make it confusing and hard for nothing.

Sorry off to work Link.

Yes, there is many writings on the topic of miracles in the Baha'i Writings. Another topic most likely.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

I do not disagree.

Regards Tony

This is why I don't understand the idea that Imam Ali (a) is not a manifestation and only Mohammad (s). You can explain it if you like, I never understood it. Mohammad (s) being the source of laws is only partially true. We have hadiths that Sunnah abrogates Sunnah just like Quran abrogates Quran. When we check Quran, we see situation changes, and one situations abrogates another. The same is true of the Sunnah and the hadith continues and says to follow the later Imams (a) whenever there is known conflict. And of course, if people have access to the living Imam, he will clarify.

 

[Link]

Sorry off to work Link.

Yes, there is many writings on the topic of miracles in the Baha'i Writings. Another topic most likely.

Regards Tony

I think @InvestigateTruth and I are at odds with the term majnoon and saher but they both relate to this issue. If miracles performed physically, than accusations of sorcery or possession from evil jinn, seem more likely as explanations, then accusation of Quran being like as if sorcery and accusations that he is mad.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The only other one I can think of is a verse and interpretation by Imam Baqir (a) saying Imam Mahdi (a) will revive the dead hearts. Well Imam Mahdi (a) reviving dead hearts is a said in many du'as and ziyarats, but this doesn't make every verse about "revival of dead" to be metaphoric of that. That's your far fetch interpretation.

Well, if you are serious, then feel free to go back and read my posts, and then reply to them. I quoted many Hadithes.

 

[Link]

Well, if you are serious, then feel free to go back and read my posts, and then reply to them. I quoted many Hadithes.

Alright, I think I did. There are two others, that I directly replied to as well about the Mahdi (a) and God appearing. As well as the one with the light of your lord encompassing the earth. We discussed these and I showed my views.

If there is any hadith you recall I have not commented on than quote it. You quote them over and over again, and I don't repeat my replies over and over again. So maybe you just forgot.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This is why I don't understand the idea that Imam Ali (a) is not a manifestation and only Mohammad (s). You can explain it if you like, I never understood it. Mohammad (s) being the source of laws is only partially true. We have hadiths that Sunnah abrogates Sunnah just like Quran abrogates Quran. When we check Quran, we see situation changes, and one situations abrogates another. The same is true of the Sunnah and the hadith continues and says to follow the later Imams (a) whenever there is known conflict. And of course, if people have access to the living Imam, he will clarify.

If Ali and Muhammad have the same station, why Ali is recorded to have said, he is a slave of Muhammad:



"Hold it there. I am one of the slaves of Muhammad,(s.a.) the Messenger of Allah."



Source: Al-Kafi, H 234, Ch. 6, h 5



"Bereft of you be your mother! I am a salve among the slaves of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.)."



Source: Al-Kafi, H 237, Ch. 6, h 8



Other hadithes also gives Muhammad the station of the source of Knowledge, but not to Ali :



I am the city of the knowledge and 'Ali is its gate, thus whoever seeks the knowledge has to enter the gate. ” “ أنا مدينة العلم و عليّ بابها فمن اراد العلم فليأته من بابه.



Here again, I quote from Shia Hadithes. The Bahai view is the same as Shia sources.

 

[Link]

If Ali and Muhammad have the same station, why Ali is recorded to have said, he is a slave of Muhammad:



"Hold it there. I am one of the slaves of Muhammad,(s.a.) the Messenger of Allah."



Source: Al-Kafi, H 234, Ch. 6, h 5



"Bereft of you be your mother! I am a salve among the slaves of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.)."



Source: Al-Kafi, H 237, Ch. 6, h 8



Other hadithes also gives Muhammad the station of the source of Knowledge, but not to Ali :



I am the city of the knowledge and 'Ali is its gate, thus whoever seeks the knowledge has to enter the gate. ” “ أنا مدينة العلم و عليّ بابها فمن اراد العلم فليأته من بابه.



Here again, I quote from Shia Hadithes. The Bahai view is the same as Shia sources.

And what about the many hadiths that show him equal to him from both Sunni and Shia sources. Yuks, seems I have to show you the bulk of hadiths about this issue.

It's kind of annoying how you always pick the few hadiths vs the bulk of majority of hadiths on an issue.