What if we accepted each others Religion?

[Dawnofhope]

The Universal House of Justice has instructed us to send you the following reply.

In a letter written on behalf of the beloved Guardian to an individual believer there appears the following statement:


It can, therefore, be confidently stated that the teachings of the Faith name Krishna as a Manifestation of God.

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Reading on to the next sentence:

"In light, however, of the other statements of the Guardian, in which he stresses the paucity of our information about the beginnings of Hinduism, we should be cautious not to assert the historical accuracy of specific stories related about Krishna. A similar case where allegorical statements and legends surround the figure of a known Manifestation of God is that of Adam."

The risk for Baha'is is to start making inferences and assumptions that are not supported by the Baha'i writings and risk alienating Hindus.

Examples;

1/ Assuming Krishna is the Founder of Hinduism. No historian or scholar of religion or educated Hindu would believe that as there isn’t any evidence.

2/ Krishna is the only Manifestation that emerged from the Indian subcontinent.

3/ Vaisnavism should be seen as the more correct view of Hinduism as Sha'i Islam is the correct view of Islam.

4/ Many Hindus are yearning for the advent of Kalki as many Christians hope for the Return of Christ.

When the Baha'i writings refer to Hinduism as a religion of Divine origin, there is no good reason to assume such a statement refers to any specific groups in Hinduism such as Vaisnavism.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And what about the many hadiths that show him equal to him from both Sunni and Shia sources. Yuks, seems I have to show you the bulk of hadiths about this issue.

It's kind of annoying how you always pick the few hadiths vs the bulk of majority of hadiths on an issue.

That is because behind all those Hadiths is an element of truth that us up to us to reason and determine.

The key here would be the Quran, what does it say on the topic, about the station of the Imam!

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Reading on to the next sentence:

"In light, however, of the other statements of the Guardian, in which he stresses the paucity of our information about the beginnings of Hinduism, we should be cautious not to assert the historical accuracy of specific stories related about Krishna. A similar case where allegorical statements and legends surround the figure of a known Manifestation of God is that of Adam."

The risk for Baha'is is to start making inferences and assumptions that are not supported by the Baha'i writings and risk alienating Hindus.

Examples;

1/ Assuming Krishna is the Founder of Hinduism. No historian or scholar of religion or educated Hindu would believe that as there isn’t any evidence.

2/ Krishna is the only Manifestation that emerged from the Indian subcontinent.

3/ Vaisnavism should be seen as the more correct view of Hinduism as Sha'i Islam is the correct view of Islam.

4/ Many Hindus are yearning for the advent of Kalki as many Christians hope for the Return of Christ.

When the Baha'i writings refer to Hinduism as a religion of Divine origin, there is no good reason to assume such a statement refers to any specific groups in Hinduism such as Vaisnavism.

Which is the important information.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I think @InvestigateTruth and I are at odds with the term majnoon and saher but they both relate to this issue. If miracles performed physically, than accusations of sorcery or possession from evil jinn, seem more likely as explanations, then accusation of Quran being like as if sorcery and accusations that he is mad.

[61.6] And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the apostle of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Apostle who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic.


Notice, it says, Muhammad came with clear Arguments, but they said this is magic! It does not say, Muhammad came with Miracles, and they called it magic.
This is a clear (Muhkamaat verse). You use this verse to unlock other Mutishabihat verses!


likewise, Quran said “Say, O people of the Book! do ye not disavow us only because we believe in God and in what He hath sent down to us, and in what He hath sent down aforetime, and because most of you are doers of ill?”
5:59

Consider, this verse clearly says, they believed in God, and Revelations. It does not say, they believed because Muhammad performed miracles.



“And had We sent down unto Thee a Book written on parchment, and they had touched it with their hands, the infidels would surely have said ‘This is naught but palpable sorcery."
Quran 6:7


Now explain this verse:

"And if Our revelations are recited unto them in plain terms, they say: This is naught else than a man who would turn you away from what your fathers used to worship; and they say: This is naught else than an invented lie. Those who disbelieve say of the truth when it reacheth them: This is naught else than mere magic." 34:43


Consider, this verse does not say that, when Muhammad performed Miracles, then they say, it is Sorcery. It says when God's revelation are reached to them, they say this is sorcery! Read the verse carefully so the matter becomes clear to you.

What they meant by "sorcery" is "sophistry". In old times they used the word سحر, to also mean sophistry. They considered the logical arguments of the Quran, as tricks of language. For this reason they called it Magic, or سحر.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And what about the many hadiths that show him equal to him from both Sunni and Shia sources. Yuks, seems I have to show you the bulk of hadiths about this issue.

It's kind of annoying how you always pick the few hadiths vs the bulk of majority of hadiths on an issue.

Show me the Hadithes that says, Muhammad and Ali are equal in stations.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm asking if Musa (a) description for example of performing miracles are literal or metaphors.

Which miracles?

 

[Link]

Show me the Hadithes that says, Muhammad and Ali are equal in stations.

Oh I will there’s a lot.

 

[Link]

Which miracles?

The nine signs shown to Pharaoh for example.

 

[Link]

[61.6] And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the apostle of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Apostle who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic.


Notice, it says, Muhammad came with clear Arguments, but they said this is magic! It does not say, Muhammad came with Miracles, and they called it magic.
This is a clear (Muhkamaat verse). You use this verse to unlock other Mutishabihat verses!


likewise, Quran said “Say, O people of the Book! do ye not disavow us only because we believe in God and in what He hath sent down to us, and in what He hath sent down aforetime, and because most of you are doers of ill?”
5:59

Consider, this verse clearly says, they believed in God, and Revelations. It does not say, they believed because Muhammad performed miracles.



“And had We sent down unto Thee a Book written on parchment, and they had touched it with their hands, the infidels would surely have said ‘This is naught but palpable sorcery."
Quran 6:7


Now explain this verse:

"And if Our revelations are recited unto them in plain terms, they say: This is naught else than a man who would turn you away from what your fathers used to worship; and they say: This is naught else than an invented lie. Those who disbelieve say of the truth when it reacheth them: This is naught else than mere magic." 34:43


Consider, this verse does not say that, when Muhammad performed Miracles, then they say, it is Sorcery. It says when God's revelation are reached to them, they say this is sorcery! Read the verse carefully so the matter becomes clear to you.

What they meant by "sorcery" is "sophistry". In old times they used the word سحر, to also mean sophistry. They considered the logical arguments of the Quran, as tricks of language. For this reason they called it Magic, or سحر.

I would check what the Arabic words are originally. Bayanat in Quran like Ayat has more then one application. It includes miracles as clear proofs.

 

[Link]

The truth that came to them includes miracles and if a book came to them from the sky and they touched it would mean they would call that miracle sorcery.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The truth that came to them includes miracles and if a book came to them from the sky and they touched it would mean they would call that miracle sorcery.

You need to prove it from Quran that "truth came to them" means "Miracles". The verse and the context does not have that!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I would check what the Arabic words are originally. Bayanat in Quran like Ayat has more then one application. It includes miracles as clear proofs.

You need to prove it from Quran that Bayyanaat means Miracles. Bayyanaat come from the word Bayaan (بيان) meaning "explanations", and Bayyanaat means "clear arguments". Miracle in Arabic is معجزه

 

[Link]

You need to prove it from Quran that "truth came to them" means "Miracles". The verse and the context does not have that!

The truth is said to come to Pharaoh when miracles were shown. The Quran contextualizes itself with past to Mohammad (s) to future including the Mahdi (a).

 

[Link]

You need to prove it from Quran that Bayyanaat means Miracles. Bayyanaat come from the word Bayaan (بيان) meaning "explanations", and Bayyanaat means "clear arguments". Miracle in Arabic is معجزه

You are making things up.

 

[Link]

The Quran calls Mohammad Al-Bayana in Surah albayana.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The truth is said to come to Pharaoh when miracles were shown. The Quran contextualizes itself with past to Mohammad (s) to future including the Mahdi (a).

The verses I quoted are about Muhammad. They are not about Moses.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You are making things up.

إِنَّ ٱلَّذِینَ یَكۡتُمُونَ مَاۤ أَنزَلۡنَا مِنَ ٱلۡبَیِّنَـٰتِ وَٱلۡهُدَىٰ مِنۢ بَعۡدِ مَا بَیَّنَّـٰهُ لِلنَّاسِ فِی ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ أُو۟لَـٰۤىِٕكَ یَلۡعَنُهُمُ ٱللَّهُ وَیَلۡعَنُهُمُ ٱللَّـٰعِنُونَ




"Indeed, those who conceal what We revealed of the clear proofs, and the Guidance, from after [what] We made clear to the people in the Book - those, curses them Allah and curse them the ones who curse." 2:159


Clear Proofs are "Revealed" in the Book. These are Arguments that Allah makes to establish Truth:



أَمۡ یَقُولُونَ ٱفۡتَرَىٰ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ كَذِبࣰاۖ فَإِن یَشَإِ ٱللَّهُ یَخۡتِمۡ عَلَىٰ قَلۡبِكَۗ وَیَمۡحُ ٱللَّهُ ٱلۡبَـٰطِلَ وَیُحِقُّ ٱلۡحَقَّ بِكَلِمَـٰتِهِۦۤۚ إِنَّهُۥ عَلِیمُۢ بِذَاتِ ٱلصُّدُورِ

"What! Do they say, "He has forged a falsehood against Allah"? But if Allah willed, He could seal up thy heart. And Allah blots out Vanity, and proves the Truth by His Words. For He knows well the secrets of all hearts"


Allah proves the Truth by His Words. Not by Miracles.

Yes, there are apparently many Miracles performed by Prophets as seen in verses of the Quran, but those verses are Mutishabihat! By these Mutishabihat Allah tests mankind. This is how He guides and Misguides.

 

[Link]

إِنَّ ٱلَّذِینَ یَكۡتُمُونَ مَاۤ أَنزَلۡنَا مِنَ ٱلۡبَیِّنَـٰتِ وَٱلۡهُدَىٰ مِنۢ بَعۡدِ مَا بَیَّنَّـٰهُ لِلنَّاسِ فِی ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ أُو۟لَـٰۤىِٕكَ یَلۡعَنُهُمُ ٱللَّهُ وَیَلۡعَنُهُمُ ٱللَّـٰعِنُونَ




"Indeed, those who conceal what We revealed of the clear proofs, and the Guidance, from after [what] We made clear to the people in the Book - those, curses them Allah and curse them the ones who curse." 2:159


Clear Proofs are "Revealed" in the Book. These are Arguments that Allah makes to establish Truth:



أَمۡ یَقُولُونَ ٱفۡتَرَىٰ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ كَذِبࣰاۖ فَإِن یَشَإِ ٱللَّهُ یَخۡتِمۡ عَلَىٰ قَلۡبِكَۗ وَیَمۡحُ ٱللَّهُ ٱلۡبَـٰطِلَ وَیُحِقُّ ٱلۡحَقَّ بِكَلِمَـٰتِهِۦۤۚ إِنَّهُۥ عَلِیمُۢ بِذَاتِ ٱلصُّدُورِ

"What! Do they say, "He has forged a falsehood against Allah"? But if Allah willed, He could seal up thy heart. And Allah blots out Vanity, and proves the Truth by His Words. For He knows well the secrets of all hearts"


Allah proves the Truth by His Words. Not by Miracles.

Yes, there are apparently many Miracles performed by Prophets as seen in verses of the Quran, but those verses are Mutishabihat! By these Mutishabihat Allah tests mankind. This is how He guides and Misguides.

His words include Imams. Imams perform miracles.

 

[Link]

The verses I quoted are about Muhammad. They are not about Moses.

So what’s the purpose of telling us these details about messengers per Quran.

 

[ppp]

Humanity's experience with religion begins with the origins of the first humans.

Well, maybe.