What if we accepted each others Religion?

[loverofhumanity]

So he did physical miracles to those present?

The Prophets of God are all capable of performing miracles but I was not there to witness them so I cannot use that as proof. Baha’u’llah said He did not want miracles He performed publicised because people who were not present could argue. He said the greatest proof is the Person of the Prophet and His Book. There is no greater proof than this.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Ask Vaishnava Hindus if Krishna is a 'manifestation', and a previous one to Baha'u'llah or Muhammad, and stop projecting your ideas onto people whom you know nothing about. It's tiring. Ask Muslims if Muhammad was the manifestation previous to Baha'u'llah. And them, when you ask these questions, please listen to their answers. Go to an Islam forum, or a Hindu forum and ask.

It’s just a description. Other names are Educator, Prophet Muhammad, Supreme Personality of Godhead which is in the Bhagavad-Gita so Hindus will agree with that.

 

[Link]

The Prophets of God are all capable of performing miracles but I was not there to witness them so I cannot use that as proof. Baha’u’llah said He did not want miracles He performed publicised because people who were not present could argue. He said the greatest proof is the Person of the Prophet and His Book. There is no greater proof than this.

I'm asking if Musa (a) description for example of performing miracles are literal or metaphors.

 

[Vinayaka]

It’s just a description. Other names are Educator, Prophet Muhammad, Supreme Personality of Godhead which is in the Bhagavad-Gita so Hindus will agree with that.

ISKCON would agree but I don't thing Sri Vaishnavism adherents would. Within Vaishnavism, there are several schools.

 

[Vinayaka]

Salam

Mohammad (s) and Imams (a) are bahal alimeen (the radiance of the worlds) and light of God.

However, from what I understand, Bahais explain it in a way that Mohammad (s) is a manifestation but Ali (a) is not but under his manifestation. Something like that. It's not totally far fetch idea and not totally off course but is also not true from many angles.

Thanks.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thanks for your comments. One of my very favourite verses I remember all my life since I heard it recited in our Temple in Sydney Rig Veda Book 2 Hymn 28 : 5

Let not my thread, while I weave song, be severed, nor my work's sum, before the time, be shattered.

So from that one small verse alone it had as much effect on me as all the other scriptures including my own.

It became part of my soul that my song be fully sung before my time is up.

What Vedic verse from which translation is that? I googled it and got nothing, except an excerpt from an archeology book. It's pretty vague, and hard to understand. (as is common for the Vedas)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I forgot to mention, there are many hadiths of Mohammad (s) and Imams (a) performing miracles. I want to ask other Bahai members, what's their view on miracles? Did Prophets (a) and Imams (a) perform them or not. @InvestigateTruth tells me they did not and what Quran describes are metaphors.

All the Messengers performed what the believers see as miracles. Abdul'baha said Baha'u'llah performed many miracles.

The key is, that in this age Baha'u'llah has removed them as proof, as they have never been proofs to tye vast majority of humanity, if they were, then every Faith would be united, they would have accepted the Miracles done by all the Messengers.

So a Baha'i will not use them as proof of the Messengers. We have been given Science and reason in this age to determine if the Messages given by God are based on sound logic and reason.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You've shown some hadiths that can be but I think should not be interpreted in the way you suggest.

then quote the Hadithes that I showed, and interpret them the way you think is correct. You never did this though.

I've also shown hadiths to support my view, for example, I've made thread quoting many hadiths of Mohammad (s) being the final Nabi with no Nabi after him. I've shown others.

You are mixing two different things here.
I showed you that, according to many Hadithes, Day of Resurrection, means, when the Qaim comes. He is the one who spiritually resurrect the dead (disbelievers). The idea that Muhammad is Seal of Prophets is another issue. The Qaim can guide the disbelievers to the right path, hence He Resurrects the Dead. This has nothing to do with if Muhammad is the Last Prophet or not.

I've yet to show the many hadiths that support the day of judgment as understood by me. Same with hell and paradise. Same with Angels and Jinn.

You will see you have a few hadiths that maybe interpreted the way you suggest, but not necessarily, while I have grounded myself in the bulk of hadiths which confirm the proper interpretation of Quran.

But it's speaks volumes of how you build your knowledge. You build it on shaky grounds and on what is not clear nor firmly established.

For beliefs, in terms of hadiths, it can't be hadiths in isolation, but must be mutuwatur (so many hadiths about same issue, that it's very doubtful all would've united to make fabrication).

I wait for this. Let's see.

 

[JustGeorge]

ISKCON would agree but I don't thing Sri Vaishnavism adherents would. Within Vaishnavism, there are several schools.

I wondered about that. I know not all Vaishnavas follow the idea of Kalki, either, but am not familiar with which ones do/don't.

What Vedic verse from which translation is that? I googled it and got nothing, except an excerpt from an archeology book. It's pretty vague, and hard to understand. (as is common for the Vedas)

I've found some translations vary pretty vvidely...

 

[Vinayaka]

I wondered about that. I know not all Vaishnavas follow the idea of Kalki, either, but am not familiar with which ones do/don't.

I've found some translations vary pretty vvidely...

Absolutely yes. That's why things like the Gita supersite is useful (Jainarayan talks about it) and also why it makes it even easier to cherrypick. I'm more into what's happening right now, today, as we can change that, or at least have some control. Boss and I are both still recovering from Covid. She tested positive, but I never tested myself, just assumed that's what it was, as we're both so tired in recovery.

Edited: You're ill as well, I see. That brain fog is something else. I feel dumb most of the time, and this intensifies that.

 

[Link]

All the Messengers performed what the believers see as miracles. Abdul'baha said Baha'u'llah performed many miracles.

Okay, because when discussing with @InvestigateTruth he was telling me miracles in physical form discussed in the Quran (for example, Musa (a) miracles and 9 signs) were metaphors.

Can you support what you said from your scripture, because @InvestigateTruth showed a metaphor for Musa's (a) snake, however, it's not full proof that Baha'allah didn't deem it a physical miracle, but was just talking about symbolic meaning behind the physical miracle (potentially).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Salam

Mohammad (s) and Imams (a) are bahal alimeen (the radiance of the worlds) and light of God.

However, from what I understand, Bahais explain it in a way that Mohammad (s) is a manifestation but Ali (a) is not but under his manifestation. Something like that. It's not totally far fetch idea and not totally off course but is also not true from many angles.

How can one consider what Baha'u'llah offered, if you say you are unsure.

I will offer Muhammad was the Sun and Ali the Moon. Ali gained his light from the Sun of the Muhammad Revelation (Peace be upon Then), given to Muhammad by Allah.

Thus they were both the Light of God, Muhammad radiance was as the Sun, Ali was as the Full Moon in all its brilliance, deriving that light fr9m the Sun of Muhammad.

Only the Messengers get the Light directly from Allah, they are the Suns. The Imams, or Disciples are as Moons.

This is logical and a reasoned reply, alao reflecting the Material world. The Suns and the celestial globes that are sustained by those Suns.

This also indicates the unlimited expanse of the Messengers across our universe and all the other worlds of God, reflected in this Tablet by Abdul'baha.

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

So much wonder to discuss, but so silent we must become.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

I showed you that, according to many Hadithes, Day of Resurrection, means, when the Qaim comes. He is the one who spiritually resurrect the dead (disbelievers). The idea that Muhammad is Seal of Prophets is another issue.

You only showed hadiths saying that Iblis was not respited till the day of resurrection but rather he was respited till when Qaim rises. There also hadiths (similar ones you quoted) that Imam Mahdi (a) will kill Satan and end his life. Some of these hadiths will say he was not respited till day of judgment but rather the day when Imam Mahdi (a) rises explicitly, some of them don't, and you quoted the ones which are more ambiguous to that effect.

You interpret to imply what you said. However, there are hadiths that say Satan is given respite till resurrection day (many). I suppose combining the two, you can come up with your interpretation.

However, I can easily say the two don't contradict as well by saying, Satan will be as if dead, since his hidden society defeated and there being no longer a Dajjal/Abu Lahab/Gog/Jibt/Taghut followed by Magog.

So it can he is still alive but as if dead. So I can solve the contradiction that way.

However, as I said before, Satan is still here right now and Dajjal is still here, and evil still reigns the world, so then you say, this will happen sometime later (after Baha'allah has been dead and not during his time). When I pressed the issue, you ended up saying eventually, it means, the Caliphate, and Satan/Caliphate is one and same thing. That's a weird interpretation, how is other dictators ruling Arabs now, not evil and Satan.

Your explanations never make sense. But we had this dialogue a lot. You forget easily it seems.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Okay, because when discussing with @InvestigateTruth he was telling me miracles in physical form discussed in the Quran (for example, Musa (a) miracles and 9 signs) were metaphors.

Can you support what you said from your scripture, because @InvestigateTruth showed a metaphor for Musa's (a) snake, however, it's not full proof that Baha'allah didn't deem it a physical miracle, but was just talking about symbolic meaning behind the physical miracle (potentially).

The Prophets are not powerless. Certainly they have done things that ordinary people cannot do. But all those verses that says, Jesus resurrected the dead, or Moses stick turned to a big snake, or Yuhannah stayes in the belly of fish for 3 days, or Muhammad flied with a donkey, or split the moon are metaphors. These are Mutishabihat. They have Taweel (تاويل). The prophets never did miracles to prove that they are Prophets of God. They have done impossible things that other cannot do. But not performing a show, like a magician.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, because when discussing with @InvestigateTruth he was telling me miracles in physical form discussed in the Quran (for example, Musa (a) miracles and 9 signs) were metaphors.

Can you support what you said from your scripture, because @InvestigateTruth showed a metaphor for Musa's (a) snake, however, it's not full proof that Baha'allah didn't deem it a physical miracle, but was just talking about symbolic meaning behind the physical miracle (potentially).

I see some are both a material realisation, but most importantly they were spiritual Lessons. Many stories are just spirirual lessons

The best lesson I see on this is what Jesus offered in the Bible after performing miracles. Jesys said tell no one, as it was about being Spiritually cleansed. Note he told the person to go and tell the priests that he was purified (Spiritually cleansed) and that he would become a living testimony to the Spirit that is Christ.

Luke 5:13-14 “Tell no one what has happened, but go to the temple priests and show them you've been healed. And to show that you are purified, make an offering for your cleansing, just as Moses commanded. You will become a living testimony to them!”

Thus all quoted miracles in all the Holy Books have a Spiritual Lesson, the material miracle is not important, as the flesh body will soon again be consumed by age, sickness and death.

Yet as Jesus said, if one is Born Again from the flesh into the Spirit that is Christ, death cannot overtake them.

This also explains the Quran verses that tell us Jesus did not die, you cannot kill Christ, the Spirit that is of God.

We could discuss many wonderful things.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You only showed hadiths saying that Iblis was not respited till the day of resurrection but rather he was respited till when Qaim rises. There also hadiths (similar ones you quoted) that Imam Mahdi (a) will kill Satan and end his life. Some of these hadiths will say he was not respited till day of judgment but rather the day when Imam Mahdi (a) rises explicitly, some of them don't, and you quoted the ones which are more ambiguous to that effect.

You interpret to imply what you said. However, there are hadiths that say Satan is given respite till resurrection day (many). I suppose combining the two, you can come up with your interpretation.

However, I can easily say the two don't contradict as well by saying, Satan will be as if dead, since his hidden society defeated and there being no longer a Dajjal/Abu Lahab/Gog/Jibt/Taghut followed by Magog.

So it can he is still alive but as if dead. So I can solve the contradiction that way.

However, as I said before, Satan is still here right now and Dajjal is still here, and evil still reigns the world, so then you say, this will happen sometime later (after Baha'allah has been dead and not during his time). When I pressed the issue, you ended up saying eventually, it means, the Caliphate, and Satan/Caliphate is one and same thing. That's a weird interpretation, how is other dictators ruling Arabs now, not evil and Satan.

Your explanations never make sense. But we had this dialogue a lot. You forget easily it seems.

I showed many other Hadithes as well. You simply never read them then?

 

[Link]

How can one consider what Baha'u'llah offered, if you say you are unsure.

I will offer Muhammad was the Sun and Ali the Moon. Ali gained his light from the Sun of the Muhammad Revelation (Peace be upon Then), given to Muhammad by Allah.

Thus they were both the Light of God, Muhammad radiance was as the Sun, Ali was as the Full Moon in all its brilliance, deriving that light fr9m the Sun of Muhammad.

Only the Messengers get the Light directly from Allah, they are the Suns. The Imams, or Disciples are as Moons.

This is logical and a reasoned reply, alao reflecting the Material world. The Suns and the celestial globes that are sustained by those Suns.

This also indicates the unlimited expanse of the Messengers across our universe and all the other worlds of God, reflected in this Tablet by Abdul'baha.

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

So much wonder to discuss, but so silent we must become.

Regards Tony

The moon is a dark prophecy to be avoided. Ali (a) became like the moon, but this means light diminished, when it was meant to increase. So the 10 nights are dark prophecies of Quran suggesting, that darkness will surround the truth of Ahlulbayt (a).

This is the flaw. Haroun (a) was meant for example to amplify guidance and the Prophets (a) who succeeded Musa (a) meant to amplify, but some were abandoned/denied or some of them killed, and so instead of Haroun (a) unlocking the knot of tongue of Musa (a), he barely survived when Musa (a) when away forty days and who knows how he was treated after Musa (a) died.

This is what I keep saying, that Quran is full of conditional prophecies. They are promises but with conditions. One of these promises if you keep in mind all the talk about past cities destroyed, is that the universal Messenger (ie. the Mahdi) will be a trial for all cities, and whoever denies him, will be physically destroyed. I say physically since the mini context within the Surah as well the broader themes of destroyed nations and cities all point to this meaning. But it's also a prophecy meant to be avoided and warnings is to make us avoid this. The delay of Imam Mahdi (a) appearing has to do with making the world avoid this dark prophecy that will come about if they don't heed the warnings.

 

[Link]

I showed many other Hadithes as well. You simply never read them then?

The only other one I can think of is a verse and interpretation by Imam Baqir (a) saying Imam Mahdi (a) will revive the dead hearts. Well Imam Mahdi (a) reviving dead hearts is a said in many du'as and ziyarats, but this doesn't make every verse about "revival of dead" to be metaphoric of that. That's your far fetch interpretation.

 

[Link]

The Prophets are not powerless. Certainly they have done things that ordinary people cannot do. But all those verses that says, Jesus resurrected the dead, or Moses stick turned to a big snake, or Yuhannah stayes in the belly of fish for 3 days, or Muhammad flied with a donkey, or split the moon are metaphors. These are Mutishabihat. They have Taweel (تاويل). The prophets never did miracles to prove that they are Prophets of God. They have done impossible things that other cannot do. But not performing a show, like a magician.

Seems like other members of your faith disagree with you.

 

[JustGeorge]

Absolutely yes. That's why things like the Gita supersite is useful (Jainarayan talks about it) and also why it makes it even easier to cherrypick. I'm more into what's happening right now, today, as we can change that, or at least have some control. Boss and I are both still recovering from Covid. She tested positive, but I never tested myself, just assumed that's what it was, as we're both so tired in recovery.

Edited: You're ill as well, I see. That brain fog is something else. I feel dumb most of the time, and this intensifies that.

Gita supersite... haven't heard of it.

Yes, the brain fog is unreal... I am unsure vvith vvhat I'm ill vvith, and have been mostly ignoring it because it vvas quite mild. Crept up to kick my butt yesterday. Doing better overall today, but I feel like my mind is in mud.