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What if you KNEW there was a God.

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The OP added this in post 5




If you knew the Salafis were following God's true teachings, would you try to be the best (Salafi) Muslim you could, even when these teachings contradict your present morality?

The point I was making was that it would be irrational and objectively harmful not to follow these teachings. I don't follow them now because I doubt their veracity, but given God's existence I would have to reevaluate everything that I know.

Agree?
Disagree.

I'm not an adherent of the Divine Command Theory of morality. The fact that something is endorsed by God does not necessarily make it moral.

And as I touched on earlier, my conscience sometimes interferes with my self-interest. Even if I was threatened with Hell or other divine nastiness, I probably wouldn't be able to sustain behaviour that goes against my own morals.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Oh... so God might've had good motives for slowly torturing a baby for a week until he dies?

I have to admit: I *am* pretty quick to condemn people who torture babies to death.


I thought we were assuming for this thought experiment that the Bible is accurate, no?

A child in scripture is a seed of knowledge, a neuron.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
How would your life be affected if video evidence was found of Moses parting the red Sea; Jesus walking on water; God using his own finger to write the ten commandments. And furthermore that video was brought to you by Jesus himself with Adam, Noah, Abraham with a few cherubim and some trumpets for good measure.

If this happened, how do you think it would change you? Do you think you would start praying, stop lying, cease from pride and lust? Would you go preach the gospel? Would your political views change?

What I'm actually asking is, honestly speaking, how much of what you do, think and say that is contrary what the bible teaches - ten commandments, beatitudes etc. - is because of your uncertainty about the existence of God and the accuracy of the bible and how much of it is a result of you simply not being willing to live your life differently?

For one, those all happen consciously and internally, not mythologically and literally.

Two, the commandments are written on two tablets of stone, the physical western and eastern hemispheres of the brain where the two cheribum are.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
For the purposes of this thought experiment, is the story of the death of David and Bathsheba's son one of these "errors and additions"? Is the flood?


The fact that I could ask doesn't mean I would find the explanation satisfactory. I think it's reasonable to expect that monstrous acts have monstrous motives.

The ark is the brain/mind and the flood occurs consciously and internally. The destruction of ones own created and world of ego/self.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
How would your life be affected if video evidence was found of Moses parting the red Sea; Jesus walking on water; God using his own finger to write the ten commandments. And furthermore that video was brought to you by Jesus himself with Adam, Noah, Abraham with a few cherubim and some trumpets for good measure.

If this happened, how do you think it would change you? Do you think you would start praying, stop lying, cease from pride and lust? Would you go preach the gospel? Would your political views change?

What I'm actually asking is, honestly speaking, how much of what you do, think and say that is contrary what the bible teaches - ten commandments, beatitudes etc. - is because of your uncertainty about the existence of God and the accuracy of the bible and how much of it is a result of you simply not being willing to live your life differently?

My life would remain pretty much the same.

Why would knowing that a given supernatural entity exists entail in me ( or you ) worshipping said being ?
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
My life would remain pretty much the same.

Why would knowing that a given supernatural entity exists entail in me ( or you ) worshipping said being ?

Thanks for your answer. That is actually the point I was trying to prove. For all the proof atheists and luke-warm christians always claim they want it is actually all just a smoke screen. They are quite happy with how they are living their lives and God being real would be a real disturbance rather than a help. So they prefer to believe there is no God and they don't really want to know if there is one - at least not for any reason other than curiosity.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Thanks for your answer. That is actually the point I was trying to prove. For all the proof atheists and luke-warm christians always claim they want it is actually all just a smoke screen. They are quite happy with how they are living their lives and God being real would be a real disturbance rather than a help. So they prefer to believe there is no God and they don't really want to know if there is one - at least not for any reason other than curiosity.

I am going to try to put things on perspective: Assuming you now know that God does NOT exist, but that Satan somehow DOES exist, would you start following Satan and doing as he wishes ?
Would you worship him ?

I supose it is safe to assume you wouldn't, right?

It is pretty much the same with me. I view the christian god as a deeply immoral [EDIT: The original word on this post was 'immortal'. What I meant to say was 'immoral'. ] being, and as such I still have no reason to have anything to do with him even if he does exist.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
I am going to try to put things on perspective: Assuming you now know that God does NOT exist, but that Satan somehow DOES exist, would you start following Satan and doing as he wishes ?
Would you worship him ?

I supose it is safe to assume you wouldn't, right?

It is pretty much the same with me. I view the christian god as a deeply immoral [EDIT: The original word on this post was 'immortal'. What I meant to say was 'immoral'. ] being, and as such I still have no reason to have anything to do with him even if he does exist.

If God does not Exist and Satan exists and he is the one who created this beautiful planet as well as my wonderful wife and children and all the great people if have known; if he is the one who gave me my intellect and who inspires to all the Good I do then I will consider this Satan to be God and I will love him and follow him.
 
How would your life be affected if video evidence was found of Moses parting the red Sea; Jesus walking on water; God using his own finger to write the ten commandments. And furthermore that video was brought to you by Jesus himself with Adam, Noah, Abraham with a few cherubim and some trumpets for good measure.

If this happened, how do you think it would change you? Do you think you would start praying, stop lying, cease from pride and lust? Would you go preach the gospel? Would your political views change?

What I'm actually asking is, honestly speaking, how much of what you do, think and say that is contrary what the bible teaches - ten commandments, beatitudes etc. - is because of your uncertainty about the existence of God and the accuracy of the bible and how much of it is a result of you simply not being willing to live your life differently?

I don't think I'd have much issue following Jesus if he were real. I don't think I'm anymore of a liar or more prideful or lustful than the average human being. Thankfully, Jesus recognizes human beings are not perfect and does not expect us to be perfect. So, I don't think I'd have to change much as a person. Politically, I may have to become a communist, Jesus was all about sharing the wealth and spoke against people who greedily hoarded wealth. I would have to become a Pacifist as well, turn the other cheek and all that. I find it endlessly amusing how most "Christians" I've met are not very Christ-like.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
If God does not Exist and Satan exists and he is the one who created this beautiful planet as well as my wonderful wife and children and all the great people if have known; if he is the one who gave me my intellect and who inspires to all the Good I do then I will consider this Satan to be God and I will love him and follow him.

Would you overlook all the bad things he has done ? Would you overlook how he will cause the death of your wife and children ? Would you overlook all the evil and suffering he is responsible for ?

I wouldn't.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Would you overlook all the bad things he has done ? Would you overlook how he will cause the death of your wife and children ? Would you overlook all the evil and suffering he is responsible for ?

I wouldn't.

I wouldn't overlook anything. I would simply ask for an explanation.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
I think if I knew that there was a god, that I would tell him that he was not doing he's job well at all, that I would give him the sake, and give the job that he could not do to myself, which is what I have done.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
I think if I knew that there was a god, that I would tell him that he was not doing he's job well at all, that I would give him the sake, and give the job that he could not do to myself, which is what I have done.

So you've been ensuring earth isn't stuck by any asteriods? My word how do you even get time to post?!!!
 

Aiviu

Active Member
To knew if there was a god, is like to be 'in god'. It will be the last loss we will have, the loss of our thoughts about god. The loss of a fragile image one draw from god which was only a self-reflection to find out what the real 'image' of god is.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
No. They lied about why they were going there and they were under no threat. To this day they have not given a single good reason why their bombing of Iraq was justified despite being asked many times. Furthermore the are not God and have no right to remove people out of this world without a good reason: which they have not provided.



Because he is the Creator. Just like I would assume that an owner of a company has a better reason moving all the company's money to a different bank account than the creditors clerk. Incidentally the bank would also make the same assumption.



So someone is not a hypocrite who gives people they're just reward especially after he has repeatedly warned them and given them lots of time to change.



You equate all killing with murder when referring to God (I know you don't actually believe all killing is murder). God reserves the right to take anyone out of this earth when he deems fit. In fact you seem to be working under the impression that humans belong on this earth. Like it is their right to be here. Humans didn't put themselves here. God put them here for his own reason. And he has decreed that this place should only be a temporary abode. So why are you so angry when God takes people out of it? It really boggles my mind.



A parent is a delivery boy, a middle man. No women sits and thinks about the creation of her child. She just leads her normal life and lets nature take its course. Humans do not create anyone - God does the creating. And certainly no parent has any role in the creation of the human soul or spirit. The body is just a machine. God will decide when he wants that spirit to leave the earth.

Funny thing is though, the way you argued this point, someone would think you are against abortion - which I doubt you are.



I don't think there is. The reason why it would never happen is because God knows each of us perfectly. So at the final judgement when he decrees that we should go to heaven or hell it will be with the knowledge that we have finally reached our equilibrium and that we will never change. So although it will not happen that someone will go from heaven to hell or from hell to heaven that is because no one will change after that point. But it stands to reason that if bad people are in hell then there are no good people. And if a person was good they would not be in hell.



The bible says nothing about God being able to do illogical things. The only time I remember the Bible talking about God being able to do the impossible is in reference to rich people going to heaven. Jesus said it would be impossible for a rich person to make it to heaven on their own. But he said with God it would not be impossible.

God has stated his purpose: "For this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" And he has all the power and knowledge to accomplish that. But that doesn't mean he can use illogical means to do so. Apparently God only wants in heaven who want to be there. And so hypnotizing people seems to be out of the question. Seeing visions and miracles doesn't seem to help either as evidenced by the children of Israel's disobedience after seeing: fire come down from heaven, the red sea parting, God speaking out of a cloud of fire and manna falling from heaven amongst other things. So clearly there can be no short cuts with human beings. They can only be taught "line upon line, precept upon precept" through their own experience the good from the evil.

And you may naturally ask, why didn't God make us less stubborn. There is a part of us God did not create and which he did not create. In Doctrine and Covenants 93 we have the following:
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;​

These verses are very clear. The intelligence of man (man's consciousness) and all the elements (the building blocks of the universe) are eternal. They have always been there and always will be. God took the elements and created bodies for man's consciousness. He is now trying to enlighten man. If we reject God we will be sent back to the darkness and chaos from which we came - which will be hell for us. That sounds quite fair to me.



I have not determined that God is moral. I have repeatedly said that I do not have the knowledge by which to judge a universal being. I have only judged that God is likely to be right. Having said so it does not mean I will not seek to understand his reasons for doing things the way he does - of course I will seek understanding. But what I won't do is pass judgement on him that his intentions are evil when I do not understand the ultimate (eternal) consequence of all he does.



A parent did not create the child. If I create a painting do I not have the right to destroy it? But you don't have the right to destroy the painting since it does not belong you and was not made by you. Parents have no right to kill their children because they did not create them. Evidence that parents do not create their children can be found in the fact that they cannot bring their children back to life once the kill them. God has shown repeatedly that he can.



Again you are confusing things. God understands why he does what he does. Why then are you saying your morality is superior to God's



Of course they can't understand why it is bad - except that their more knowledgeable parents believe it is bad. But they have adopted it as a rule in their lives that they will listen to their parents until such time as they are of age to understand things in a similar way that their parents do.

You see it is folly to assume human beings have original ideas for morality. We are all influenced in what we believe is right or wrong. So the child teenager who decides he will no longer listen to his parents usually ends up listening to his friends - or pastor, or teacher or an author. He doesn't cease to be influenced - he simply chooses a different source of influence. So he is in no better moral position than the teenager who has decided to continue to let his parents influence his moral judgement.



Except if that person is the creator of the universe.



I see no reason why I should give difference to someone who knows more than me about maths in moral matters. That is like expecting me to trust Einstein with a heart operation. That is not where his expertise lie.

But God apparently knows everything so I clearly have good reason to trust him.

Suppose we live in vastly more advanced society.

We can make robots, or androids, that are conscious, feel pain, love, affection, and everything that we can also feel.

Do you think that we will have the right to kill them when we see fit?

Ciao

- viole
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Suppose we live in vastly more advanced society.

We can make robots, or androids, that are conscious, feel pain, love, affection, and everything that we can also feel.

Do you think that we will have the right to kill them when we see fit?

Ciao

- viole

Yes I do!
 
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