Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Does the creator of something also reserve the right to do whatever they wish with their creation? If an advanced scientist created a woman from scratch, atom-by-atom, would he be completely within his rights to force her to marry him even if it was against her will? Or, would it be better to give her the free choice to marry him or not, with the consequences for choosing to not marry him being her own destruction? If you were the very woman in question, would his terms seem reasonable to you?
It is interesting (read: horrific) that you give Saddam the right to remove innocent people out of this world without any good reason, but you object to USA removing guilty people out of this world with good reason. If you really want to find God, instead of just the fairy tales you were brought up with, the path to God goes through an understanding of the 2003 Iraq war.
It is YOU that is peddling the propaganda that Iraq was better off under Saddam than as a free people.
They WERE provided before the war. Decades before the war in fact. And not just about Saddam, but about ALL countries living under cruel dictators like the USSR was. We weren't opposed to places like Cuba because they had WMD. And you've got this entire thing the wrong way around anyway. It is YOU PERSONALLY who should have been opposed to cruel dictators like Saddam, and it is YOU PERSONALLY who should have written to the US government BEFORE 2003, imploring them to liberate the Iraqi people from this cruel dictator. Ditto for other dictators like Iran. What sort of religion do you follow where you yawn when Saddam is chopping out someone's tongue, and to add insult to injury, when someone (the US) chooses to expend blood and treasure in a venture that will end LEGAL TONGUE-CHOPPING, you actively stand in the way. A disgusting religion, that's what!
Wrong. Moral people like me were arguing for liberation of the whole world, not just Iraq. And Bush himself gave more arguments than just WMD if you had bothered to actually listen to him.
I'm Australian, which, like most western governments, including the US, is quite clean. What are you comparing Australia/US to, in order to claim that they are corrupt? Certainly not comparing to Saddam's Iraq. And why do you (pretend to) care about corruption in Australia/US when you don't give a SINGLE DAMN about LEGAL RAPE (Uday abducting women off the street) in Saddam's Iraq?
Only because you have no moral compass at all. The choice is between a holocaust under Saddam, with legal rape, torture, mutilation and murder, or a democratic Iraq where those things are outlawed, and if someone rapes you - no matter who - you can turn to the police, the courts, the media to seek redress.
Why do you only have tears for those killed BY TERRORISTS (illegally - not legally) in a democratic Iraq, and have zero tears whatsoever for the MILLIONS who died under Saddam's regime? Your crocodile tears fool absolutely no-one, and you will never find God until you hang your head in shame and say "oh my god, what have I done?", similar to the soul-searching the Germans did after WW2.
Next time, please be honest and say "well, I've been given plenty of good reasons why the liberation of Iraq was a good thing, but I refuse to even read it, because it will expose and possibly shatter my entire disgusting and fragile worldview".
In late 2002/early 2003 I was absolutely horrified that opinion polls in Australia were showing the public was split 50/50 on the proposed Iraq war. Previously I had been living under an illusion that Australia was THE greatest liberator the world had ever seen. We were the ONLY ones who showed up on-time to every international war we could get into. And indeed, in Desert Storm opinion polls showed more than 90% of Australians supported the war, and only one single politician voted against the action. I was proud of this record. Despite being born here, and having spent most of my life here, I couldn't understand why the figure was 50 instead of 90. I debated and debated, but wasn't able to budge anyone, no matter what human rights abuse I presented. Then (before the war), Bush pointed out that Saddam was even ordering the rape of Iraqi women, and that if this wasn't evil, then the word has no meaning. I thought that pointing out that Iraq had institutionalized rape would surely sway the 50% anti-war Australians. It didn't. They didn't budge. It was at that time that I realized I didn't understand Australians, and that the War on Terror needed to be fought in Australia, not just Afghanistan et al.
Sorry, I'll concede it was hundreds of thousands rather than millions. Something like 200,000 were killed because of the pointless war he started against Iran: Iran–Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and 30,000 in Desert Storm: Gulf War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .
I totally disagree. Its democracy may not be the world's best, but it's a damned sight better than it was when Saddam was getting 100% of the vote. Also note that the Iraqis have more parties to choose from than the US does, and a higher turnout rate too. So by some measures Iraq's democracy is SUPERIOR to the US. Regardless, Utopia is not something I ever expected to achieve overnight (or ever), and I'd like you to provide evidence that even 1% of the pro-war were expecting overnight Utopia.
Yes I do, and so do about 50% of Iraqis, according to opinion polls. If I were Iraqi, I'd be in that 50% category too, and I would challenge you to explain why I shouldn't be allowed to vote for my government and should instead be subjected to the threat of having my tongue cut out by my own government. I would make that same argument to the immoral 50% of Iraq who don't give a damn about me having my tongue chopped out too.
Again you use the same straw man. Show me evidence of even 1% of the pro-war believing that. Personally I had no idea what percentage of Iraqis were going to support liberation. We had data from Afghanistan showing that 85% supported the invasion, but the only "figure" we had from Iraq was 100% allegedly supporting Saddam. Actually, I did guess that the Iraqis would have a similar figure of support as the Afghans, but I was wrong. It was 50% instead of 85%. Part of fighting the War on Terror requires answering that exact question - why are we getting 50/50 in Iraq instead of 85/15 in Afghanistan, and in fact, why isn't the number 99.9/0.1? What's going on?
And indeed they are doing exactly that in Iraq already.
Which is exactly what we did.
Again. They are. Their democracy has fielded forces to protect their freedom. What more do you want them to do? They are shedding blood and treasure to maintain their freedom. The West only provides air support and training.
That is a misnomer. It is not "white man's burden" it is "free people's burden". South Korea has just as much responsibility to help the Iraqis obtain freedom as France does. And indeed, that is exactly what happened. The South Koreans did in fact help out. It was the white French who turned a blind eye to institutionalized rape, not the South Koreans.
So if you saw a woman being raped outside your house, you would refuse to intervene, or even call the police, and just call out to her "sorry love, can't help, the road to hell is paved with good intentions"? And if it is YOUR daughter being raped, you want me to say the same thing to her?
The consequences of the actions in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya are ALL a case of replacing an enemy dictator with a friendly democracy. It is YOU who isn't to be absolved from the fact that you are an accessory to institutionalized (legal!!!) rape and torture and murder and mutilation. That was the consequences of YOUR action - opposing freedom.
We say that France was liberated (from Nazi Germany) in 1944. Is it wrong to call it that, given the blood price paid by both the allied forces and the French population?
Well ISIS first arose in Syria, where there was no western military support. Are you saying that the Syrians were wrong/bad for attempting to rise up against their dictator, because the dictator was better able to keep Islamic terrorists at bay?