What is a female??

[Kfox]

Yes, I can see how you would not be able to see how the trans-female would be shut out from one side, and totally foolish-looking on the other,

Why would a trans female look foolish playing sports with other men?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

So the question becomes, what to do about biological women? Their needs and what is fair for them is routinely disregarded as irrelevant in the matter, secondary at best. What is important is that biological males have their way, men and trans women alike. Meanwhile with biological females history is repeating itself, they are secondary and barely consequential. Discussions next to never mention transmen because they are of no threat to men identifying males. And female athletes, well who cares?

Even so, perhaps the focus should shift to how to accommodate women since it doesn't look like a consensus on transwomen athletes is likely to happen anytime soon.

So, anyone? What to do about female athletes? The current situation obviously isn't working so there does need to be an alternative, they need to be placed somewhere.

@Callisto I do not disagree with you. I have said (in this very thread) I don't know how to resolve the issue. But not knowing how to fix it does not mean that you should stop trying!

I am perfectly well aware that a human who has grown up with buckets of testosterone coursing through their veins is going to be stronger, larger, have more lung capacity and more, than someone who did not have that advantageous hormone. What I'm trying to suggest is that organizations from the medical profession, the psychological profession, and the IOC are actually trying to think about this scientifically.

Have they answered the question? Have they got there yet? Well, I don't think so, and a bunch of us here don't think so, and any number of girls on sports teams don't think so. But does the fact that they haven't solved it yet mean that they should stop trying?

The more important question though, in my mind, is are people who are "not quite like us," (also known as diversity) merit any consideration? Should we not at least make the effort?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Why would a trans female look foolish playing sports with other men?

I can't help you with your lack of ability to picture the situation.

 

[Kfox]

I can't help you with your lack of ability to picture the situation.

Really? On what Planet does a bunch of biological men (regardless of what’s going on inside of their heads) playing sports look foolish, but Lia Thomas standing on the Podium next to a couple of biological women look……normal?
lia thomas standing on the podium - Yahoo Image Search Results

 

[Callisto]

@Callisto I do not disagree with you. I have said (in this very thread) I don't know how to resolve the issue. But not knowing how to fix it does not mean that you should stop trying!

I am perfectly well aware that a human who has grown up with buckets of testosterone coursing through their veins is going to be stronger, larger, have more lung capacity and more, than someone who did not have that advantageous hormone. What I'm trying to suggest is that organizations from the medical profession, the psychological profession, and the IOC are actually trying to think about this scientifically.

Have they answered the question? Have they got there yet? Well, I don't think so, and a bunch of us here don't think so, and any number of girls on sports teams don't think so. But does the fact that they haven't solved it yet mean that they should stop trying?

btw, I used your quote as a springboard and asked for anyone to chime in (just in case it seemed I was putting you on the spot).

I don't think anyone has suggested the various professionals give up. Unfortunately, they're still trying to debate biology with ideology and vice versa. So, in effect, spinning their wheels.

The more important question though, in my mind, is are people who are "not quite like us," (also known as diversity) merit any consideration? Should we not at least make the effort?

The issue isn't people who are different don't merit consideration. Rather, the main point is how to accommodate a group without impinging upon another group. Everyone deserves space and opportunity but the answer isn't to take over someone else's in the process.

 

[Willamena]

With all the transgender threads on the forum, can we clear up what a female is? What makes someone a female?

To me a female in general is a person that can bear offspring, has ovaries, has periods, experiences menopause, has a vagina, etc etc.

What is a female in your words or by a definition of your choice?

The preffix "fe-" means woman, so a female is technically a woman-man.

Yeah, it's a gay thing.

We's all da gay.

FYI man is "vir," so you're all that cool nerdy Centari on Babylon 5.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Separating sports according to biology never did any of that.

We're not talking about roles, we're talking about sports. Why do you have a problem with separating sports according to biology?

Because females wanna play sports as well; they just can't compete against men so we gave them their own sports league.

Sorry, I missed that you were responding to a post specifically about sports and assumed you were making a broader social prescription.

Yeah, sports has always had distinct classes for biological characteristics, weight class, ability, etc.. I frankly think it's weird that sports is such a hotbed at the moment when it almost feels like it has its own inbuilt solution to the problem.

 

[wellwisher]

@Callisto I do not disagree with you. I have said (in this very thread) I don't know how to resolve the issue. But not knowing how to fix it does not mean that you should stop trying!

I am perfectly well aware that a human who has grown up with buckets of testosterone coursing through their veins is going to be stronger, larger, have more lung capacity and more, than someone who did not have that advantageous hormone. What I'm trying to suggest is that organizations from the medical profession, the psychological profession, and the IOC are actually trying to think about this scientifically.

Have they answered the question? Have they got there yet? Well, I don't think so, and a bunch of us here don't think so, and any number of girls on sports teams don't think so. But does the fact that they haven't solved it yet mean that they should stop trying?

The more important question though, in my mind, is are people who are "not quite like us," (also known as diversity) merit any consideration? Should we not at least make the effort?

The value of defining female and/or male comes down to whether one prefer clarity or a fuzzy dice uncertainty POV for reality, with fuzzy dice not as useful for rational thinking. I often dump on casino science, which is science that it too dependent on the same math used by gambling casinos, politicians and marketeers. The results of fuzzy dice research always strikes me as a scam waiting to happen. Coffee is good today but not tomorrow, based on new studies.

Fuzzy dice in politics is a way to divide people but creating fuzzy dice uncertainty between people, so people have suspicion. They will start to divide hoping to create semi-clarity among peers. Does anyone see the parallel to this and others topic? This scam appears to be working for the Left. Science needs to lead by the higher rational example, and not be de-evolved by political science math that helps the shady side of life, compete.

The bottom line is we have will and choice. The fuzzy dice Left tries to deny will and choice so nobody is held accountable for their choices. This allows humans to choose to become natural, unnatural and even artificial but call it all fuzzy dice natural.

If we factor out will and choice and add the fuzzy dice you get bizarro world. Can anyone show me where nature has hospitals where animals go to be artificially altered with drugs and surgery? If we take away fuzzy dice math and science this all is moot. Adding artificial is not natural since nature uses natural selection to allow for integrated self containment. You are you and not a bumper sticker.

The Left appear to teach its base to use their will and choice to choose unnatural and artificial and then tries to brain wash everyone into thinking unnatural and artificial is the same natural, due to the fuzzy dice of nature; unique exceptions, that have little to do with humans. In their mind distinctions between species even operate with fuzzy dice.

This is being driven by fuzzy dice medicine and fuzzy dice politics each with a common agenda; money. If fuzzy dice science could not use casino math would their science theory still be useful or would it become more like all a semi- illusion front, that will still be limited to trial and error and finding jackpots to make money?

We now have this irrational bumper sticker; DEI; diversity, equity and inclusion. How does transgender and all the medical expenses needed to become artificial, allow equity for the tax payer who are expected to foot their bill? Are all the transgenders who get free care, going to make it equal by mowing tax payer lawns or cleaning tax payer bathrooms to make this money transfer equitable?

Fuzzy dice thinking does not do good math. It has the smell of a rip off led by the corrupt leaders of the Left, many of which should be in jail for their action over the past 10 years. They has used fuzzy dice uncertainty to blur even the lines between legal and illegal, justice and injustice.

My solution is if you wish to become trans get the money from the political party who came up with the bright idea and benefits by the lobbyists and campaign donations. Do not rip off the general tax fund to run your scam, or you will get nothing. There are plenty of rich lefties that you can shake down who also live by the laws of fuzzy dice. Rip off your own kind and let the rational live naturally. That is called equity. Charity is where people feel equitable giving of their surplus. Forcing anything makes it inequitable.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Can anyone show me where nature has hospitals where animals go to be artificially altered with drugs and surgery?

Nature manages it without hospitals, durgs and surgery, don't you know. If you ignore insects, in about 30% of all animal species individuals can produce both male and female gametes, usually not simultaneously, and can change back and forth. This is the case with clownfish and also many invertebrates such as some cnidarians (a group that includes hydras and jellyfish), sea sponges, annelids, mollusks, flatworms, starfish and arthropods. Among vertebrates, sex change is widespread in fish and even occurs in some frog species. As such, this ability has evolved independently on many occasions, making it extremely adaptable in certain circumstances.

Take clownfish. In the movie Finding Nemo, Marlin loses his wife and offspring, so goes in search of his only remaining son, Nemo. In real life, Marlin wouldn't have bothered -- he'd have simply found another mate. Clownfish (Amphiprion) form pairs that live together for years in symbiosis with an anemone. The species is vulnerable to predation, so it is common for one of the individuals in a pair to die. When that happens, the remaining fish searches for a new companion. If it turns out that both are male, the larger one of the two changes its sex definitively and becomes a female, as in this species they are the larger and more dominant.

 

[England my lionheart]

I did not suggest otherwise.

Sometimes, you know, problems can be very complex, intractable, difficult to resolve -- or even impossible to resolve to everyone's satisfaction. But if we truly care about people, other than just ourselves or those close to us, then I think we should continue to try and look for what we can do.

You know, there was a time, not so long ago (and during my lifetime) when there little to know accommodation for people with physical difficulties -- for example being confined to a wheel chair. Just crossing the street could be a nightmare, because curbs weren't dipped at the crosswalks, let alone trying to cope with the endless stairs our modern cities are filled with. Getting on buses and trains? Hah, wishful thinking! People with that sort of disability mostly just stayed home.

Well, we're spending a lot of money these days trying to rectify that. Where I live, in Toronto, our subway system has been spending literally hundreds of millions a year making getting to and from train platforms accessible. All of our buses and streetcars have been replaced with accessible ones, at huge cost.

I don't know what the solution is for trans people wanting to play sports with the gender with which they identify -- and maybe in the end there really isn't one -- but just arbitrarily telling people to "stay where you belong" strikes me as one of the less considerate attempts.

I’m a man but listening to women here the consensus is that they don’t have a problem with men identifying as women but cannot accept a biological man in their spaces such as toilets,changing rooms or sport.

I don’t know what the answer is either other than a biological man will always be a man,why should women accommodate their fantasy?.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I’m a man but listening to women here the consensus is that they don’t have a problem with men identifying as women but cannot accept a biological man in their spaces such as toilets,changing rooms or sport.

I don’t know what the answer is either other than a biological man will always be a man,why should women accommodate their fantasy?.

The current evidence indicates that anatomically modern humans were naked in prehistory for at least 90,000 years before the invention of clothing. Today, isolated indigenous peoples in tropical climates continue to be without clothing in many everyday activities.

We are way too fussed about such things.

Here's a question for you: do you, or do you not, in a general way know what women's bodies look like?

I'll answer in my own way: As a gay man, there are straight men in the pubs I go to who are afraid to be in the bathroom with me, because I might want to "look at their parts." Flash! As a gay man, I know what their parts look like! Hell, I even know what they taste like. I've no need to try furtive peeking.

 

[England my lionheart]

The current evidence indicates that anatomically modern humans were naked in prehistory for at least 90,000 years before the invention of clothing. Today, isolated indigenous peoples in tropical climates continue to be without clothing in many everyday activities.

We are way too fussed about such things.

Here's a question for you: do you, or do you not, in a general way know what women's bodies look like?

I'll answer in my own way: As a gay man, there are straight men in the pubs I go to who are afraid to be in the bathroom with me, because I might want to "look at their parts." Flash! As a gay man, I know what their parts look like! Hell, I even know what they taste like. I've no need to try furtive peeking.

I know what they look like,I’ve known plenty intimately and threre is no substitute imo.

 

[Kfox]

Here's a question for you: do you, or do you not, in a general way know what women's bodies look like?

I'll answer in my own way: As a gay man, there are straight men in the pubs I go to who are afraid to be in the bathroom with me, because I might want to "look at their parts." Flash! As a gay man, I know what their parts look like! Hell, I even know what they taste like. I've no need to try furtive peeking.

I've got a News Flash for you. Straight guys don't "sneak a peek" at a woman's nakedness because they don't know what a naked woman's body looks like, they do it for other reasons. I'm sure if you think long and hard enough, you will be able to figure that one out. If not, let me know and I'll fill you in.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I've got a News Flash for you. Straight guys don't "sneak a peek" at a woman's nakedness because they don't know what a naked woman's body looks like, they do it for other reasons. I'm sure if you think long and hard enough, you will be able to figure that one out. If not, let me know and I'll fill you in.

No, thank you, don't need your help.

Do you know why Muslim men are supposed to be driven sexually mad by the sight of women's hair? Because women's hair has been commanded to be hidden. You're not a Muslim man, so I'm willing to be seeing hair on top of a woman's head doesn't drive you to rapist thoughts. 80,000 years ago, I'm willing to be it was a woman's face, eyes and gaze upon him that most attracted a man, because all the women around him were naked (as was he), and that was therefore a commonplace.

We're interested in what is hidden, secrets, what is "forbidden." If it's not forbidden, we tend to accept it as everyday stuff, of little real interest.

 

[Audie]

A woman is Salma Hayek or a man called Kevin in a dress,let’s face it,if you have a dick you ain’t no chic.

And if a person has both m and f organs?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

And if a person has both m and f organs?

Well, for starters, one might envy their ability to go f*** themselves!

 

[Kfox]

And if a person has both m and f organs?

Intersex.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Intersex.

The problem is this:
If you claim that you have the authority to determine what tests are correct to use for rights, the same can be done to you.

Let me explain: Take any human variation for which sex is also a variation and use the following method:
-We decide what is correct for society as such based on the outcome of a test and that can't be doubted.
-We now test for something, where you come out of the test as abnormal and declare that decides what rights you have in society. In fact we could declare that you are not even a human as such based on that test.

That is the problem, because while the tests can be done objective, how we act on them, is not objective or science, that is social. There are no objective facts, when it comes to rights. They are in all cases social constructs and that includes your approach, but also mine.

 

[Audie]

Intersex.

You mean....not m or f???

 

[Kfox]

You mean....not m or f???

No; intersex is M or F, it’s more of a deformity/abnormality often associated with M or F; this is the case with all mammals not just human. An intersex male might have everything a male has except chromosomes that are XX, or some type of mismatch of male and female genitals.