What is Christianity, and what makes a Christian a Christian?

[JacobEzra.]

So... if you don't believe that God is beside himself, you're not a real Christian?

Seriously, though: this portion of the Creed suggests not only a personal God, but a corporeal one who exists in some sort of physical form. Do you think that a person has to accept this to be a Christian?

I posted the creed to see what people from..less orthodox, beliefs would agree to. Not arguing one has to believe.

Now that I got that out of the way.

If they are Non-Trinity, then you have a point. It does not suggest what you say, as much as Trinity.

 

[JacobEzra.]

it is possible to believe in the things jesus said and thus be a xtian without believing in a creator. what matters is the here and now, not things which nobody can prove.

I do not see how such can be. I can see how you can take alot of his teachings and incorporate them into an atheist lifestyle. But that would involve cherry picking and ignoring the religious teachings, which far outweigh the ones you can use as atheist.

Nope. I don't believe that Jesus was his own father.

You seem to not understand what was written.

virgin birth is quite frankly kind of a ridiculous myth that i can't take seriously, and i prefer to focus on jesus' life rather than his death.

Both are significant.

 

[Katzpur]

What about parts of the creed?

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.

I would say that Mormons believe that Jesus Christ, under the direction of the Father, was the actual Creator.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

the only Son of God,

I'd say Jesus was the "Only Begotten Son of God" but that we are all God's spirit children.

eternally begotten of the Father,

God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.

I'm just not comfortable with this language. I don't see this terminology in the Bible at all. Maybe I just don't know what "Light from Light" is supposed to mean. And I definitely don't believe that the Son is "one in Being with the Father." Furthermore, the Bible doesn't say the two are "one in Being." I believe they are "one in will and purpose" but two separate beings, both of whom have exactly the same divine qualities. This would be Mormonism's basic problem with the Creed.

Through him all things were made.

Through Him (the Father) or through Him (the Son)? This seems to be contradicting the earlier statement.

For us men and for our salvation

he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

I'm not sure if you believe that God was the Father of Christ or that the Holy Ghost was. Which is it?

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,

he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

I agree with that, but I would be interested in your explaining to me how a single Being can sit on His own right hand side.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,

and his kingdom will have no end.

I'm okay with that.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,

who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.

I don't believe the Holy Ghost is the giver of life. I believe God the Father is the giver of life. And where in the Bible are we told that the Holy Spirit preceeds from the Father and the Son?

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come.

And I have no problem with this.

What is bolded. What do you think?[/quote]

 

[Katzpur]

Seriously, though: this portion of the Creed suggests not only a personal God, but a corporeal one who exists in some sort of physical form.

Darned right it does. And that's what this Christian believes.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I posted the creed to see what people from..less orthodox, beliefs would agree to. Not arguing one has to believe.

Fair enough.

Now that I got that out of the way.

If they are Non-Trinity, then you have a point. It does not suggest what you say, as much as Trinity.

How can it not suggest what I say? "Right hand of the Father" suggests that the father is both corporeal (he has hands) and physical (he exists in a realm with location - e.g. right and left - IOW, some sort of dimensional space). Same with the statement that Jesus Christ is sitting: this suggests that he has a physical body (since otherwise, how could he sit?) and exists in some sort of dimensional space with an "up" and a "down" (since otherwise, "seated" is meaningless).

I'm not sure how the question of Trinity vs. non-Trinity is relevant here. I'm just going by the plain text of the Creed.

Edit: it might seem like I'm harping on something off-topic here, but I'll bring it back to a relevant point in a bit.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Darned right it does. And that's what this Christian believes.

Fair enough, but I know that many Christians don't believe in a corporeal, physical God, including many who say their beliefs adhere to the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed. I'm just curious how they reconcile things.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Fair enough.


How can it not suggest what I say? "Right hand of the Father" suggests that the father is both corporeal (he has hands) and physical (he exists in a realm with location - e.g. right and left - IOW, some sort of dimensional space). Same with the statement that Jesus Christ is sitting: this suggests that he has a physical body (since otherwise, how could he sit?) and exists in some sort of dimensional space with an "up" and a "down" (since otherwise, "seated" is meaningless).

I'm not sure how the question of Trinity vs. non-Trinity is relevant here. I'm just going by the plain text of the Creed.

Edit: it might seem like I'm harping on something off-topic here, but I'll bring it back to a relevant point in a bit.

I take it "Right hand of the Father" is symbolic.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It's come up several times in discussions and debates on this forum. People will be arguing about Christianity without having a set definition. I have seen people claim that Christianity is accepting the entire Bible as fact, only the New Testament, only the Gospels, and some strip it down even less than that.
What I want to know is, what is the bare-bones definition of Christianity? The definition that if you do not adhere to it you cannot legitimately call yourself a Christian. Must you believe Jesus existed? That he still exists? That the Bible is true? Must you believe in God? Does the story of the virgin birth matter? Etc.
Anyone who answers, please check your answer for any hidden suppositions and add them to your answer. I'm tired of people posting oversimplified definitions.

Christianity designates followers of Christ Jesus as Christians.
-Acts 11v26; 26v28; 1st Peter 4v16

What it means to be Christian [Mark 16v24] to disown self and follow Jesus.
-1st Peter 2v21

Jesus idea of a true Christian is found at John [13vs34,35] to love as he loved.

The Bible itself is claiming at 2nd Timothy [3vs16,17] that all Scripture [whole Bible] is inspired by God. That includes believing Jesus still exists.
-1st Peter 1v21

Jesus claimed the Scriptures are religious truth.-John 17v17

Belief is shown in doing spiritual works.
- Romans 10v10; James 1v27; 2v17,26.
Including immersion in Baptism.
-Matt 28v19; Acts 2v38; 3v19.
Keeping the necessary things of Acts 15 vs20,29
Paying taxes. [Caesar's things to Caesar]
Strip off old personality out of harmony with Scripture.
-Gal 5vs19-21; 1st Cor 6vs9-11; Eph 4vs17-24; Col 3vs5-10
Put on new or Christ-like personality.
-Gal 5vs22,23; Col 3vs12-14
Trying to make disciples.
- Matt 24v14; Matt 28vs19,20.
Teaching God's kingdom is a real kingdom government with Christ as crowned king that will bring lasting benefits to earth.
-Daniel 7vs13,14; 2v44; Isaiah 9v7; Micah 4vs3,4; Psalm 46v9; 37vs11,29.

Make disciples because Matthew [25vs31,32] talks of the soon time that Jesus will separate people on earth. Getting rid of the wicked.-
[Isa. 11vs3,4; Rev 19 vs11,15; Psalm 92v7; Proverbs 2vs20-22;10v30; 21v18]
And, the humble sheep-like people that are alive on earth at that time can remain alive on earth right into the start of Jesus messianic [1000-year] reign over earth when Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global peace on earth toward men of goodwill.

 

[JacobEzra.]

I simply, as I said to the other poster, just wanted to know the...less orthodox view of the creed. It was not an argumentative challenge, and if It seemed like that I am sorry. I was just curious. But I will try and answer your questions neutrally since I am not really caring to argue over doctrines or theology.

I'm just not comfortable with this language. I don't see this terminology in the Bible at all. Maybe I just don't know what "Light from Light" is supposed to mean. And I definitely don't believe that the Son is "one in Being with the Father." Furthermore, the Bible doesn't say the two are "one in Being." I believe they are "one in will and purpose" but two separate beings, both of whom have exactly the same divine qualities. This would be Mormonism's basic problem with the Creed.

I think this is what the creed is saying. They are different but one in essence. As the Trinity states, the Father and Son are one but are two in origin. That the Son was begotten from the Father, as stated in Gospel of St. John 1 Chapter.

Through Him (the Father) or through Him (the Son)? This seems to be contradicting the earlier statement.

Through the Son. From Gospel of St. John 1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] The same was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men. [5] And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it...........

[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

I'm not sure if you believe that God was the Father of Christ or that the Holy Ghost was. Which is it?

John 3
[16] For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. [17] For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him

Luke 1
[34] And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? [35] And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

I agree with that, but I would be interested in your explaining to me how a single Being can sit on His own right hand side.

Mark 16
[19] And the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God. [20] But they going forth preached everywhere: the Lord working withal, and confirming the word with signs that followed.


1 Peter 3
[21] Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. [22] Who is on the right hand of God, swallowing down death, that we might be made heirs of life everlasting: being gone into heaven, the angels and powers and virtues being made subject to him.

I don't believe the Holy Ghost is the giver of life. I believe God the Father is the giver of life. And where in the Bible are we told that the Holy Spirit preceeds from the Father and the Son?

John 15
[26] But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me. [27] And you shall give testimony, because you are with me from the beginning.

Luke 11
[13] If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father from heaven give the good Spirit to them that ask him?

Matthew 28
[19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

2 Peter 1
[19] And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.[21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Me Myself]

Pope Benedict XVI is an apostle? :biglaugh: I bet even he doesn't know that! Why don't you find me something on a Catholic website that says he's an apostle. That I'd love to see. So who are the other apostles? I believe there were always twelve in the beginning.

Look, Jacob, I really don't want to get into a huge argument with you. I would almost always rather debate with a Catholic than with a Protestant. Generally speaking, I find that they show greater respect for other religions than most Protestants. You can go right ahead and believe that your pope is an apostle if you like and I'm not even going to try to change your mind. I probably wouldn't have even gotten into it with you except that it annoyed me to have you call me a heretic, when I know myself to be every bit as much a Christian as you are. I don't care how you want to spin it, implying that my beliefs are so heretical as to by almost Muslim is a real slap in the face.

Actually, every catholic is considered an apostol,if I remember correctly, apostle simply meant somebody who came with good news.

 

[Me Myself]

So...to be a Christian, you don't have to believe Jesus existed?

...both of those can be done without belief in Jesus...

Well, it´s a term and it can be taken in different ways.

I think that it is enough to follow the teachings of Christ to be a Christian.

Naturally, this will change depending on what you think his teachings are, but the important part to be labeled as a "Christian" is to conciously follow the path of the good shepard (or whatever other ephithet you believe in when thinking of ) of Jesus Christ.

So basically for me being a Christian is to (try to) follow Christ´s steps (or what you believe his steps are)

I don´t even think you need to belive he was an actual person. To follow the good example of a myth is good enough for the way I define it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I take it "Right hand of the Father" is symbolic.

Okay (and here's where I get back on topic): you kinda said before that the Nicene Creed is the standard for Christianty. Maybe we can have a debate over whether particular people who don't adhere to the Creed aren't Christian, but we can agree that people who do adhere to the Creed are Christian, right?

Now... you say that you interpret this part if the Creed symbolically. If this works, then why couldn't someone adhere to other parts of the Creed symbolically? The virginity of Mary, for instance. Or the "We believe in one God" part.

 

[InChrist]

I believe the scriptures indicate and Jesus stated that one must be born again.


Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ John 3:6-7


Many people think they are Christians because they believe in God or Jesus, or go to church, do good deeds and consider themselves nice people, or keep the 10 commandments most of the time, or for any other number of similar reasons. I used to think I was a Christian, but I actually wasn’t.

It was not until I really came to the place of acknowledging my complete need of a Savior and believing the gospel. At this point I realized I was desperately helpless without Jesus Christ and there was nothing I could do but repent and believe that He did it all when died on the cross for my sins and rose again conquering death on my behalf. At that moment I was born again and entered the kingdom of God. I knew I was changed, different than before and I knew then what it meant to be a Christian

Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins Colossians 1:13-14

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

I believe according to the scriptures a person must be born again in order to be a true Christian and it is a relationship with Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, it is not following or adhering to a religion.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Okay (and here's where I get back on topic): you kinda said before that the Nicene Creed is the standard for Christianty. Maybe we can have a debate over whether particular people who don't adhere to the Creed aren't Christian, but we can agree that people who do adhere to the Creed are Christian, right?

Now... you say that you interpret this part if the Creed symbolically. If this works, then why couldn't someone adhere to other parts of the Creed symbolically? The virginity of Mary, for instance. Or the "We believe in one God" part.

Even if someone takes it literally, they can still, believe in the rest of the gospel and believe Christ to still be the judge at the end as well as God the Son.

But how can one believe the whole Gospel and not believe in God.

On the Virgin Birth. That would disregard the divine origins of Jesus and the divine nature of God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Even if someone takes it literally, they can still, believe in the rest of the gospel and believe Christ to still be the judge at the end as well as God the Son.

But I'm talking about someone who takes the Creed - or parts of it, anyhow - symbolically or metaphorically, not literally.

But how can one believe the whole Gospel and not believe in God.

Do you have to believe - or even have read - the Gospel to be a Christian? The Creed doesn't mention it.

On the Virgin Birth. That would disregard the divine origins of Jesus and the divine nature of God.

"Virginal" = "divine"?

 

[JacobEzra.]

Do you have to believe - or even have read - the Gospel to be a Christian? The Creed doesn't mention it.

I have read, and know the Gospel. The Creed is only a summary of the religion. Its not the whole thing. Just like a summary of a book is not the whole book or contains its whole. Its just a general peek.

"Virginal" = "divine"?

Virgin birth shows the supernatural origins of the person Jesus Christ on top of his actions.

 

[Katzpur]

I simply, as I said to the other poster, just wanted to know the...less orthodox view of the creed. It was not an argumentative challenge, and if It seemed like that I am sorry. I was just curious.

I didn't take it as being argumentative. I just thought you were looking for an explanation, so that's what I gave you.

I think this is what the creed is saying. They are different but one in essence. As the Trinity states, the Father and Son are one but are two in origin.

Seriously, I think this is the only point with which I have any real strong issues. I don't really even understand what "one in essence" means. I hear the words "essence" and "substance" being used interchangeably, and yet the Bible doesn't use either word. To me, water is a substance; air is a substance; flesh is a substance; gold is a substance. I can't get my head around either of those words being used to describe God, and I definitely can't believe that the Father and the Son are the same substance. If they were, it would seem to me that they would be just one being. And yes, that's what you just got through saying they were -- one being. I believe they are two beings, equally divine and sharing the same title: God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't really even understand what "one in essence" means.

"Essence" is French for gasoline. Does that help?

 

[DreadFish]

Well, there are plenty of things to debate, and this only proves that being a "Christian" has a mostly arbitrary definition.

To me, I think what makes a Christian and Christian is following the teachings of Jesus.
But, following the teachings of Jesus also means that you have to rid yourself of all belongings and live a simple life, so its not very easy for most people to do that in this modern world. I've actually thought about this a lot, and its practically impossible for most modern people to actually follow Jesus to a T, because it requires a semi ascetic lifestyle without home and possessions. IMO, modern Christianity is watered down from its original form.

Anyway, to the bare bones and basics, I think that it means following Jesus' teachings. It doesnt matter if you believe what Paul wrote and all those councils and such IMO

 

[Katzpur]

"Essence" is French for gasoline. Does that help?

Okay. Somehow I always throught it was the word for the smell of perfume. Seriously, if someone could actually tell me what "essence" or "substance" means as the words relate to God, I might be able to start to get my head around the Trinity. But in years of trying to get it, I've been hopelessly unsuccessful.