What is Christianity, and what makes a Christian a Christian?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Heretical Christians are still Christians, but who have perverted the truth, or gone astray.

Okay - so a Christian who doesn't adhere to the Nicene Creed is still a Christian, even if you think he believes false teachings. Thank you.

So to get back to the topic of the thread, what would a person have to do or believe before you would say not just "that person's a heretical Christian", but "that person's not a Christian", period?

The OP asked if there is a set definition of a Christian. And the oldest set definition of a Christian is one who holds onto what is outlined in the Creed.

No, that's the oldest set definition of orthodoxy in one part of the Christian spectrum. This is not the same thing as the definition of "Christian".

 

[JacobEzra.]

What came out of thin air was the thought that the son of god was of equal substance to the father which will not be found in scripture. It creates a premise that you have to hold in order to tie the scriptures to read with a trinity interpretation.

Many will read into Jesus and the father are "one" but don't take it that far when reading that all humans are the image of god.

Jesus' divinity made up out of thin air? LOL you must be joking.

 

[idav]

Jesus' divinity made up out of thin air? LOL you must be joking.

I said that Jesus being of equal in substance was made up. That is the basis of the Nicene creed which is outside the bible. Based on that creed the premise is established and a different way of interpreting scripture is required.

 

[JacobEzra.]

So to get back to the topic of the thread, what would a person have to do or believe before you would say not just "that person's a heretical Christian", but "that person's not a Christian", period?

The extremly heretical Christians, are just about non-Christians. Unitarians, Jw's and Mormons for an example. Though to be fair, with the most liberal definition of "Christian", its anyone who expresses to believe and follow Christ. Just when extremely heretical, they can be regarded as no different then a Muslim.

What can a person do to be said " that person is not a christian"? I guess go to a religion which does not follow Jesus.

No, that's the oldest set definition of orthodoxy in one part of the Christian spectrum. This is not the same thing as the definition of "Christian".

Its the definition of a full Christian.

 

[JacobEzra.]

I said that Jesus being of equal in substance was made up. That is the basis of the Nicene creed which is outside the bible. Based on that creed the premise is established and a different way of interpreting scripture is required.

How is it different way? Dosen't seem it. Trinity doctrine did not come out of thin air, and reconciles all of the contradiction in the Gospel regarding Jesus' divinity, origin and sonship.

 

[idav]

How is it different way? Dosen't seem it. Trinity doctrine did not come out of thin air, and reconciles all of the contradiction in the Gospel regarding Jesus' divinity, origin and sonship.

It was not required to reconcile anything. Jesus being just a man of God reconciles just fine. The premise of being one substance with God the father is not anything Jesus ever said.

 

[JacobEzra.]

It was not required to reconcile anything. Jesus being just a man of God reconciles just fine. The premise of being one substance with God the father is not anything Jesus ever said.

Thats a lie. Jesus said he and the Father were one and showed the unity many times. He proved he was more then just a mere man.

 

[Katzpur]

Nicene Creed sums up everything that a Christian was and is, before and after the 325 ad

I'm afraid I must disagree with that statement, Jacob. The Nicene Creed sums up the way the educated Greek scholars and churchmen of the 4th century understood God. It incorporates neo-platonic philosophic thought prevelant among its writers, but foreign to the first-century Jewish-Christian believers in Jesus Christ.

 

[Katzpur]

The extremly heretical Christians, are just about non-Christians. Unitarians, Jw's and Mormons for an example... Just when extremely heretical, they can be regarded as no different then a Muslim.

So I'm an extremely heretical Christian who just happens to believe every last word the Bible has to say about Jesus Christ. (How many Muslims do you know who can say that?) And you're a "real" Christian. Thanks for the heads up. I certainly wouldn't have guessed you were a Christian by your self-righteous attitude.

 

[JacobEzra.]

So I'm an extremely heretical Christian who just happens to believe every last word the Bible has to say about Jesus Christ. (How many Muslims do you know who can say that?) And you're a "real" Christian. Thanks for the heads up. I certainly wouldn't have guessed you were a Christian by your self-righteous attitude.

How do I have a "Self-Righteous Attitude"? As with any heresy, its labeled as a heresy. You do not have any ties to orthodoxy, so why care what you are labeled in orthodoxy?

Im pretty sure LSD hierarchy believe the Catholic Church to be way off and false in practice and belief. True, right?

Its not an attack on your person. I am sure your a fine good person.

 

[JacobEzra.]

I'm afraid I must disagree with that statement, Jacob. The Nicene Creed sums up the way the educated Greek scholars and churchmen of the 4th century understood God. It incorporates neo-platonic philosophic thought prevelant among its writers, but foreign to the first-century Jewish-Christian believers in Jesus Christ.

It did not come out of no where.

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth,

of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,

God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven:

by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

*Note: The word "catholic" with a lower case 'c' does not mean the Roman Catholic Church, but the universal Christian Church as a whole.

Can you point out what exactly here was just made up and is not biblical?

 

[Katzpur]

As with any heresy, its labeled as a heresy.

So who defines orthodoxy anyway? The Catholic Church.

Im pretty sure LSD hierarchy believe the Catholic Church to be way off and false in practice and belief. True, right?

I don't know anything about the LSD heirarchy, but the LDS heirarchy has spoken very highly of what is good and true about Catholicism. We are taught not to cavalierly throw around hateful words like "heretic" when speaking of religions besides our own.

Its not an attack on your person. I am sure your a fine good person.

I can be if I'm in the mood.

 

[Katzpur]

It did not come out of no where.

Where on earth did you get the idea that I suggested it came out of nowhere?

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth,

of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,

God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven:

by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

*Note: The word "catholic" with a lower case 'c' does not mean the Roman Catholic Church, but the universal Christian Church as a whole.

Can you point out what exactly here was just made up and is not biblical?

I could address two or three of the statements if you really want me to do so. I definitely don't have as much of an issue with the Nicene Creed as I do with the Athanasian Creed, which gives me a headache just to read.

My major point of contention is that if there is absolutely nothing in the Creed that cannot be found in the Bible, what's the point of it? And what's the point of insisting that a person believe the Creed if he is to be called "Christian" if he believes the Bible? If there is nothing in the Creed that is not in the Bible, why is a belief in the creed the qualifier?

 

[JacobEzra.]

So who defines orthodoxy anyway? The Catholic Church.

.

The original Church. Founded by Christ, and carried on by the Apostles

 

[JacobEzra.]

Where on earth did you get the idea that I suggested it came out of nowhere?

I could address two or three of the statements if you really want me to do so. I definitely don't have as much of an issue with the Nicene Creed as I do with the Athanasian Creed, which gives me a headache just to read.

My major point of contention is that if there is absolutely nothing in the Creed that cannot be found in the Bible, what's the point of it? And what's the point of insisting that a person believe the Creed if he is to be called "Christian" if he believes the Bible? If there is nothing in the Creed that is not in the Bible, why is a belief in the creed the qualifier?

Because its the minimum required. The set definition of what a Christian is. And the interpretation that is founded by the successors of the Apostles, led by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Katzpur]

The original Church. Founded by Christ, and carried on by the Apostles

The original Church, founded by Christ was carried on my the Apostles only until their deaths. After that, apostolic authority was lost. The Church which existed in the first century A.D. did not require followers of Jesus Christ to subscribe to some creed and you cannot even begin to pretend otherwise.

 

[JacobEzra.]

The original Church, founded by Christ was carried on my the Apostles only until their deaths. After that, apostolic authority was lost.

True, if they did not ordain sucessors

That would make a distinct quality called "apostolic"

 

[Katzpur]

True, if they did not ordain sucessors

That would make a distinct quality called "apostolic"

And who are the apostles today? Name one.

 

[Katzpur]

Because its the minimum required. The set definition of what a Christian is. And the interpretation that is founded by the successors of the Apostles, led by the Holy Spirit.

All you're saying is that the Catholic Church in 325 A.D. decided that from then on, everybody had to believe in the Nicene Creed and that if they didn't, they weren't Christians. Of course you know what they did to the non-Christians, don't you? Kind of made belief in the Creed a no-brainer. It was actually quite a bit like it would be today to try to be a practicing Christian in Iraq.

 

[JacobEzra.]

And who are the apostles today? Name one.

Pope Benedict XVI