What is Contemplative Christianity?

[sojourner]

You are absolutely right that we build a wall, a barrier of protection against the enemy because Jesus even warned us about false teachings.

You're building a wall around what is not your enemy. Yo've misidentified who the enemy is here.

 

[Windwalker]

I think that in the context of Xianity, there are or should be, solid parameters. This goes for any type of 'Xian contemplation'', as well. In all honesty, from some examples decribing the outcomes from some of these endeavors, I believe that a false notion or notions of what deity is etc., is being presented.

False notions of deity. Such as those that don't subscribe tightly with the theologically defined image of God created by the minds and interpretations of fundamentalists? Again, I'm waiting for actual evidence that shows meditation practices have a highly negative effect on its practitioners, such that it contradicts the well-established and well-researched evidence that says the exact opposite. The only thing I hear are two complaints:

1. Some people have had a negative experience or went off the deep end, such as those who suffer from mental issues (demon possession in the language of 2000 years ago). Therefore, no one should go near it because less than 1% of practitioners have had negative results!
2. It changes how you think about things and you may no longer believe in God the way you once did as a staunch Bible-believing fundamentalist

Any other options that support this negative view of meditation?

 

[sojourner]

I think that in the context of Xianity, there are or should be, solid parameters. This goes for any type of 'Xian contemplation'', as well. In all honesty, from some examples decribing the outcomes from some of these endeavors, I believe that a false notion or notions of what deity is etc., is being presented.

What should those parameters be? What should inform those parameters? What "notion" of Deity ought to be seen as "correct?"

 

[Desert Snake]

What should those parameters be? What should inform those parameters? What "notion" of Deity ought to be seen as "correct?"

Eh, doesn't matter. I'm out of this debate.

 

[Windwalker]

What debate?

 

[lovemuffin]

I have fallen well behind this thread, but regarding "false" conceptions of God, the major reason why, earlier on, I tried to present examples of ancient Christian mystical theology is that it makes the point that such notions about God are authentically and historically Christian, with roots in both the N.T. and the earliest church fathers, including Ignatius of Antioch, and therefore it's not reasonable to dismiss them without falling into something like a No-True-Scotsman fallacy about Christianity, at least from any objective or critical point of view. It is true that throughout history there have been many, often contradictory, concepts about the nature of God and of human knowledge and experience of God, but it is also true that conceptions that allow for and emphasize human experiential knowledge of God are part of the mainstream of Christian theology from the beginning.

None of this is to say that Christian contemplative practice, or Christian "meditation", is identical to yoga, or to zen, or to any other particular practice, which would certainly be an oversimplification, but it seems like the rejection of the possibility of Christian "meditation" entails both an equivocation of Christian practices with non-Christian ones (alongside a misunderstanding of those other practices, but that is a different question), and an unsupported belief about what must count as "true" Christian theology, in spite of the history of Christianity.

 

[Yoshua]

2 Tim says the law and prophets are inspired, nothing about today's Bible and nothing about The Word but is telling you to study the Law, but you have studied instead a man named Mcarthur.

Hi Brick,

I believed that the Scriptures (OT/NT) are inspired writings, and the absolute word of God. I did not studied John Mcarthur. Windwalker is asking a name, so I give him the name. We, evangelicals are not dependent on people instead we are conforming to the Scriptures as guided by the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 1 is also not talking about the Bible. The Word isn't the Bible. The Bible does not call itself the Word. It was not written by evangelicals.

Hebrews is the strongest, easiest example that the Bible isn't the Word. It says it twice. First its says it in Hebrews 1:2, then again it says it in Hebrews 4:12, both of which you quoted but did not listen to.

God's Final Word in His Son
1. God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2. in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Hebrew said that God spoken to Jesus Christ in these last days.
2 Tim. 2:8-9
8. Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,
9. for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned.

Paul said there is the Word of God and there is a gospel.

Heb. 4:12
12. For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

If you are saying that the Bible is not the Word of God, why you quoted the book of Hebrew verse?
I don’t get what you want to imply here? Can you please expound your idea?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Why on earth would more evangelical ministers parrotting more of the same misinformation make a difference? None of them are authorities on the subject. You do realize the logic fallacy in your argument here? It's what's known as the Bandwagon Fallacy. The appeal to the popularity of a point of view does not make it true or have any more validity whatsoever. It simply means they are all following the same mistakes. If anything it convinces me they don't do their own research or think for themselves.

Hi Windwalker,

Please don’t eat your word. You are asking a name, then I give you a name. I don’t expect that you will believe on what he will say. I just gave what you are requesting and you challenge me to do it. If I give a hundred or thousand names to you, it does not matter with you since you based your beliefs by experience instead of the word of God. You may have the freedom to research by yourself and nobody is hindering you to do that. I just started it to inform, and not by personal intentions.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

You have already stated the Bible does not teach anything about the meditation we practice. Therefore, according to your argument, the Bible does not say ANYTHING whatsoever about it. It also doesn't say anything negative, since it says nothing at all, according to you. You cannot then use the Bible as a source of authority to tell you our practices are bad, that the open you to the devil, or anything at all.

I will make it clear with you. Your perspective toward the Scriptures and worldview is different from me. The particular practice that I’m pointing at is the Centering and Breathe prayer plus some other contemplative ways of meditating. Why we said that those practices are not in accordance with the Scripture? This is because apart from the word of God, there is no such practices that Jesus, or God is telling us to do that kind of practices.

This is why I asked what your sources of authority against meditation were, since you seem to be saying things that are not in the Bible itself. Now you come back and say the Bible is your source of authority on this subject? OK then,where? Where does it expressly teach the claptrap you are parrotting from the ill-informed, speculating, fearmongering, irrational sources are teaching? Where? Chapter and verse for this one: "Meditation practice opens you to demonic possession". Let's start with this one, since you have no other valid source to back you up with here. Where does it say that the meditation we practice is "dangerous"?

I think we already reconciled with Sojourner on how we meditate, we differ in how we view the working of the Holy Spirit in meditation plus some interpretation of ‘Be Still.’ I already posted the article about the danger of those practices. I believed you are seeking to know what is Centering and Breathe Prayer. I don’t know if you already look at it. We avoid this kind of prayer technique because Jesus did not teach us those technique, as simple as that. Jesus told us to follow Step no. 1, then we follow step no. 1. That's it.

As I said earlier, you lost this debate back on page one, but you just are just refusing to accept it. But by all means, let's continue though. I enjoy the platform to correct the ignorance taught from the pulpits of these ignorant ministers so others can see just what sort of baseless drivel is being taught by them.

Windwalker, before we start discussing this thread, I don’t do some debate contest here. It does not matter to me who win or not if that is what you want to do, but not me. I don’t have to accept anything. If the Word of God is my source and my basis, I have no reason to do some debate contest here. It would come out that I just want to fill my flesh by winning an argument. This is for those who don’t have a basis or standards. I place this thread in the debate section, because I’m looking forward that this will become a hot issue with the practitioners of contemplative teachings.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

What does any of this have to do with me saying that we are able to clearly discern the difference between the voices of darkness and that of God in meditation practice? Are you back to this argument that "The Word" = The Bible? Phooey. We've been down this path many times, and yet you keep failing to address the many points showing the error of that. "In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God....... and the Bible became flesh and dwelt among us." That's your version of what Logos looks like. That, or "And the logos became the Bible and sits on the shelf of your bookcase".

Hi Windwalker,

Determining the voice of darkness (if you will believe in the darkness) had a point of reference—the word of God. Again, apart from the Scripture stated, outside of it is already prone--to be use by the enemy (evil). This is tested by my experience, and it is really true. My friend.

1 John 4:1
1. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

We are not discussing about John 1:1 here. For clarification purposes, the word that I’m implying are the Scriptures; the Bible is just a term for compilation of the Scriptures.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

I am never less than astounded at your ability to take what someone says and make it one extreme or the other, yet you manage, against all reason, to do so again and again. This is of course what is meant by black and white thinking. Extremist thought. Let's examine rationally what I said in the hopes it make put a chink in that mode of extreme binary thinking.

What I explicitly stated, and carefully chose my words as I did in a hope to avoid extremist thought like this, was this, "Some people who have mental illnesses, could in fact mistake what is being presented to them, and the wiring of their brains may misinterpret these things.... I have always said that someone should not practice meditation if they do not have a relatively stable psyche. " I am not saying that fundamentalists are mentally unstable (though "some" are I'm quite certain). I am in fact NOT saying fundamentalist should not practice meditation. I believe they should. I believe anyone, with a relatively stable psyche, from liberals to staunch conservative evangelicals, would benefit from it.

Yes, you are right. We also meditate but the way on how to do the meditate differ.

But those in that spectrum of beliefs who have mental instability should proceed with caution, or only by the direction and supervision of a healthcare professional or some qualified teacher who deals with those who have mental issues they struggle with, such as a clinical depression, suicidal ideations, schizophrenia, and so forth. But then I also don't believe those with issues like schizophrenia should be getting involved in religion itself! The issues of their mind can take the religious imagery and symbolism to extremes and go off the deep end in believing they are the messiah, or some special prophet with the secret message to share with the world of the lost. In other words they are already unstable to begin with. To expose them to the depths of their own psyches they do not have the stability of mind to be able to learn from and integrate into themselves, could do more damage than good.

I honestly believe that these fearmongerings of the Baptist preachers you cite, if they have any basis at all, at best maybe heard of some cases of people who "dabbled" in it and ended up going off the deepend, believing they have a "special message from the Christ" and whatnot. But if you look at these people as individuals, chances are very good that you will find some history of mental illness going on there, family history, unmedicated patients seeking for a "miracle" from God in the form of a magic healing, and the like. But these folks do these things regardless of meditation practices. So the basis "might" be there, but only by looking at the extreme cases, the very small percentage of the whole, seizing on the less than 1% while ignoring the data from the 99.9% who have extraordinarily positive results.

This is what I mean by "irrational" fearmongering. The only possible data they have is rare, and understandable as mental, or psychological problems. Some people, as I said, "some" should not practice it for those reasons. That does not irrationally therefore translate into "meditation opens you to the devil! It's an evil practice not supported by the Bible!!!". *sigh*

There are some people who did not believe in experience, and that is not me. I fully believe what you are experiencing, and I don’t have any doubts that those may build up your faith based on you spiritual paths. But for ours, we solely based in the Scripture, the do’s and don’t of the Scripture.

Experiences are usually taken into unbelief situation due to undocumented evidences or basis. If somebody shared his/her supernatural experience, some will look at it as they have a psychological problem. But in reality (not all of them), there is truth inside on what he is experiencing.

If someone is demonically possessed, don’t call a fireman or attorney. Call a pastor. If someone who is mentally disturbed, call a psychiatrist.

Well, this is irrational nonsense. "supernatural desire of the flesh"? What in the world does not garbage mean? Nothing that makes sense to me.

What I mean here is that man’s act to seek supernatural things is the same as the desire of the flesh. Human is flesh.

I would say it is because they substituted their reading of the Bible for actual spiritual awakening and awareness, substituting Christ for a book, and God for their religion. They no longer could hear and see with the ear and eyes of the heart and soul and spirit. Darkened in their own religious imaginations. "The letter kills, but the Spirit makes alive"

What holds us to restrain, you ask? The Spirit itself. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control"

BTW, I do believe the Word of God is a lamp unto my feet. I believe that Light of God is not restricted to words in a book. I understand the Word of God to be the illumination of Spirit in the world, through all things, heard and seen by those with ears to hear and eyes to see. You do not however. There is no Word of God to you that guides you outside of your worship of your Bible. All I can say is step outside and open your eyes and see what you can see, or at least see what you cannot see and acknowledge that to yourself.

It seems you juggled the word of God (Scriptures), the Word (Jesus) to the Holy Spirit (spirit of God).This is already inconsistent with the true context and a lost of understanding what is the function of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit guide us in all truth that is coming from God, he is our Counselor or Helper to lead you to the right path of righteousness through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour. The Scripture is the guide and a light to our path; meditating with the Scripture increase one’s faith, and directed you to the truth. We don’t worship the Scripture, we worship God who is spirit. Why we should attempt to go outside if we already know what is outside?

No, no, no. It's not false teachers you fear, but your own psyche, the little you hiding in fear deep in the recesses of your subconscious mind which you see as the devil. You fear your own darkness, not others who preach whatever. If you want to be vigilant, then you need to get rid of that which blinds you to others first, that which blinds you to yourself, and that means you have to clean the floors of your own house through the Light of Spirit shining into the dark places of your own heart and mind.

Correction please! How could I fear my own psyche if I obey and trust God? The adversary of God is also my adversary.

Prov. 3:5-8
5. Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And do not lean on your own understanding.
6. In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.
7. Do not be wise in your own eyes;
Fear the Lord and turn away from evil.
8. It will be healing to your body,
And refreshment to your bones.

The Scripture says do not be wise in our own eyes and turn away from evil. We don’t have our own darkness; it is already conquered by the cross of Christ.

1 John 4:4-6
4. You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
5. They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.
6. We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

No, faith isn't a fractional proposition (and I think you know that). Truth may be partial. No one has the whole truth. We all have partial truth.

How about the truth of Jesus? Is He also a partial truth when He said He is the truth?

According to what source of reckoning?

The truth that it is winter in your place, is the absolute truth and not partial.

No. God is Truth, Itself -- not "a" truth.

If God is truth, who is the Absolute truth above God?

No I haven't. The text we have is the text we have, and that's all we have to go on, textually, even though that truth isn't absolute or infallible.

Where did you get the text that you are the light and salt as you said this statement, “Yet, Jesus says that we are the light of the world. Jesus says that we are salt.”?

No, I said that no texts are original. The texts, as we have them, are as authentic as we've got.

What do you mean? The narratives in the OT/NT, the words of Jesus Christ, the prophecy, and the revelation are not original? So Jesus teachings’ written in the Bible are not His words?

Because there are people who don't love, is the reason Jesus teaches this. What planet are you on??

This is what I’m pointing out, you have a different answer before.

Satan isn't part of the human family. Satan isn't a real, physical being of any sort.

So there is no evil one; No good and evil in this world?

Yes, according to their perspective of truth.

Then, if that is your conclusion, that would mean there is an absolute facts/truth. There is truth in here inspite of--it is according to their perspective.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

J. Philip Newell, Thomas Merton, Henri Nouwen, Kenneth Leech, Anthony the Great, Francis of Assisi, Julian of Norwich, etc.

Sojourner,

Do you adhere and embraced Buddhism, Sufism, Taoism, Hiduism and New Age? Do you see any contradiction with Buddhism and Christianity?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Well... that's what the MacArthur is doing, so the bible says we shouldn't listen to him.

I don’t think so. John Mcarthur does not promote tradition of men and philosophy ideas that some doing it as mysticism. That is the truth.

"Better" than who? Me? I've had the same biblical training he's had. And I've obviously also had way more experience with spiritual formation than he's had, given that he doesn't even seem to know what spiritual formation is.

It does not need to be one (as mystics) to know what is spiritual formation. You don’t need to be a doctor to treat your sickness, but seek a doctor.

Thanks

 

[Windwalker]

Please don’t eat your word. You are asking a name, then I give you a name. I don’t expect that you will believe on what he will say. I just gave what you are requesting and you challenge me to do it.

Actually, the other link you gave me as I read it were the exact wording of arguments I heard you parrotting. That was in fact your source material, not just some random stuff you found that you had independently come up with on your own "study" of the Bible. Not only were they the exact same arguments and wordings, none of them were from the Bible, which you say you got them from!

Sorry, no, you just read what others say that tickle your ears and then parrot them as authorities, without fact-checking any of them. When you talked with us bringing these objections, those who actually practice what you criticize, as we reply with the facts, you ignore us and keep right on parrotting your beliefs that you copied from them. You are not interested in discovering the truth of the matter. You are interested in your beliefs being right, and using the Bible in ways that allow you to hide your fears and biases against others behind.

You have no valid source of authority. The Bible says nothing about it, according to you, so it is not your source of authority. The apologists sites you quoted not only did no research, you just denied you have been getting your information from them. So they are not an authoritative source for you either. So, bottom line, you have no basis whatsoever for the sorts of unfounded, inaccurate, speculative nonsense you say about those who practice meditation. You should just give up this charade.

If I give a hundred or thousand names to you, it does not matter with you since you based your beliefs by experience instead of the word of God.

All I need is one name that is authoritative. I will definitely consider one credible person's name. Do you have one?

You may have the freedom to research by yourself and nobody is hindering you to do that.

I have researched this far, far, more than you. I not only read credible authorities on the subject of meditation, I actually practice it myself! I am far more an authority on it than you are. I am better informed. I have searched myself for those who criticize it, and all I find are the garbage sites that have no valid basis for what they say, no actual data, no actual study of it, no experience with it, and so forth.

If you want actual modern researchers using scientific methods, I'd start with those like Charles Tart and Abraham Maslow, and we can take it from there. But be prepared, it's actually valid research and findings you will find. I have a ton of sources I can offer you, if you have any actual interest in knowing facts.

I just started it to inform, and not by personal intentions.

No, you started it to spread misinformation without fact-checking any of it. You want to dissuade other Christians from practices that enhance their relationship with God and instead believe like you do. Talk about demonic....

 

[Brickjectivity]

If you are saying that the Bible is not the Word of God, why you quoted the book of Hebrew verse?
I don’t get what you want to imply here? Can you please expound your idea?

Hebrews says the Word is living. Hebrews says the Son is the Word. James says God gives wisdom to anyone regardless of their faults. You disagreed with both of them, therefore you have shown that you also do not believe the Bible is the Word.

 

[Windwalker]

I will make it clear with you. Your perspective toward the Scriptures and worldview is different from me. The particular practice that I’m pointing at is the Centering and Breathe prayer plus some other contemplative ways of meditating. Why we said that those practices are not in accordance with the Scripture? This is because apart from the word of God, there is no such practices that Jesus, or God is telling us to do that kind of practices.

Yes, and that's a terrible rationale for saying it opens us up to Satan! Ludicrous. The whole statement here is meaningless. So what if it doesn't give actually procedural steps on how to pray, such as kneeling on the ground, folding your hands, bowing your head, etc. It doesn't have to! There are many, many practices you do today that are not spelled out in their forms in scripture, but you don't bat an eye at that fact. No, you instead selectively pull out this, last-ditch justification to say you think others shouldn't practice something that you are uncomfortable with yourself, while you do not apply it to yourself! There is a word for this: hypocrisy.

The Bible doesn't teach rituals and forms in the NT. It doesn't prescribe how you should do these things. Instead it speaks in high-level, or underlying principles of what you should be doing, such as "Draw nigh to God". It doesn't ever then specify, but sitting on a stool, folding your hands over your heart or in front of your forehead, and asking God in vocalized words, or silent words if it is after 10 PM at night, and such. "Draw nigh to God" is the injunction, HOW you do that, is a matter of your own discovery. And how can anything that accomplishes that be considered evil, except by religious hypocrites more interested in their beliefs being "according to scripture", than actual results in others? If it works, it's scriptural. If it brings you close to God, it's scriptural. What is scriptural is drawing nigh unto God, not this BS you peddle.

I already posted the article about the danger of those practices.

Yes, and considering it's only validity is what I went into detail about, how less that 1% of those who try meditation, especially those with some form of mental illness, may have negative results, and should not practice it. How that in your mind means it is dangerous to the other 99% who in fact have actual positive results, is beyond any reasonable explanation! It's just bias, fear, and prejudice. "Airplanes are dangerous because you hear of crashes and people getting killed!" This is the mentality that does what you are doing. Paranoia.

I believed you are seeking to know what is Centering and Breathe Prayer.

First of all, I know what it is. I practice it.

I don’t know if you already look at it. We avoid this kind of prayer technique because Jesus did not teach us those technique, as simple as that. Jesus told us to follow Step no. 1, then we follow step no. 1. That's it.

Nonsense. You avoid it because you are scared of it. That's fine. You don't have to do it. But don't lie and say it's because Jesus taught you how to pray as you do. The only place Jesus taught how to prayer was when he cited the "Our Father", or he told us not stand on street corners and pray to be heard of others but to pray in secret.

Can you show me where Jesus actually taught specific practices and techniques? I mean, not you finding verses to support what you came to through others, but I mean him teaching it directly? No? Then Centering Prayer is no more or less doing what Jesus told us to do, which is to pray. He never specifies techniques. You are lying to say otherwise.

Windwalker, before we start discussing this thread, I don’t do some debate contest here. It does not matter to me who win or not if that is what you want to do, but not me. I don’t have to accept anything. If the Word of God is my source and my basis, I have no reason to do some debate contest here. It would come out that I just want to fill my flesh by winning an argument.

You certainly show all the earmarks of one who has to be right. You ignore what others say and just repeat the same old mantras that have been dismantled with the fine scalpels of research, education, reason, facts, and experiences, and just come back to your arguments never addressing why our critiques of your claims are in error. You just keep repeating the same things that have been shown to be false. This is not truth seeking. This is about wanting to be right. It's stubbornness.

This is for those who don’t have a basis or standards. I place this thread in the debate section, because I’m looking forward that this will become a hot issue with the practitioners of contemplative teachings.

Thanks

I'm glad you did! It give us an opportunity to bring out in the open this sort of misinformation and show it to be fraudulent. Thank you for the good that is coming to light from us being able to analyze your sources of this.

 

[sojourner]

How about the truth of Jesus? Is He also a partial truth when He said He is the truth?

Not everyone believes that statement in the way you do.

The truth that it is winter in your place, is the absolute truth and not partial.

According to what source of reckoning?

If God is truth, who is the Absolute truth above God?

If God is truth, there can be no "other truth."

Where did you get the text that you are the light and salt as you said this statement, “Yet, Jesus says that we are the light of the world. Jesus says that we are salt.”?

From the gospels. But how is that question cogent to this particular issue?

What do you mean? The narratives in the OT/NT, the words of Jesus Christ, the prophecy, and the revelation are not original? So Jesus teachings’ written in the Bible are not His words?

Correct. They're only a record of what someone said Jesus said. From a time-distance of at least 40 years.

This is what I’m pointing out, you have a different answer before.

No, I didn't. You read it wrong.

So there is no evil one; No good and evil in this world?

There is no "evil one."

Then, if that is your conclusion, that would mean there is an absolute facts/truth. There is truth in here inspite of--it is according to their perspective.

God is absolute truth. But we cannot fully apprehend God from all angles. Therefore, our perspective limits the truth we have, meaning that the truth we have (about God) is not absolute. But our limited perspective can be "right." IOW, we can see that an elephant has a trunk -- but we can only see the trunk. So we say, "An elephant is like a huge snake." That's partially true -- the elephant's trunk is like a big snake. But that's not all an elephant is.

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner,

Do you adhere and embraced Buddhism, Sufism, Taoism, Hiduism and New Age? Do you see any contradiction with Buddhism and Christianity?

Thanks

Nope. I don't because one has to choose the paradigm that works for one. Xy works for me. But I realize that Xy isn't the only valid paradigm.

 

[sojourner]

I don’t think so. John Mcarthur does not promote tradition of men and philosophy ideas that some doing it as mysticism. That is the truth.

He promotes a denial of what he clearly does not understand -- or of what he pretends to misunderstand. Either way, he is promoting something that is his viewpoint -- a philosophy, if you will, of his own making. And reeling people in. The bible speaks against such actions.

It does not need to be one (as mystics) to know what is spiritual formation.

Obviously, one does, as his blatant misrepresentation of spiritual formation here attests.

You don’t need to be a doctor to treat your sickness, but seek a doctor.

He has yet to see a doctor.