What is Contemplative Christianity?

[Yoshua]

Scripture does penetrated my heart and mind. Your interpretations of it doesn't pass the measure of common sense though. Your interpretation is rejected by me, not scripture. Again, where does it say Contemplative practice is dangerous? Chapter and verse. Show any of us the verses that teach meditation practice is dangerous.

You cannot. You have not. And yet you try to say it's my fault I don't heed the warning of scripture, which you do not provide! Show me the verses.

If not, at this point you make me think you may just be trolling us.

Windwalker,

How many times will I reiterate to you that I’m referring to Centering and Breathe Prayer, or you may add the Labyrinth. Let us go straight directly to the point, and not the term “meditation.” Let us search the Scripture for it if they are really applies.

I discredited him because he has no credibility! You think some dude on a street corner holding a sign that says the world is ending tonight has credibility? Of course when you produce the equivalent as your source of authority someone is going to discredit them! They should. You shouldn't listen to and cite hacks as a source who know nothing about the subject they purport to teach authoritatively about.

If you think he has credibility, then lets examine that. But he can't even get the basics right. Anyone who practices meditation can tell instantly the guy is misinformed. As are you.

What are doing right now is trying to shift the focus of the fact you have NOTHING to support you, to try to say it is a matter of my simple "willingness" to listen to you. This is a debate tactic to shift the focus to the person, rather than the facts presented. This too is an indication you have lost all your arguments and are now going after me personally, as if I have some character flaw in order to deflect attention away from the fact you have nothing to support your claims.

Oh. Here we go back again. You ask for the name and articles/documents regarding contemplative teachings, then you accused me of a debate tactic? And I’m diverting the attention and lost in arguments?

I’m just tell you that if you will think that you are the winner, the great one, then let it be. As I said earlier, I don’t come here for a debate contest, It does not matter to me if you will publicly announced to this forum that you’re the winner.

You need to either concede this debate, or do some serious introspection in what you are saying to me here. I give you a guarantee. If you produce solid, credible research, clear and concise teachings from scripture, or any credible source that demonstrates that meditation practice is inherently dangerous for all its practitioners, I will seriously look at it. I already did when you presented your sources, reading carefully everything they said trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. But what they presented simply did not, and could not pass the muster of solid, credible research. I'm sorry, but your sources are garbage. That's all I can say.

Have you been as forthcoming in listening to us who are actual experts in this area? I am your source of authority, and all you do is pull out streetcorner evangelists holding signs that the end is nigh in support of yourself to counter me with.

Windwalker, if you think that you gave your shots and points in defending the Contemplative teachings as having Higher Self , more experience in seeking God, and more spiritual. Then, why bothered and felt insecure? You even ask me to concede, what will I concede for? I started the thread and I’m responsible to answer to those who posted their message, I don’t see any reason to concede. Is this right? I have my basis, the Scripture which everyone in the RF forum may check what I’ve posted. I think we should start to use the Scripture now, and deal with it. You may post your supporting Scripture as for the contemplative practices.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Yoshua, I know other responses to these have been given, and I think there's too many points of disagreement for me to cover all of them at once, but I'd like to offer a few critical comments on several points I think are interesting.

1. "Spiritual Formation" as a movement appears to be a straw-man

All of these articles seem to be concerned with some particular movement called "spiritual formation". I'd never heard this term before, and am unaware of this movement. I think it should be pointed out that making this particular movement stand in for the entire possibility of Christian contemplative practice is a straw-man, in a way that dealing with mainstream Catholic or Orthodox views would not be. Lets say there is in fact some objectionable point of practice in this movement (or any other), even so it would be fallacious to present that as a refutation of Christian contemplation in general. I'll try to make this point more concrete in responding to some of the specific objections raised, but it would be like if I were to suggest the entire body of reformed theology dealing with soteriology was unbiblical and non-Christian based on an objection to the way sanctification is explained in some particular modern western popular work.

In a similar way, the Christian Research Network definition of "contemplative prayer" is certainly biased. It picks sources to criticize but those sources are not really representative.To pick one example, it presents "repetition of a mantra" as a core practice of Christian contemplation. The use of the word "mantra" is certainly intended to pejorative, an implication of suspicious eastern roots in the mind of the reader. Personally, I do not think it untoward for modern Christians to borrow terms like mantra if they find them meaningful, and the relation between Christianity and other religions is a more complicated topic. But, if the argument is about contemplative prayer in Christianity, the problem is that no traditional Christian descriptions of contemplation use the word mantra. Even where there are at some surface-level similarities between (say) the Jesus Prayer of hesychasm and japa in Hinduism, they are certainly not equivalent. It's therefore disingenuous to refer to "repetition of a mantra" as a central practice of Christian contemplation. Most of the other objections are similar. For example, no eastern orthodox practitioner of contemplative prayer would disagree that "prayer is ultimately a form of worship. It should glorify God alone."

Hi wellnamed,

We filtered the meditation down to the Centering and Breathe Prayer, if I may add the Labyrinth. Did Ignatius, or the early church Fathers, do this kind of prayers? How does this kind of prayer reconcile with the Scripture/Jesus teachings about prayer?

Thanks

 

[Windwalker]

Why don’t you try to post the steps on how to do the Centering and Breathe Prayer so we can see how it is done?

Is this thread becoming about how to engage in the various practices of meditation, instruction guides? Firstly, I'm not familiar with this "Breathe Prayer" you keep speaking of. What's its history? Whose method is it? I can't really offer instructions in it as I'm not familiar with it.

There are actually three basic types of meditation within Christianity. The first is that which Vouthon spoke of on the first page, what is traditionally referred to as Contemplative practice. You can go back and look at that yourself. The second is Christian Meditation, which started under Fr. John Main. It follows more traditional Eastern-style mantra chanting, where he would chant Maranatha for an extended period of time. The third is Centering Prayer, which was developed under the Abbotship of Fr. Thomas Keating in a Trappist monastery. It is a bit of a horse of a different color than other forms of meditation, both East and West.

The basic practice of Centering Prayer is to try to still the busy chattering mind, and when it begins to wander you return to your sacred word, which is specifically meant to be short in order to bring you back from the distracted mind. The work can be anything, such as "Lord Jesus", or "Truth", or what I like, "Peace". To simply say the word, bring you back to your intention, relaxes you, etc. Of course there is more detail to it than this, but there is a lot of material out there you can research on your own from those who are authorities on the subject, those who practice it. Historically critics of it from the traditional lines of meditation viewed is a form of a "failed awareness meditation", as they called it. But it actually is a different form of practice that in effect teaches you the very Biblical teaching of "releasing", which is central to Jesus' teachings. It teaches you to "letting go", or what I call "allowing". You "let" the Holy Spirit move in you through learning to let go of trying to control everything yourself through your egoic clinging and grasping.

So as I've said to you multiple times, when you say this is our ego seeking or that this is through our efforts, it is exactly 100% the opposite of that. Why you won't accept my words on this, is well, telling about you.

I don’t believe that anything that works spiritually, it is scriptural.

Can you show me where that is a scriptural teaching?

I believe you are dead wrong on this. If it brings you to God, then why would God deny it??? "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." If someone is seeking God and finding God, why should you stand in their way preventing them on a path that is working for them? Who is that about? "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea".

Be careful about who you are serving in your religious zeal to teach other how to follow God. You could be knocking them off the path God has chosen for them. You are not a teacher of others. This is quite clear to me. You should let God teach. You should instead be seeking Wisdom.

This is the same on how you feel, when you feel good, do it!

So, you're saying experiencing the Peace of Christ which surpasses all understanding is self-seeking, feel good narcissism? What is wrong with you?

Spiritual intimacy with God is not by feeling nor by working good.

What does spiritual intimacy with God feel like to you? Describe it in your own words. I'm very curious to hear you speak of your experience of God, if any.

In the first place, how can you know that it is scriptural if you are against the Scripture as you reference?

And back we are again. If it works spiritually, if it draws you to God, it's scriptural. I'm not the judge of another man's servant. Are you? Now, that's what's anti-scriptural. That's what's anti-Jesus. Everything you are doing here discounting our own testimony of the fruits of this practice for ourselves. Do you ever stop to question yourself? Who are you serving?

If you are asking what is scriptural in drawing near to God, it is still the Scripture who will tell you on how to draw near to Him.

What is your problem? Where does God tell you any practices and techniques in the NT on any religious practice you are currently engaging in yourself? The only detailed instructions are in the book of Leviticus. Are you following those? This argument is bogus.

But in reality God is telling me how as I listen to him. He guides all who seek, through the Living Spirit, that Scripture which is being written on the tablets of the heart. There, end of story.

Submission to His will in accordance to the Scripture.

You darn right it is! Scripture is written on the tablets of the heart, and it says "Not my will but thine be done". I seek to listen to and follow the Living Spirit. Why do you seek to stop this?

Contemplative prayer used vain repetitions of words known as mantra, you may correct me if I’m wrong.

Wrong. Contemplative Prayer is not a mantra practice. But even before that, "vain repetitions" is not "known as mantra". You are interpreting it that way. No mantra practice is actually "vein", not practiced because they think they will be heard for their "much speaking". That is not what the mantra is used for. Jesus was not speaking of Eastern meditation techniques. I for one do not believe he travelled to India when he was 8 years old, but if he had it might be one explanation of why Christianity parallels Vedanta in very many key ways.

I believed that your perspective based on every belief has its own God.

I believe it is the same God understood in different ways. I believe it is an error to define God in any one way as the Truth of God. That reduces God to our own ideas, Christian ideas or otherwise. Christianity does not own God. God is bigger than any religion, including Christianity. But that's not how you act about it. You think you've got God figured out pretty well, don't you?

My gauge on detection is by thoroughly checking if Jesus taught us to do the vain repetition or that kind of prayers.

Give it a rest already. You don't listen to others. You just want your ideas to be right and when corrected, you ignore others. This is not a heart that seeks Truth.

 

[Windwalker]

How many times will I reiterate to you that I’m referring to Centering and Breathe Prayer, or you may add the Labyrinth. Let us go straight directly to the point, and not the term “meditation.” Let us search the Scripture for it if they are really applies.

Yes, it applies, Everyone has already detailed that for you in clear and articulate ways, yet you refuse to acknowledge any of it. I use the umbrella term "meditation" to describe all the various practices like this, so it's simply my catch-all. Unless I am speaking of specific practice techniques, then I'll cite the school of practice by name.

And will you please stop with this "Centering and Breathe Prayer". That doesn't exist as a known identity as a type of meditation.

Oh. Here we go back again. You ask for the name and articles/documents regarding contemplative teachings, then you accused me of a debate tactic? And I’m diverting the attention and lost in arguments?

The issue was you are making it about me personally. Like I said to the other fundamentalist who left this thread, take ownership of your own actions.

I’m just tell you that if you will think that you are the winner, the great one, then let it be. As I said earlier, I don’t come here for a debate contest, It does not matter to me if you will publicly announced to this forum that you’re the winner.

All I am doing is correcting your misinformation and holding you accountable for spreading lies when you continue to ignore those who are in fact the experts in this area. I'm not trying to convince you should practice meditation, or that you are wrong for not doing it. This is not what you are doing however. You are telling us we are wrong in what we are doing which is helping us spiritually. You are trying to be right, no matter the cost of integrity. I could care less if you take up meditation. All I care about is to correct your misinformation you keep parrotting from others as though it were truth. What you say is baseless, and false. I don't call defending against that me "trying to win".

Windwalker, if you think that you gave your shots and points in defending the Contemplative teachings as having Higher Self , more experience in seeking God, and more spiritual. Then, why bothered and felt insecure?

I don't feel insecure in the least. But every time you spout another willful falsehood, there is no requirement others should just let the foolish parade on unchallenged. I'm not trying to win, but I am trying to expose you for what you are doing. You are illegitimate as a voice on this topic. You spread false propaganda, and ignore experts, telling us we are doing something against God. I've been extraordinarily kind to you so far.

You even ask me to concede, what will I concede for?

Because every point of objection you have raised has been intelligently, clearly, shown to be bad information and based on bad reasoning, false, lies, misinformation, fearmongering, etc, etc, etc. You've been defeated in your assault upon Christian meditators, but you refuse to lay down and be humble enough, honest enough to accept you were wrong. You remind me of the Black Knight in the Holy Grail:

 

[sojourner]

There is no Centering and Breathe Prayer technique that Jesus taught us. That is why I don’t apply it to my prayer. If Jesus never specify a technique, then why add a technique? Who make them to add this technique? Is Jesus teaching on prayer was insufficient or wrong?

So, you're telling me that the only way you pray is to go sit in your closet and pray the Lord's prayer? Because that's what Jesus specifically taught.

 

[sojourner]

But you believe Jesus is the truth, not partial truth?

Jesus' truth is the truth of love.

The reality and truth that it is winter in your place, just telling you that there is truth.

According to what source of reckoning? "Just because you think it's Winter?" Or is there some other source that's more objective?

Where did you get the text that you are the light and salt as you said this statement, “Yet, Jesus says that we are the light of the world. Jesus says that we are salt.”?By Yoshua
That you believe and trusted the Scripture, that is what I want to clear up with you. But I don’t know why you insist to reject the Scripture, its translation, original text, Paul’s text etc..?

It's Matthew chapter 5. But I don't understand why you seem to think that I "reject" the scripture? I'm careful with it -- to see it for what it is; I'm careful with translations and interpretations. But I don't reject it.

Then, why quote and believe the gospels?

Because they're part of the church's Holy Tradition. I believe that Tradition has a truth that's important, but I don't read them literalistically, or in a shallow manner. And I take the message under scrutiny exegetically.

Oh I see. If you don’t believe there is evil in this world, you cannot and will not know what is evil or not, unless you believed in the Scripture that evil exists.

I didn't say I didn't believe there was evil. I said I didn't believe in the actual, physical existence of the avatar that represents evil. I know evil, trust me.

How can there is God/good and no evil/bad? Logically, if there is God, there is moral and immoral.

God is all.

The Nazis who killed 3,000 Jews, an act of evil or not?

Evil, of course. What about fundie wackos who misrepresent important and accepted prayer practices? Evil or not?

I don’t think we have the truth, we (human) are corrupted, and there is no truth in us spiritually.

You're wrong. God is within us, and God is truth.

The only truth that we have is, if we already become a follower of Christ, because of the Spirit of truth that guide us to righteousness.

That truth is the truth of love.

Yes, the partial truth of those blind men are still in the process of knowing what is the absolute truth. They have the partial truth, that is there should be an absolute truth—the complete and whole truth. I believed that is God, that example of the elephant is God.

Problem is, many people have a partial truth, but believe they have the whole truth; they believe their partial truth is "absolute" in some way.

 

[sojourner]

Hi Sojourner,

Therefore, you may say that you can take some practices from those faiths/beliefs (Buddhism, Sufism, Taoism, Hiduism and New Age)?

Thanks

I can participate in many different practices without compromising either my principles, or disrespecting those of others, because, in reality, each expression is a reflection of a larger God.

 

[sojourner]

And will you please stop with this "Centering and Breathe Prayer". That doesn't exist as a known identity as a type of meditation.

Actually, it does.

 

[sojourner]

Yes I know. I committed and submitted myself to God.

IOW, you're in denial.

 

[Windwalker]

Actually, it does.

OK, I stand corrected. No, wait. I'll just ignore what you said and keep saying what I misunderstood as the truth. BTW, can you backup what you claim with scripture?

 

[sojourner]

OK, I stand corrected. No, wait. I'll just ignore what you said and keep saying what I misunderstood as the truth. BTW, can you backup what you claim with scripture?

"Every breath you take
Every move you make
Every bond you break
Every step you take
I'll be watching you."

St. Sting, as quoted in First Assumptions, in the Newest Testament

Breathing prayer: Psalm 150:6
Centering prayer: Psalm 46:10 (although fundies will completely dismiss this, as in the past)
Psalm 18:2
Matt 7:24

 

[Windwalker]

I posted this emoticon as saying I agree with what you are saying. I think you need to control yourself and pray first before you post your message. I don’t see that you know how to appreciate things that agrees with your message like Sojourner.

I apologize then. But for your information, whenever you used the "facepalm" emoticon, what it generally means is "you idiot". The emoticon is generally an insult or an expression of shock or disappointment in another, not a "Hey, I like that", meaning. No need to pray about it to understand its common meanings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facepalm

It's like if someone gives you the middle finger. We pretty much understand what the person means. I'd suggest you rather research out the meaning of these things before you use them in the future. Just stick with smiley faces or winking. It's safer for you, I think.

Our “don’ts” of Scripture is a warning, a call or a reminder to watch out for those things that may lead you to a doctrinal teachings not in line with the Scripture. Therefore, with this, we may be able to concentrate and focus to a right direction in worshiping Him. Why? did God did not warn you anything to be aware with those?

Sure, I'm aware of don'ts, and I am made aware of don'ts all the time. As long as one's focus and intention is to 'draw nigh unto God', and you are actually doing that, God makes you aware of what to avoid or get rid of. It's what happens when you get rid of trying to figure out what God wants using your reasoning mind to try to penetrate an understanding of the divine, and simply listen with an open heart. Of course there are don'ts. I see a long list of don'ts you are doing, but it's not my role in your life to try to correct you as your pastor.

Oh. Everyone who has their faith whether he is a Buddhist, Muslims, Hindus etc.. can claim they have their spiritual enlightenment, higher self, more spiritual etc...The question here are: what is their basis of spiritual enlightenment, more spiritual etc..? Are their basis of true enlightenment/more spiritual is the truth of God?

Claiming enlightenment and being enlightened are two entirely different matters. If someone is enlightened, it will show. Is the basis for an enlightened soul God? Absolutely. There is only One God. If they touch the Face of the Eternal, it's the same Face for everyone, even though each may speak of it in different terms due to the differences between us in culture and language. I know this is hard for you to accept.

By the way, if I may ask, why less focused on do’s and don’ts in Scripture if you seek God in more spiritual and higher self?

Well, actually, it's what Jesus and the entire NT is about. I know this is something hard for you to grasp as well. You approach the NT rather like the OT. Jesus' message was to shift the focus away from an emphasis on following all the rules and codes of conduct that the priest felt was import to follow in "obeying God", while in reality they were missing the entire point of what it means to live for God, which was Love. He was focused on the inside, the inner spiritual life as foremost and primary, and all the rest, the external stuff would flow out from there. I can provide long lists of scriptures that support this, but again it's hard to since it's really the entire NT itself that says this.

If one reads the Bible and does not have that inner spiritual voice guiding them, they end up making the NT another sort of OT. They are essentially doing everything that Jesus said not to do. As I said above, your focus on lists of do's and don'ts miss the entire point of Jesus' message.

When I say if what you are doing brings you closer to God, and it is known by the fruit you bear, where you actually fulfill the law from the heart without getting hung up on crap like picking up sticks on the Sabbath, or praying only exactly as you believe is dictated by God in the Bible, then you are actually obeying Jesus' commandments to his followers. You are then actually following what Jesus taught. The law is fulfilled by working on the inside first, not by whitewashing the outside, and then from that, from the inside all else flows outward. That is Jesus' entire message in a nutshell. And the practice of meditation is, how shall we say, a deep cleaning of the inside of the cup first.

It has clear scriptural support because it is obeying Jesus' command to make clean the inside of the cup first. It is fulfilling Jesus' injunction to seek God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. That's what meditation practice is in fact doing. Seeking God. Then the outside just follows from there without effort, without obsessing about the things you obsess about.

I’m looking forward to the tons of Scriptures rather than exchanging of our views and comments without the Scriptures as basis. This is a better idea.

No it's not. I offer you the entire NT, but when you read it as a fundamentalist you will not hear or see what I hear or see. You need to focus on the inside of the cup. I'm looking forward to hearing the focus in you shift to where Jesus said to look first. "Seek first the kingdom of God, and all the rest will be added unto you". "The kingdom of God is inside you".

Yes I know. I committed and submitted myself to God. Submission and obedience to His will through His words.

You're submitting yourself to your ideas about God, which looks like legalism. The Pharisees Jesus rebuked believed they were doing the same you are claiming to do. You strain at gnats while you swallow a camel whole. Seek first instead the kingdom of God which is within you. Reading about God, is not hearing God.

Thanks

You're welcome.

 

[Windwalker]

Does seeking God with all your heart, mind, and soul in meditation open you to being possessed of devils? Let's ask Jesus that question.

“So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”​

According to some, to seek God in meditation, to empty yourself of your own self-seeking desires and to seek God in silence to know his mind, will, and Heart, getting out of the way in order to receive it, this opens you to spiritual deception. You in effect ask for an egg, and you get a scorpion instead. Should you trust these folks who speak as such, or the promises of scripture? If you say you should trust scripture and make that your rock as you preach, then why do you distrust God?

Just a thought that came to me in meditation this morning. Imagine that, a Bible passage!

 

[Yoshua]

Good luck with that. But here, I'll help you. Start with this presentation Dr. Tart made to his colleagues where he speaks of actual case studies and comparisons of results between the differences of Hypnosis vs Meditation https://s3.amazonaws.com/cttart/art...me+kind+of+(self)hypnosis+-+a+deeper+look.pdf

In the above study, I think it is of particular note that in the cases of these evangelical hacks who say meditation leaves you open to suggestibility, that the devil can influence you (which is where all this purely speculative garbage from the comes from), that meditation in fact is not the same as hypnosis! That's what his studies he goes into here shows. (see charts on pages 17 and 21)

You are in fact not "nobody home" at all, but more present, more aware that even in normal waking states. You are NOT open to suggestibility as in hypnosis. Period. (see results in charts listed in pages cited above) So this whole BS made up by uneducated evangelical ministers fearful of what they don't know anything about suggest. Meditation does not leave open to suggestibility. End of story. Read the research. Actual, research.

Hi Windwalker,

This is based on the psychologist perspective. It is no concern with me if he believe that hypnosis is not the same as meditation. As I said, meditation is a general term. If I say that meditation is hypnosis, then everybody including me is hypnotized.

Any teachings or practices that is not in line with the truth of Scriptures is prone to deception not particularly demon-possession. There are various ways of deception: deception by false teachings & practices, occultism, New Age, cult teachings and others. This is the basis.

Basis can be done thru Scripture checking.

Heb. 13:9
9. Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Is this thread becoming about how to engage in the various practices of meditation, instruction guides? Firstly, I'm not familiar with this "Breathe Prayer" you keep speaking of. What's its history? Whose method is it? I can't really offer instructions in it as I'm not familiar with it.

Hi Windwalker,

From post no. 717
I believed you are seeking to know what isCentering and Breathe Prayer.By Yoshua

First of all, I know what it is. I practice it.By Windwalker

It is because you answered me that you practice it. So, it is clear to me that Sojourner is practicing Centering and Breathe Prayer while for you is the Integral and meditation of Higher Self.

There are actually three basic types of meditation within Christianity. The first is that which Vouthon spoke of on the first page, what is traditionally referred to as Contemplative practice. You can go back and look at that yourself. The second is Christian Meditation, which started under Fr. John Main. It follows more traditional Eastern-style mantra chanting, where he would chant Maranatha for an extended period of time. The third is Centering Prayer, which was developed under the Abbotship of Fr. Thomas Keating in a Trappist monastery. It is a bit of a horse of a different color than other forms of meditation, both East and West.

Actually, those are the things that I’ve mentioning here before. The mantra chanting adapted from Eastern style. That proves that I’m not mistaken from mentioning these things in this forum.
As for Centering Prayer, you choose the sacred word and follow the procedures with some recitations.

The basic practice of Centering Prayer is to try to still the busy chattering mind, and when it begins to wander you return to your sacred word, which is specifically meant to be short in order to bring you back from the distracted mind. The work can be anything, such as "Lord Jesus", or "Truth", or what I like, "Peace". To simply say the word, bring you back to your intention, relaxes you, etc. Of course there is more detail to it than this, but there is a lot of material out there you can research on your own from those who are authorities on the subject, those who practice it. Historically critics of it from the traditional lines of meditation viewed is a form of a "failed awareness meditation", as they called it. But it actually is a different form of practice that in effect teaches you the very Biblical teaching of "releasing", which is central to Jesus' teachings. It teaches you to "letting go", or what I call "allowing". You "let" the Holy Spirit move in you through learning to let go of trying to control everything yourself through your egoic clinging and grasping.

It is central of Jesus teachings? It is not. This is where we should now produce the words of Jesus teachings proving that He actually taught us about it.
They would take the word “Truth,” “Peace,” and “Jesus” and link it with their own system of prayer technique.

Nowhere did Jesus teach us the centering prayer technique. We may better review the Lord’s Prayer and how He prays to the Father. The Lord’s Prayer is simple, the steps and pattern is a very basic.

Matt. 6:8
8. "Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

Why complicate the prayer if the Father knows the things you need before you ask Him?

John 17
1. Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2. "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3. "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4. "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
5. "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6. "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7. "Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.
8. "For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9. "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
10. "And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.
11. "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
12. "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13. "But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves.
14. "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
15. "I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
16. "They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
17. "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
18. "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19. "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
20. "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21. "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22. "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23. "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24. "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25. "O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.
26. "And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.''

Can you show me where that is a scriptural teaching?

I believe you are dead wrong on this. If it brings you to God, then why would God deny it??? "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." If someone is seeking God and finding God, why should you stand in their way preventing them on a path that is working for them? Who is that about? "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea".

Be careful about who you are serving in your religious zeal to teach other how to follow God. You could be knocking them off the path God has chosen for them. You are not a teacher of others. This is quite clear to me. You should let God teach. You should instead be seeking Wisdom.

Yes, it may seem that I’m wrong but in reality there is a truth in it which you did not see. Let me give some analogy here:
A belief system (Belief-1) take a practices, teachings, or use a term in their faith from Religion A, C, E, F & H. Those practitioners claim that they are drawing near to a God which bring them to a Higher Self, enlightenment and intimacy with a God. Can we say that the “Belief-1” is scriptural and a true path to God?

Question:
Where and what is the proof or evidence that Belief-1 truly followed the teachings of Jesus? How?

What does spiritual intimacy with God feel like to you? Describe it in your own words. I'm very curious to hear you speak of your experience of God, if any.

Spiritual intimacy with God (from my experience) is allowing myself to be controlled by God as He is the center of my life. My submission, commitment and trust with Him would mean total dependency on Him. The dependency means without Him, my life is totally in trouble and not secured. This is tested when I used to deliver my brothers from the bondage of evil. There is power in the name in Jesus.

The Scripture come inside the picture as my guide, knowing God and Jesus teachings. Prayer, worshiping, adoring, praising, meditating His words (by giving a time with God), and studying His words as my sword and protection. This is where my faith developed. Now, about the feeling, I felt peace, joy, love and security (as well the fruit of the Spirit). The Holy Spirit guidance as the Spirit of Truth convicts me when I’m sinned. He speaks and helped me from understanding the truth of His Words. The physical effort that I did is not by my own working but by the working of the Spirit.

What is your problem? Where does God tell you any practices and techniques in the NT on any religious practice you are currently engaging in yourself? The only detailed instructions are in the book of Leviticus. Are you following those? This argument is bogus.

But in reality God is telling me how as I listen to him. He guides all who seek, through the Living Spirit, that Scripture which is being written on the tablets of the heart. There, end of story.

Ps. 145:18
18. The Lord is near to all who call upon Him, To all who call upon Him in truth.

Col. 3:16-17
16. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

I believe it is the same God understood in different ways. I believe it is an error to define God in any one way as the Truth of God. That reduces God to our own ideas, Christian ideas or otherwise. Christianity does not own God. God is bigger than any religion, including Christianity. But that's not how you act about it. You think you've got God figured out pretty well, don't you?

If Christianity does not own God, who do you think the God will own? What belief do you think He will tell to the people about what is the truth?

The issue was you are making it about me personally. Like I said to the other fundamentalist who left this thread, take ownership of your own actions.

Windwalker, the issue is not for you, but the practices that is not in line with the Scriptures. It is not personal, but scriptural.

Because every point of objection you have raised has been intelligently, clearly, shown to be bad information and based on bad reasoning, false, lies, misinformation, fearmongering, etc, etc, etc. You've been defeated in your assault upon Christian meditators, but you refuse to lay down and be humble enough, honest enough to accept you were wrong. You remind me of the Black Knight in the Holy Grail:

How can I be wrong if my basis is the Scripture unless the one that I’m talking to does not believe in the Scripture. Do you think that before I dwell into discussion about contemplative, I did not aware of what I’m doing? Let us continue to seek what is in the Scripture and what is in contemplative.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

So, you're telling me that the only way you pray is to go sit in your closet and pray the Lord's prayer? Because that's what Jesus specifically taught.

Hi Sojourner,

Hence, we apply the pattern on how to pray through the Lord’s Prayer. You may also check John 17:1-26 as I posted above on how Jesus prayed. Prayer is simple as Jesus did, it should not be complicated. Addition of such prayer is against the warning that the Scripture stated:

1 Tim. 6:3
3. If anyone advocates a different doctrine, and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,

Gal 1:8
8. But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

According to what source of reckoning? "Just because you think it's Winter?" Or is there some other source that's more objective?

What is more objective than the truth that it is winter in your place that you standing? Do you want to come to a point that you need to change the truth? the reality that it is really winter.

It's Matthew chapter 5. But I don't understand why you seem to think that I "reject" the scripture? I'm careful with it -- to see it for what it is; I'm careful with translations and interpretations. But I don't reject it.

Ok. That is clear with me.

I didn't say I didn't believe there was evil. I said I didn't believe in the actual, physical existence of the avatar that represents evil. I know evil, trust me.

Hmm. You believe there is evil, but the actual and physical existence? Evil can take its many forms, but originally still an evil spirit. Can you expound more on your position about the evil spirit and the avatar you mentioned?

God is all.

Are you a Pantheist? Omnist? Almost same in belief that God is all.

Evil, of course. What about fundie wackos who misrepresent important and accepted prayer practices? Evil or not?

Naturally, you may question that thing exactly because they claimed that Scripture cannot be added nor reduced. They are not evil, because they have a basis or evidence that Scripture does not allow it. I think this is the time that the Scripture should be laid down to study it exegetically.

You're wrong. God is within us, and God is truth.

Yes, God is truth. We may say that phrase. But how can God is within us if we are a corrupted being?

Rom.3:10-18
10. as it is written,
"There is none righteous, not even one;
11. There is none who understands,
12. All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
13. "Their throat is an open grave,
14. "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness";
15. "Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16. Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17. And the path of peace have they not known."
18. "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Isa. 64:6
6. For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;

That truth is the truth of love.

Yes, the love of God through Christ. Yet love has been the universal term for all mankind, but if people does not draw near to Christ to repent, submit, trust and obey his command. This is absolutely the work of the free-will of men.

Problem is, many people have a partial truth, but believe they have the whole truth; they believe their partial truth is "absolute" in some way.

One cannot have the partial truth if he truly obey and surrender himself to Christ.

Col. 2:9-10
9. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
10. and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

Eph. 3;19
19. to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Eph.4:13
13. till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

There is a fullness in Christ, we are filled and we are complete in Him. What are the reason behind that we cannot have the full truth when Jesus say ‘I am the truth’ plus the promises of these Scriptures? Who will we follow?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

I can participate in many different practices without compromising either my principles, or disrespecting those of others, because, in reality, each expression is a reflection of a larger God.

How can you not compromise the truth in your faith if you adhere and participate different practices? Do Jesus teachings told us to participate with other practices and live with it?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

IOW, you're in denial.

Denial of what? The submission and commitment? how

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Breathing prayer: Psalm 150:6
Centering prayer: Psalm 46:10 (although fundies will completely dismiss this, as in the past)
Psalm 18:2
Matt 7:24

This Scripture encourage us to praise the Lord to those who has breath, not a steps or procedure in how to breathe. Can you expound your interpretation here?

How about Ps. 18:2 and Matt. 7:24 with Centering Prayer? How does it connected with centering?

Thanks