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What is Contemplative Christianity?

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Instead of posting stupid emoticons, how about you try to respond with intelligent points to my intelligent posts? Do you have any intelligent points? I somewhat doubt that as you didn't make any and instead posted this.

There are some people who did not believe in experience, and that is not me. I fully believe what you are experiencing, and I don’t have any doubts that those may build up your faith based on you spiritual paths. But for ours, we solely based in the Scripture, the do’s and don’t of the Scripture.;)
So the "don'ts" of scripture is to not do what works in your spiritual path? That sounds to me like a huge "don't" right there.

Again though, you are only seeing in scripture what your mind allows you to see. You are a fundamentalist. And you only see fundamentalist Jesus in scripture. I do not see Fundi Christ, myself. I see something a bit more open, more spiritual, less focused on "doe's and don'ts", and I can give you tons of scriptures that support that. They are quite clear to me, where you cannot see them even though you are looking right at them.

Experiences are usually taken into unbelief situation due to undocumented evidences or basis.
Which is why your sources are garbage. They are nothing but undocumented evidences, and have no validity.

If somebody shared his/her supernatural experience, some will look at it as they have a psychological problem. But in reality (not all of them), there is truth inside on what he is experiencing.
Not everyone having spiritual experiences are mentally ill. If that's the case, then Jesus should be dismissed by you too.

If someone is demonically possessed, don’t call a fireman or attorney. Call a pastor. If someone who is mentally disturbed, call a psychiatrist.:)
I certainly think someone being viewed a "demon possessed" is demonstrating all the things a mentally disturbed person does. I'd prefer calling a psychiatrist than a witchdoctor. But if you prefer witchdoctors over modern medicine, that's your choice for yourself.

What I mean here is that man’s act to seek supernatural things is the same as the desire of the flesh. Human is flesh.
Oh brother, this has been covered countless times with you. It is not seeking for the ego. But you have your mind set it is, and do not listen to those who tell you the facts because you are unwilling to listen to anything that contradicts your beliefs. You worship your beliefs.

Correction please! How could I fear my own psyche if I obey and trust God?:shrug: The adversary of God is also my adversary.
Because you are not facing yourself. God is there to help face yourself. It's like going to a psychologist and telling them how much you believe in them, but then never let them help you figure out what's wrong with you. "I believe in Jesus, and he makes me whole by just believing! I don't need to look at myself! Jesus fixed me!" Denial. That's what this form of religion is. Escapism. "Im perfectly fine, Dr. Christ covers it all up through my faith in him".
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I wanted to add a thought to this whole thing of going to Dr. Jesus for miracle fixes. I really do think that this is a form of self-avoidance. It's running to a "savior" to make all the bad parts we don't like about ourselves to magically be taken away from us. To simply say, "I trust in Jesus" is not enough. You have to grow, and that takes work on your part. To simply "believe", does not get you around needing to work on yourself, albeit through faith.

What faith does, how it plays a part, is that it allows you to trust in God that you will not fall when you face the darkness. But YOU must face the darkness. Faith sustains through that process, not allows you to bypass it. Furthermore, it also allows you to forgive yourself because you accept through faith God's forgiveness. Someone can tell themselves intellectually they accept that they are saved because the Bible says so, but is that really, truly genuinely accepting that forgiveness for ourselves? If we truly are, then we are forgiving ourselves. And that is the first step, the cornerstone as it were upon which we are able to forgive others and live in Peace with God, ourselves, and the world.

But if the person is hiding from themselves, hiding their dark bits down deep, not wanting to look there because it may "open the door to Satan!", they truly have not accepted that Grace in themselves. The entire edifice of their belief system is in "correctly obeying the word of God," and it does not realize that Freedom that Spirit brings as we become liberated from this deep fear and constant avoidance.

Meditation is God's ancient form of psychotherapy. :) The job of the psychotherapist is to help you feel safe and guide you into deep self-examination whereby you uncover, expose, and come to terms with your repressed and hidden darknesses, which we demonize and put the face of the devil upon because we fear them. Jesus said quite well to the woman who touched the hem of his garment, "Your faith has made you whole". It was her action, propelled by belief that she would be made whole, that allowed to her find that healing in herself. She did the work.

God's Grace is there, it lifts you, it holds your hand, it guides you, it promises you safety, but it doesn't take away those things we fear, hide them from us. Rather it allows us to face these things and remove our fear of them. It takes the devil, and removes its power. We remove that power, through Spirit. But it is only in knowing that in us that we are able to truly heal and become whole. You don't ask Dr. Jesus to take it away. You ask to help you face it and overcome its fear so that you may be made whole.

It is a process. It requires work. It requires discipline. It requires commitment. It requires faith. It requires sacrificing our fears on the altar of faith. None of this magic fixing. A moment of release is great, but that's the beginning of the work. Not a one time thing that somehow magically makes it all good now. That's just continuing the denial, except now doing the running and hiding by mistakenly calling it faith.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I think I've posted this before, but it works well as an illustration here, too. From an old Cheech & Chong sketch: A panhandler is plying his trade on a street corner, when he "accidentally" accosts a street evangelist. The street evangelist says:

"Before, I was all messed up on drugs. But since I've found the Lord, now I'm all messed up on the Lord!"
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Hebrews says the Word is living. Hebrews says the Son is the Word. James says God gives wisdom to anyone regardless of their faults. You disagreed with both of them, therefore you have shown that you also do not believe the Bible is the Word.
Hi Brick,

I think there is a misinterpretation. You may post my message that I disagree that the Word is living and Jesus is the Word so I can explain it better. Can you give me the verse for James so I can review what you are implying?

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Actually, the other link you gave me as I read it were the exact wording of arguments I heard you parrotting. That was in fact your source material, not just some random stuff you found that you had independently come up with on your own "study" of the Bible. Not only were they the exact same arguments and wordings, none of them were from the Bible, which you say you got them from! :)

Sorry, no, you just read what others say that tickle your ears and then parrot them as authorities, without fact-checking any of them. When you talked with us bringing these objections, those who actually practice what you criticize, as we reply with the facts, you ignore us and keep right on parrotting your beliefs that you copied from them. You are not interested in discovering the truth of the matter. You are interested in your beliefs being right, and using the Bible in ways that allow you to hide your fears and biases against others behind.

You have no valid source of authority. The Bible says nothing about it, according to you, so it is not your source of authority. The apologists sites you quoted not only did no research, you just denied you have been getting your information from them. So they are not an authoritative source for you either. So, bottom line, you have no basis whatsoever for the sorts of unfounded, inaccurate, speculative nonsense you say about those who practice meditation. You should just give up this charade.
Hi Windwalker,

If the Scripture itself does not penetrate your heart and mind, and if the Scripture is not sufficient for you to know what is good and not good, what is the use of giving you more information as proving the danger of Contemplative?
As I said, I produce a lot of Scriptures as my support to my message. You may review what we have discussed in the past.;)

All I need is one name that is authoritative. I will definitely consider one credible person's name. Do you have one?
What is the use of giving you a thousand names if the Scripture itself does not qualify as the basis of the contemplative practices? Did you see the picture on how you criticized the name of the person that I gave you. It's no use. My friend. Seek the Scripture on how you will be guarded with the things that is man made philosophy and doctrines.:)

I have researched this far, far, more than you. I not only read credible authorities on the subject of meditation, I actually practice it myself! I am far more an authority on it than you are. I am better informed. I have searched myself for those who criticize it, and all I find are the garbage sites that have no valid basis for what they say, no actual data, no actual study of it, no experience with it, and so forth.

If you want actual modern researchers using scientific methods, I'd start with those like Charles Tart and Abraham Maslow, and we can take it from there. But be prepared, it's actually valid research and findings you will find. I have a ton of sources I can offer you, if you have any actual interest in knowing facts.
If your experience in meditation or mystical practices cannot explain through Scriptures (without point of reference), what is the use of finding a study or authority that you wanted?
I will check with Charles and Abraham first before I comment.;)

No, you started it to spread misinformation without fact-checking any of it. You want to dissuade other Christians from practices that enhance their relationship with God and instead believe like you do. Talk about demonic....
My basis is the word of God, and I believe this is the highest form of authority by giving you the evidence and proof that is from God. I believed you are a proven veteran here in this forum with Sojourner, I'm quite surprise on how you reacted with my information given which I'm not tired to give the supporting verses to those who read my post. In the first place, this forum has a policy in proselytizing, I'm trying to comply with the RF policy. I hope you are the person who will be better to understand with the outcome of discussion.;)

My desire is to share and not forcing you to believe. Seek the word.:)

PS: I will get back tomorrow to reply other posted messages. Just busy right now. Thanks
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Hi Brick,

I think there is a misinterpretation. You may post my message that I disagree that the Word is living and Jesus is the Word so I can explain it better. Can you give me the verse for James so I can review what you are implying?

Thanks
...Paul said there is the Word of God and there is a gospel.

Heb. 4:12
12. For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

If you are saying that the Bible is not the Word of God, why you quoted the book of Hebrew verse?
I don’t get what you want to imply here? Can you please expound your idea?
I cannot expound it to you, but the idea is instead of talking people to death keep doing good work and not give up. The Word can't be contained in a book and won't even hold still for its pursuers. They must keep working and keep doing good. Then the Word is theirs.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If the Scripture itself does not penetrate your heart and mind, and if the Scripture is not sufficient for you to know what is good and not good, what is the use of giving you more information as proving the danger of Contemplative?
Scripture does penetrated my heart and mind. Your interpretations of it doesn't pass the measure of common sense though. Your interpretation is rejected by me, not scripture. Again, where does it say Contemplative practice is dangerous? Chapter and verse. Show any of us the verses that teach meditation practice is dangerous.

You cannot. You have not. And yet you try to say it's my fault I don't heed the warning of scripture, which you do not provide! Show me the verses.

If not, at this point you make me think you may just be trolling us.

As I said, I produce a lot of Scriptures as my support to my message.
You have not. This is a lie. You have said it doesn't speak about Contemplative practice anywhere. This means it also does not say anything negative either! It saying NOTHING AT ALL, according to you. And yet here you are, saying you have scriptures. Which is it? You are lying in either case.

Produce the verses that say explicitly Contemplative practices open you to the devil.

You may review what we have discussed in the past.;)
The only verse you offered was the one in Luke about more devils coming back after having the devils cast out of your house. What does that have to do with meditation? It is not mentioning or alluding to meditation practice in any way shape or form. That's not showing us scriptures that say meditation practice is bad. Let's see these verses!

What is the use of giving you a thousand names if the Scripture itself does not qualify as the basis of the contemplative practices?
I'm only asking for one. One would be useful. Where is it?

Again, I've torn your external evangelist source of authority away, now you are in the corner. One left. Where is the scripture that teaches meditation practices open you to demonic possession? Everyone is waiting to see them.

Once this is gone, you are finished.

Did you see the picture on how you criticized the name of the person that I gave you. It's no use. My friend. Seek the Scripture on how you will be guarded with the things that is man made philosophy and doctrines.:)
I discredited him because he has no credibility! You think some dude on a street corner holding a sign that says the world is ending tonight has credibility? Of course when you produce the equivalent as your source of authority someone is going to discredit them! They should. You shouldn't listen to and cite hacks as a source who know nothing about the subject they purport to teach authoritatively about.

If you think he has credibility, then lets examine that. But he can't even get the basics right. Anyone who practices meditation can tell instantly the guy is misinformed. As are you.

What are doing right now is trying to shift the focus of the fact you have NOTHING to support you, to try to say it is a matter of my simple "willingness" to listen to you. This is a debate tactic to shift the focus to the person, rather than the facts presented. This too is an indication you have lost all your arguments and are now going after me personally, as if I have some character flaw in order to deflect attention away from the fact you have nothing to support your claims.

You need to either concede this debate, or do some serious introspection in what you are saying to me here. I give you a guarantee. If you produce solid, credible research, clear and concise teachings from scripture, or any credible source that demonstrates that meditation practice is inherently dangerous for all its practitioners, I will seriously look at it. I already did when you presented your sources, reading carefully everything they said trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. But what they presented simply did not, and could not pass the muster of solid, credible research. I'm sorry, but your sources are garbage. That's all I can say.

Have you been as forthcoming in listening to us who are actual experts in this area? I am your source of authority, and all you do is pull out streetcorner evangelists holding signs that the end is nigh in support of yourself to counter me with.

If your experience in meditation or mystical practices cannot explain through Scriptures (without point of reference), what is the use of finding a study or authority that you wanted?
It can be and it is explained through countless scriptures, which both Sojourner and myself have shown you. It does not explicitly teach the techniques of the practices, but it does not need to. There is no requirement it has to! If that were the case, everything you do is suspect too! Does it draw us "nigh unto God"? Yes. End of story. It's supported.

I will check with Charles and Abraham first before I comment.;)
Good luck with that. But here, I'll help you. Start with this presentation Dr. Tart made to his colleagues where he speaks of actual case studies and comparisons of results between the differences of Hypnosis vs Meditation https://s3.amazonaws.com/cttart/art...me+kind+of+(self)hypnosis+-+a+deeper+look.pdf

In the above study, I think it is of particular note that in the cases of these evangelical hacks who say meditation leaves you open to suggestibility, that the devil can influence you (which is where all this purely speculative garbage from the comes from), that meditation in fact is not the same as hypnosis! That's what his studies he goes into here shows. (see charts on pages 17 and 21)

You are in fact not "nobody home" at all, but more present, more aware that even in normal waking states. You are NOT open to suggestibility as in hypnosis. Period. (see results in charts listed in pages cited above) So this whole BS made up by uneducated evangelical ministers fearful of what they don't know anything about suggest. Meditation does not leave open to suggestibility. End of story. Read the research. Actual, research.

My basis is the word of God, and I believe this is the highest form of authority by giving you the evidence and proof that is from God.
No, it is not your basis at all! Where does it teach what you are teaching? You keep saying this, but produce nothing when asked. Where are the verses that explicitly teach what you are? Show those, rather than just simply parroting from these ill-informed, unqualified sources you look up online to support what someone else heard who then taught this stuff to you.

I believed you are a proven veteran here in this forum with Sojourner, I'm quite surprise on how you reacted with my information given which I'm not tired to give the supporting verses to those who read my post.
I reacted with integrity. I carefully read and considered what you presented. But both my knowledge, education, experience, and integrity would not allow me to give any serious consideration to what was presented, aside from the one point which I myself cited from him and agreed with, with qualification. I've seen nothing of the kind in return in this exchange.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
This malarkey needs to be called out for what it is. This is the same sort of irrationality that caused the Salem witch trials. You go get 'I'm, Windwalker!
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have examined the criticisms presented, as well as the ones I knew from before which bases this phobia of demonic possession on the notion that meditation leaves you in in a state of suggestibility. I recall hearing that preached in church a couple times years ago. However that is based on ignorance of what meditation practice actually is, comparing it to some form of self-hypnosis.

You know as well as I do, that we do not enter into such "blank" and suggestive states of mind at all. On the contrary, we become far more aware of what is happening then when we are simply in our normal reasoning and rational waking states! If anything, we become more vigilant to what is talking to us! If anything it makes us more aware of the differences between light and dark. Not more vulnerable! It's the exact opposite. And the research I cited shows this to be exactly what you and I both know from our own practices.

The ONLY thing these critiques have to offer is two things to support their basic phobias:

  1. Some people have negative experiences. However, this is a rare percentage and largely due to either some mental stability issue or being ill-prepared for such an encounter within. This does not translate into it's dangerous for everyone, any more than citing accidents in air-travel makes airplane travel unsafe for everyone. That is a phobic response, not a rational one
  2. Those who practice it generally gain insights that makes them see God in a different light than what they understood when merely going off what they thought before from their reading of scripture without such an experience as this. That is viewed as a threat to "The Truth!" by those who have a particular theology they wish to defend.
That's it. That's the only basis for criticism. All the rest are just hollow fabrications to try to justify those two essential fears.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I have examined the criticisms presented, as well as the ones I knew from before which bases this phobia of demonic possession on the notion that meditation leaves you in in a state of suggestibility. I recall hearing that preached in church a couple times years ago. However that is based on ignorance of what meditation practice actually is, comparing it to some form of self-hypnosis.
Meditation isn't some omnidirectional thing, though. It's highly directed. It opens one to precisely what one is pointed toward -- like a parabolic antenna. If one is pointed toward God, and is perceiving light, darkness cannot penetrate. Because darkness is not a thing -- it's an absence of a thing. It's emptiness. If one is being filled with God, through one's intentional prayer, emptiness, by definition, cannot be present.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Meditation isn't some omnidirectional thing, though. It's highly directed. It opens one to precisely what one is pointed toward -- like a parabolic antenna. If one is pointed toward God, and is perceiving light, darkness cannot penetrate. Because darkness is not a thing -- it's an absence of a thing. It's emptiness. If one is being filled with God, through one's intentional prayer, emptiness, by definition, cannot be present.
Sure, I'd agree with this, but I'd be careful about the use of the word "emptiness". I agree in your context with what you mean by it. We are rather quite focused, where all darkness is driven out when we are in that LIght. This is very true. But when the Buddhist, or some Christians describe this Light as "Emptiness" it means something other than a 'blank' or some notion of nihilism. It simply means, in other terms, it lacks the qualifying terms or forms or definitions we supply with every other object in our dualistic awareness.

It is experienced as anything but a blank. It is "nothing" only in the sense of "no-thing", in other words not itself an object. It is Formless "itself", but I would say only in the sense of absolute pure energy, or rather the Source of that. That is anything but blackness! The only way it is known in a dualistic point of view is Absolute Spirit, Light, and Love. To use the Hindu term, Satchitananda; "Being, Awareness, Bliss", the Brahman with qualification side of things, Saguna Brahman. Amazing how John said the same thing. ;)

As far as experiencing fear and darkness within meditation, that is of course, to put this in a metaphorical context, it is that which draws us away from that Light. Our own fear may come up, accusing us, scaring us, a dragon before the door to the temple of God. It draws our focus to itself, and away from God. In the deepest understanding of this, it is our own demon we create in order to avoid releasing ourselves into the Light, where all our illusions of self, all our substitute securities we create and cling to are annihilated in that Light. Those who claim we are seeking for the ego are full of it. What we do instead is face all obstacles, we don't run from the devil, but confront it with Peace, with Light, with Truth and walk straight past that ugly gargoyle which threatens us to go no further. We pass through the door of death itself. The darkness is our self-defenses against God. To run from it, is to run from giving ourselves fully surrendered to God.

Alas, now this conversation will return to whether John MacArthur Jr. is a good source of authority. I'd love to have this discussion kick up a few ticks. :)
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος



Yoshua, I know other responses to these have been given, and I think there's too many points of disagreement for me to cover all of them at once, but I'd like to offer a few critical comments on several points I think are interesting.

1. "Spiritual Formation" as a movement appears to be a straw-man


All of these articles seem to be concerned with some particular movement called "spiritual formation". I'd never heard this term before, and am unaware of this movement. I think it should be pointed out that making this particular movement stand in for the entire possibility of Christian contemplative practice is a straw-man, in a way that dealing with mainstream Catholic or Orthodox views would not be. Lets say there is in fact some objectionable point of practice in this movement (or any other), even so it would be fallacious to present that as a refutation of Christian contemplation in general. I'll try to make this point more concrete in responding to some of the specific objections raised, but it would be like if I were to suggest the entire body of reformed theology dealing with soteriology was unbiblical and non-Christian based on an objection to the way sanctification is explained in some particular modern western popular work.

In a similar way, the Christian Research Network definition of "contemplative prayer" is certainly biased. It picks sources to criticize but those sources are not really representative.To pick one example, it presents "repetition of a mantra" as a core practice of Christian contemplation. The use of the word "mantra" is certainly intended to pejorative, an implication of suspicious eastern roots in the mind of the reader. Personally, I do not think it untoward for modern Christians to borrow terms like mantra if they find them meaningful, and the relation between Christianity and other religions is a more complicated topic. But, if the argument is about contemplative prayer in Christianity, the problem is that no traditional Christian descriptions of contemplation use the word mantra. Even where there are at some surface-level similarities between (say) the Jesus Prayer of hesychasm and japa in Hinduism, they are certainly not equivalent. It's therefore disingenuous to refer to "repetition of a mantra" as a central practice of Christian contemplation. Most of the other objections are similar. For example, no eastern orthodox practitioner of contemplative prayer would disagree that "prayer is ultimately a form of worship. It should glorify God alone."

2. Dealing with the question of a "biblical basis" of practice or of mysticism

Advocates of contemplative prayer believe and teach that it is a necessary practice if one desires to become more like Christ. In claiming this, however, they often appeal to the practices of ancient Roman Catholic mystic monks rather than the Word of God.

-- http://christianresearchnetwork.org/topic/contemplative-prayer/

"There are many paradigms of sanctification, but there is only one true biblical paradigm for sanctification"

-- John MacArthur

As others noted, MacArthur doesn't elaborate on what the true biblical paradigm is, but given his list of terms at the beginning of the video (justification, sanctification, glorification) and his background, it seems reasonable to assume he is referring to a protestant framework of soteriology, and I think there's a point to be made here that doesn't depend on narrowing it down further.

The other quote says that advocates of contemplative prayer appeal to ancient monks (or elsewhere, the Desert Fathers of the 3rd century) rather than the Bible. However, there is a parallel. MacArthur's claim to a "one true biblical paradigm" appeals to 16th century writers, i.e those of the reformation. What I mean is this: As a systematic, conceptual framework, reformed soteriologies which use terms like "sanctification" and "justification" in a technical way, don't exist as such in the Bible. Both the terms and their understandings are derived from an interpretation of biblical texts, but as a coherent whole they certainly say more than the text does directly. There is no conceptually univocal and systematic theology of justification in the new testament. Later Christians, like the reformers, provided the systematization.

In an analogous way, advocates of contemplative prayer in the ancient Christian traditions, for example Evagrius of Ponticus or Gregory Palamas in his defense of hesychasm, were systematizers whose frameworks are based on biblical texts. If you reject contemplation because it is not contained in a systematic way in the Christian scriptures, than you should also reject reformed soteriology for the same reasons. Or, if you allow for reformed soteriology as a 16th century systematic formulation of biblical principles, it is possible in a similar way to allow for contemplative views on Christian practice as 4th (or 7th or 12th or etc) century formulations of biblical principles.

This gets back to the argument about hermeneutics, and so to reiterate: it is logically invalid to claim for reformed soteriology a biblical status if, in order for a view to be "biblical", it must be contained word for word in the biblical texts. Neither sola scriptura, nor the reformed concept of sanctification (with all its deductive corollaries) exist as such in the biblical texts. Nor does hesychia as a practice of Christian contemplation. But both are derived from a meaningful human engagement with those texts.

To present an insufficient introduction to an orthodox Christian systematization, see the first parts of this document, which excerpts from a book on eastern orthodoxy spiritual life called "The Orthodox Way":

http://www.clarion-journal.com/files/orthodox-contemplation-2.pdf

Whether dealing with the Pseudo-Dionysian model of purification, illumination, and union, or Maximos' categories, all of these are formulated in reference to the scriptures explicitly, following similar models of exegesis (roughly) as the reformation, as far as being based on biblical texts. It's also worth noting that every ancient Christian writer on mystical theology and Christian contemplative life puts purification and repentance as a primary stage. One of the criticisms offered about "spiritual formation" in all of these articles is that supposedly these mystical practices dispense with an emphasis on sin, but that's simply not true of any authentic historical Christian contemplative practice. You might see also something like The Ladder of Divine Ascent by John Climacus.

I would like to respond further to a few points but this is long enough for now and I'm out of time.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Yoshua, I know other responses to these have been given, and I think there's too many points of disagreement for me to cover all of them at once, but I'd like to offer a few critical comments on several points I think are interesting.

1. "Spiritual Formation" as a movement appears to be a straw-man


All of these articles seem to be concerned with some particular movement called "spiritual formation". I'd never heard this term before, and am unaware of this movement. I think it should be pointed out that making this particular movement stand in for the entire possibility of Christian contemplative practice is a straw-man, in a way that dealing with mainstream Catholic or Orthodox views would not be. Lets say there is in fact some objectionable point of practice in this movement (or any other), even so it would be fallacious to present that as a refutation of Christian contemplation in general. I'll try to make this point more concrete in responding to some of the specific objections raised, but it would be like if I were to suggest the entire body of reformed theology dealing with soteriology was unbiblical and non-Christian based on an objection to the way sanctification is explained in some particular modern western popular work.

In a similar way, the Christian Research Network definition of "contemplative prayer" is certainly biased. It picks sources to criticize but those sources are not really representative.To pick one example, it presents "repetition of a mantra" as a core practice of Christian contemplation. The use of the word "mantra" is certainly intended to pejorative, an implication of suspicious eastern roots in the mind of the reader. Personally, I do not think it untoward for modern Christians to borrow terms like mantra if they find them meaningful, and the relation between Christianity and other religions is a more complicated topic. But, if the argument is about contemplative prayer in Christianity, the problem is that no traditional Christian descriptions of contemplation use the word mantra. Even where there are at some surface-level similarities between (say) the Jesus Prayer of hesychasm and japa in Hinduism, they are certainly not equivalent. It's therefore disingenuous to refer to "repetition of a mantra" as a central practice of Christian contemplation. Most of the other objections are similar. For example, no eastern orthodox practitioner of contemplative prayer would disagree that "prayer is ultimately a form of worship. It should glorify God alone."

2. Dealing with the question of a "biblical basis" of practice or of mysticism





As others noted, MacArthur doesn't elaborate on what the true biblical paradigm is, but given his list of terms at the beginning of the video (justification, sanctification, glorification) and his background, it seems reasonable to assume he is referring to a protestant framework of soteriology, and I think there's a point to be made here that doesn't depend on narrowing it down further.

The other quote says that advocates of contemplative prayer appeal to ancient monks (or elsewhere, the Desert Fathers of the 3rd century) rather than the Bible. However, there is a parallel. MacArthur's claim to a "one true biblical paradigm" appeals to 16th century writers, i.e those of the reformation. What I mean is this: As a systematic, conceptual framework, reformed soteriologies which use terms like "sanctification" and "justification" in a technical way, don't exist as such in the Bible. Both the terms and their understandings are derived from an interpretation of biblical texts, but as a coherent whole they certainly say more than the text does directly. There is no conceptually univocal and systematic theology of justification in the new testament. Later Christians, like the reformers, provided the systematization.

In an analogous way, advocates of contemplative prayer in the ancient Christian traditions, for example Evagrius of Ponticus or Gregory Palamas in his defense of hesychasm, were systematizers whose frameworks are based on biblical texts. If you reject contemplation because it is not contained in a systematic way in the Christian scriptures, than you should also reject reformed soteriology for the same reasons. Or, if you allow for reformed soteriology as a 16th century systematic formulation of biblical principles, it is possible in a similar way to allow for contemplative views on Christian practice as 4th (or 7th or 12th or etc) century formulations of biblical principles.

This gets back to the argument about hermeneutics, and so to reiterate: it is logically invalid to claim for reformed soteriology a biblical status if, in order for a view to be "biblical", it must be contained word for word in the biblical texts. Neither sola scriptura, nor the reformed concept of sanctification (with all its deductive corollaries) exist as such in the biblical texts. Nor does hesychia as a practice of Christian contemplation. But both are derived from a meaningful human engagement with those texts.

To present an insufficient introduction to an orthodox Christian systematization, see the first parts of this document, which excerpts from a book on eastern orthodoxy spiritual life called "The Orthodox Way":

http://www.clarion-journal.com/files/orthodox-contemplation-2.pdf

Whether dealing with the Pseudo-Dionysian model of purification, illumination, and union, or Maximos' categories, all of these are formulated in reference to the scriptures explicitly, following similar models of exegesis (roughly) as the reformation, as far as being based on biblical texts. It's also worth noting that every ancient Christian writer on mystical theology and Christian contemplative life puts purification and repentance as a primary stage. One of the criticisms offered about "spiritual formation" in all of these articles is that supposedly these mystical practices dispense with an emphasis on sin, but that's simply not true of any authentic historical Christian contemplative practice. You might see also something like The Ladder of Divine Ascent by John Climacus.

I would like to respond further to a few points but this is long enough for now and I'm out of time.
I appreciate your informative posts. I think they're spot on and speak pointedly and succinctly to the argument. They're likely going to be useful for most anyone who cares to learn more about contemplative practices here. But this post is destined, I'm afraid, to go straight in one ear and out the other of one whose mind has already been made up based on (unfortunately) a great amount of misunderstanding and misinformation.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A favorite saying of mine goes like this. "A man convinced against his will, remains of same opinion still". Another way to state that with irony is in this case, "Don't confuse me with the facts".
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Yes, and that's a terrible rationale for saying it opens us up to Satan! :) Ludicrous. The whole statement here is meaningless. So what if it doesn't give actually procedural steps on how to pray, such as kneeling on the ground, folding your hands, bowing your head, etc. It doesn't have to! There are many, many practices you do today that are not spelled out in their forms in scripture, but you don't bat an eye at that fact. No, you instead selectively pull out this, last-ditch justification to say you think others shouldn't practice something that you are uncomfortable with yourself, while you do not apply it to yourself! There is a word for this: hypocrisy.

The Bible doesn't teach rituals and forms in the NT. It doesn't prescribe how you should do these things. Instead it speaks in high-level, or underlying principles of what you should be doing, such as "Draw nigh to God". It doesn't ever then specify, but sitting on a stool, folding your hands over your heart or in front of your forehead, and asking God in vocalized words, or silent words if it is after 10 PM at night, and such. "Draw nigh to God" is the injunction, HOW you do that, is a matter of your own discovery. And how can anything that accomplishes that be considered evil, except by religious hypocrites more interested in their beliefs being "according to scripture", than actual results in others? If it works, it's scriptural. If it brings you close to God, it's scriptural. What is scriptural is drawing nigh unto God, not this BS you peddle.
Hi Windwalker,

Why don’t you try to post the steps on how to do the Centering and Breathe Prayer so we can see how it is done?o_O

I don’t believe that anything that works spiritually, it is scriptural. This is the same on how you feel, when you feel good, do it! Spiritual intimacy with God is not by feeling nor by working good.

In the first place, how can you know that it is scriptural if you are against the Scripture as you reference?

If you are asking what is scriptural in drawing near to God, it is still the Scripture who will tell you on how to draw near to Him. Submission to His will in accordance to the Scripture.
Yes, and considering it's only validity is what I went into detail about, how less that 1% of those who try meditation, especially those with some form of mental illness, may have negative results, and should not practice it. How that in your mind means it is dangerous to the other 99% who in fact have actual positive results, is beyond any reasonable explanation! It's just bias, fear, and prejudice. "Airplanes are dangerous because you hear of crashes and people getting killed!" This is the mentality that does what you are doing. Paranoia.
Contemplative prayer used vain repetitions of words known as mantra, you may correct me if I’m wrong. I believed that your perspective based on every belief has its own God. My gauge on detection is by thoroughly checking if Jesus taught us to do the vain repetition or that kind of prayers.

Nonsense. You avoid it because you are scared of it. That's fine. You don't have to do it. But don't lie and say it's because Jesus taught you how to pray as you do. The only place Jesus taught how to prayer was when he cited the "Our Father", or he told us not stand on street corners and pray to be heard of others but to pray in secret.
There is a difference of the word “scare” and “awareness,” scare is fearful and frightened while awareness is knowing of a certain things that may cause danger, thus preventing me to fall on the danger, this is wisdom. We wore the armor of God as the Scripture stated. We submit and follow, we don’t just follow James 4:8 “Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded,” we don’t stop on this Scripture, and leave the other Scripture outside of our ears.
Matt.6:6-7
6. "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will repay you.
7. "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition, as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.

Can you show me where Jesus actually taught specific practices and techniques? I mean, not you finding verses to support what you came to through others, but I mean him teaching it directly? No? Then Centering Prayer is no more or less doing what Jesus told us to do, which is to pray. He never specifies techniques. You are lying to say otherwise.
There is no Centering and Breathe Prayer technique that Jesus taught us. :shrug: That is why I don’t apply it to my prayer. If Jesus never specify a technique, then why add a technique? Who make them to add this technique? Is Jesus teaching on prayer was insufficient or wrong?:(

Applying it would mean addition of another doctrine or theology of prayer. I don’t see Jesus told His disciples to do breathing/centering technique nor when He is praying to the Father.
You certainly show all the earmarks of one who has to be right. You ignore what others say and just repeat the same old mantras that have been dismantled with the fine scalpels of research, education, reason, facts, and experiences, and just come back to your arguments never addressing why our critiques of your claims are in error. You just keep repeating the same things that have been shown to be false. This is not truth seeking. This is about wanting to be right. It's stubbornness.
We both have our own spiritual experiences. We are not able to meet our point of view regarding contemplatives. Naturally, you may think it as false for you and mine was right, or vise versa. What I had shared is based only in the Scripture, which I would like the contemplative practitioner to dig in what the Scripture is saying.;)

I'm glad you did! It give us an opportunity to bring out in the open this sort of misinformation and show it to be fraudulent. Thank you for the good that is coming to light from us being able to analyze your sources of this.
Same with me.;)

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Not everyone believes that statement in the way you do.
Hi Sojourner,
But you believe Jesus is the truth, not partial truth?
According to what source of reckoning?
The reality and truth that it is winter in your place, just telling you that there is truth.
From the gospels. But how is that question cogent to this particular issue?
Where did you get the text that you are the light and salt as you said this statement, “Yet, Jesus says that we are the light of the world. Jesus says that we are salt.”?By Yoshua
That you believe and trusted the Scripture, that is what I want to clear up with you. But I don’t know why you insist to reject the Scripture, its translation, original text, Paul’s text etc..?
Correct. They're only a record of what someone said Jesus said. From a time-distance of at least 40 years.
Then, why quote and believe the gospels?
There is no "evil one."
Oh I see. If you don’t believe there is evil in this world, you cannot and will not know what is evil or not, unless you believed in the Scripture that evil exists.

How can there is God/good and no evil/bad? Logically, if there is God, there is moral and immoral.
May I ask this question:
The Nazis who killed 3,000 Jews, an act of evil or not?
God is absolute truth. But we cannot fully apprehend God from all angles. Therefore, our perspective limits the truth we have, meaning that the truth we have (about God) is not absolute. But our limited perspective can be "right." IOW, we can see that an elephant has a trunk -- but we can only see the trunk. So we say, "An elephant is like a huge snake." That's partially true -- the elephant's trunk is like a big snake. But that's not all an elephant is.
I think it is better to say that our perspective are limited to know God, and this is according to the Scripture. You say the truth we have, that would mean we have the truth. I don’t think we have the truth, we (human) are corrupted, and there is no truth in us spiritually. The only truth that we have is, if we already become a follower of Christ, because of the Spirit of truth that guide us to righteousness.

Yes, the partial truth of those blind men are still in the process of knowing what is the absolute truth. They have the partial truth, that is there should be an absolute truth—the complete and whole truth. I believed that is God, that example of the elephant is God.

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Nope. I don't because one has to choose the paradigm that works for one. Xy works for me. But I realize that Xy isn't the only valid paradigm.
Hi Sojourner,

Therefore, you may say that you can take some practices from those faiths/beliefs (Buddhism, Sufism, Taoism, Hiduism and New Age)?

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Instead of posting stupid emoticons, how about you try to respond with intelligent points to my intelligent posts? Do you have any intelligent points? I somewhat doubt that as you didn't make any and instead posted this.
I posted this emoticon as saying I agree with what you are saying. I think you need to control yourself and pray first before you post your message. I don’t see that you know how to appreciate things that agrees with your message like Sojourner.;)

So the "don'ts" of scripture is to not do what works in your spiritual path? That sounds to me like a huge "don't" right there.
Our “don’ts” of Scripture is a warning, a call or a reminder to watch out for those things that may lead you to a doctrinal teachings not in line with the Scripture. Therefore, with this, we may be able to concentrate and focus to a right direction in worshiping Him. Why? did God did not warn you anything to be aware with those?o_O

Again though, you are only seeing in scripture what your mind allows you to see. You are a fundamentalist. And you only see fundamentalist Jesus in scripture. I do not see Fundi Christ, myself. I see something a bit more open, more spiritual, less focused on "doe's and don'ts", and I can give you tons of scriptures that support that. They are quite clear to me, where you cannot see them even though you are looking right at them.
Oh. :eek:Everyone who has their faith whether he is a Buddhist, Muslims, Hindus etc.. can claim they have their spiritual enlightenment, higher self, more spiritual etc...The question here are: what is their basis of spiritual enlightenment, more spiritual etc..? :shrug:Are their basis of true enlightenment/more spiritual is the truth of God?

By the way, if I may ask, why less focused on do’s and don’ts in Scripture if you seek God in more spiritual and higher self?

I’m looking forward to the tons of Scriptures rather than exchanging of our views and comments without the Scriptures as basis. This is a better idea.
Because you are not facing yourself. God is there to help face yourself. It's like going to a psychologist and telling them how much you believe in them, but then never let them help you figure out what's wrong with you. "I believe in Jesus, and he makes me whole by just believing! I don't need to look at myself! Jesus fixed me!" Denial. That's what this form of religion is. Escapism. "Im perfectly fine, Dr. Christ covers it all up through my faith in him".
Yes I know. I committed and submitted myself to God. Submission and obedience to His will through His words.:)

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
I wanted to add a thought to this whole thing of going to Dr. Jesus for miracle fixes. I really do think that this is a form of self-avoidance. It's running to a "savior" to make all the bad parts we don't like about ourselves to magically be taken away from us. To simply say, "I trust in Jesus" is not enough. You have to grow, and that takes work on your part. To simply "believe", does not get you around needing to work on yourself, albeit through faith.

What faith does, how it plays a part, is that it allows you to trust in God that you will not fall when you face the darkness. But YOU must face the darkness. Faith sustains through that process, not allows you to bypass it. Furthermore, it also allows you to forgive yourself because you accept through faith God's forgiveness. Someone can tell themselves intellectually they accept that they are saved because the Bible says so, but is that really, truly genuinely accepting that forgiveness for ourselves? If we truly are, then we are forgiving ourselves. And that is the first step, the cornerstone as it were upon which we are able to forgive others and live in Peace with God, ourselves, and the world.

But if the person is hiding from themselves, hiding their dark bits down deep, not wanting to look there because it may "open the door to Satan!", they truly have not accepted that Grace in themselves. The entire edifice of their belief system is in "correctly obeying the word of God," and it does not realize that Freedom that Spirit brings as we become liberated from this deep fear and constant avoidance.
Grace was given not to do one’s own will, but by God’s will. Grace has given not be abused and do all what you want; this is not Christianity, a true follower must commit, obey, submit and trust in God. Not my will, but yours be done. The Spirit of truth will not lead a follower of Christ by the desire of his flesh,but by the desire of the Spirit of God.

Luke 14:27
27. "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

Ps. 143:10
10. Teach me to do Your will, For You are my God; Your Spirit is good. Lead me in the land of uprightness.

1 Cor.2:11-12
11. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

Thanks
 
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