What is Contemplative Christianity?

[Desert Snake]

This is all in the context of you not knowing what you're talking about here. You can pontificate and suppose all you want to. It changes nothing about the reality of the matter.

This is in the context of your idea of who/what ''God'', is? Perhaps try explaining that in the context of your argument.

 

[sojourner]

dude, half of my ethnic heritage is 'from', east of Israel, as in geographically. /You do mean this in a geographical sense?/ The point is, you are the one who brought up ''eastern'', religion, in regards to Xianity.

Great! Then you should be able to easily recognize Xy as an Eastern religion. Just because you're from "east of Israel" doesn't mean that "Eastern" can't be located west of your particular area.



Dude.

 

[sojourner]

This is in the context of your idea of who/what ''God'', is? Perhaps try explaining that in the context of your argument.

"My idea of who/what God is" has nothing to do with contemplation as a Christian spiritual discipline.

 

[InChrist]

Based on what? I'm waiting for someone to show any scripture that says this could happen. Besides, as I said elsewhere, no practitioner of meditation understands "emptying the mind" to mean becoming a complete blank where you become like a zombie. I posted this earlier that what you are "emptying" is the distracting chattering of internal thoughts that constantly swirl about ineffectively inside your head, cluttering and clouding the mind from being aware of reality because of the distraction. You still the constant stream of thoughts, you empty yourself of all that excess and unnecessary noise. That is all that is going on. And the result of this is not going "blank", but in reality you become more aware, more attentive, more present, more conscious, and so forth. The exact 100,000% opposite of going blank. You become much more consciously aware than when you constantly unaware because of not being able to pay attention due to the constant barrage of noise going on in our heads.

It astounds me that the fear that people express about something they clearly have no good information about. Let me give you another term than emptying the mind. Quieting the mind. Do you believe quieting the mind, sitting still silently besides a creek and listening to the world around you opens you to Satan? Or does it open you to God?


Meditation is quieting the mind in order to truly listen to Spirit. If you are only trying to understand God with your reasoning mind, then you are not following scripture, as true worship is in Spirit and in Truth, both of which are beyond the reasoning mind. The actual reality of what happens when you quiet the mind this way is you become actually able to see what is being said in scripture. Prior to that illumination, you are only using your own thoughts and ideas about God to attempt to penetrate Spirit.

Quieting one's mind and thoughts to sit beside a creek and think upon the God of heaven and earth is perfectly fine as long as one's reason is not set aside. The scriptures never indicate that one should do so...“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18

I believe the kind of meditation you have described is wrong because it is is characterized by self-centered objectives, often using techniques like concentrating on objects, exercising “controlled” breathing, and uttering mantras — all with the purpose of emptying the mind of all kinds of distractions which supposedly will enable a person to reach an altered state of awareness or consciousness. A state which draws people away from God by encouraging them to look inwardly to themselves rather than to God. I believe anyone in this state of looking inward to self or in an altered state is susceptible to demonic influence. Biblical meditation calls us to look upward and outward to God so that our minds may be filled with godly wisdom and insight, and so that our hearts may be filled with comfort, happiness, and joy.

Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Your sight,
O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer. Psalm 19:14

 

[Desert Snake]

"My idea of who/what God is" has nothing to do with contemplation as a Christian spiritual discipline.

Whaa? And why is that?

 

[sojourner]

I think God's words in the scriptures are well worth the time as they give light and point to eternity...
Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path. Psalm 119:105

You realize, of course, that the psalm isn't referencing the bible -- or anything written. The "word" is the promise -- the covenant.

 

[sojourner]

I think it is important to distinguish between various forms of meditation,

It's important to know what one is talking about before one pontificates on a subject.

Eastern style meditation is an emptying of one's mind and it is this which makes one open and susceptible to any malevolent spiritual entity that wants to enter in and influence that person's empty mind.

It also opens one up to the Divine (which is the whole point). That's why I said that intention is important.

On the other hand, biblical meditation is actively thinking and deliberate contemplation on the words of God and truths about Him in the scriptures.

1) Christianity and Judaism are Eastern religions that have become "Westernized." 2) "Biblical meditation" is, essentially, the same as "Eastern meditation."

Take a look at the biblical passage you quote in your next post:

"Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Your sight,
O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer. Psalm 19:14"

What do you think "Meditation of my heart" means? It isn't involving the head, or reason, or thinking, or reading. It involves feeling, imagination, and intuition. IOW: meditation.

I don't think it matters how much intention a human being has if they are participating in a practice which puts them in a place of vulnerability to spiritual beings who are much more powerful and have evil intentions toward humans.

What you think isn't relevant. What do you know about the subject?

 

[sojourner]

Quieting one's mind and thoughts to sit beside a creek and think upon the God of heaven and earth is perfectly fine as long as one's reason is not set aside. The scriptures never indicate that one should do so...“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18

If we're thinking and reasoning, we understand that sin has no color, such as white or scarlet. Further, we understand that sin has no texture, such as wool. Perceiving sin as having color and texture is achieved through the imagination --not through reason. And imagination is fostered through quieting the reasonable mind through ... meditation.

I believe the kind of meditation you have described is wrong because it is is characterized by self-centered objectives

No. It's not self-centered in the least. It's other-centered.

often using techniques like concentrating on objects,

Like written words on pages?

exercising “controlled” breathing,

Medical studies affirm that controlled breathing aids in relaxation, which serves to open (as opposed to close) the mind to God and the working of Holy Spirit.

“controlled” breathing, and uttering mantras

There is a meditation technique using what's called the "Jesus prayer." One prays the first clause while breathing in, then prays the second clause while breathing out. But I suppose that practice invites evil spirits?
Other "mantras," such as chanting or singing a single note is an attempt to help the practitioner "tune in" to the "universal vibration" -- the vibration that happened when "God said..." and spoke creation into being. But I suppose that practice invites evil spirits?

all with the purpose of emptying the mind of all kinds of distractions which supposedly will enable a person to reach an altered state of awareness or consciousness.

Sleep is an "altered state of consciousness." Shall we never sleep? They get you when you sleep, you know. Have you never seen Body Snatchers?!

A state which draws people away from God by encouraging them to look inwardly to themselves rather than to God.

The altered state is intended to bring one into propinquity with the Spirit that dwells within -- not to look "to themselves."

I believe anyone in this state of looking inward to self or in an altered state is susceptible to demonic influence.

This state makes one open. That's why the practice is undertaken with intention. "The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it." Where God is, evil cannot be.

Biblical meditation calls us to look upward and outward to God so that our minds may be filled with godly wisdom and insight, and so that our hearts may be filled with comfort, happiness, and joy.

That runs counter to what the bible says about meditation, which takes place, not in the head, but in the heart -- where sin has texture and color. How can one look outward, if one is focusing on an object, like a written word on a page?

Again: Pontification is best undertaken when you know what you're talking about.

 

[sojourner]

Whaa? And why is that?

Because the practice of contemplation isn't fabricated by me.

 

[Windwalker]

Quieting one's mind and thoughts to sit beside a creek and think upon the God of heaven and earth is perfectly fine as long as one's reason is not set aside.

I think we're making progress here. When you are sitting quietly besides the creek, are you actively engaging in discursive thoughts, or are you paying full attention to the moment by not going off somewhere inside your thoughts "thinking about it"? This is not ignoring reason, it is simply being aware of the world without turning your gaze away from the creek to the thoughts inside your head. It's not "against reason", it's not like you suddenly abandon reason and push your face under water and try to breathe! Reason is there, but it not the focus of your awareness at that moment. THAT is meditation practice. Not this imaginary "blank" I continue to hear people say it is.

The scriptures never indicate that one should do so...“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18

Yes, that verse is talking about engaging in reasoned thought. That's not meditation, nor is it the totality of how someone practices prayer. In fact, it's not about prayer at all. Not sure why you quoted it?

I believe the kind of meditation you have described is wrong because it is is characterized by self-centered objectives, often using techniques like concentrating on objects, exercising “controlled” breathing, and uttering mantras — all with the purpose of emptying the mind of all kinds of distractions which supposedly will enable a person to reach an altered state of awareness or consciousness.

Self-centered objectives? Respectfully, have you read anything I've posted? You sincerely do not understand what this is, or what I have been saying. What might help me to address these ideas you seem to have?

The purpose of these 'tools', are to bring the mind into focus so that you may see what is there the whole time. In these "open" states, it is really only "altered" in reference to the "normal" blaring rock concert going on in our "normal" states of consciousness, which are in reality not 'normal' at all! It's only normal because you've grown accustomed to it. Think of this "normal" like this. You live next to the train tracks in Chicago, the "El". Every 5 minutes the cars rumble past your house with all the constant noise. Pretty soon you adapt to it and learn how to filter out the noise to the point you aren't even aware of it. And then after 15 years of this "normal", you are taken out into the middle of a field in the country. This becomes an "altered state" to you, by point of reference. Where is all that noise? In reality, this is what is "normal". So quieting the mind and hearing the world without the distraction is not an "altered state" really, but the natural state. For me, the quieted mind has become more the norm for me, and when my mind becomes chatty again, that is noticed as abnormal, something I am not used to anymore, and can hear quite clearly that train rumbling in my backyard.

As far as my objectives, it is to abandon myself to the knowledge of God, for God's sake. If you consider that self-centered, I think you need to define what isn't then.

A state which draws people away from God by encouraging them to look inwardly to themselves rather than to God.

You haven't in fact read anything I've posted. What can I say to help you understand that by entering into silence it not be looking at yourself at all for self-gain, but that the inward silence is to learn how to let yourself to allow God, to get the heck out of the way. The purpose of the practice is to learn how to overcome all of your self-seeking. That is 100% the exact opposite of what you imagine it to be.

I believe anyone in this state of looking inward to self or in an altered state is susceptible to demonic influence.

Why? Based on what? I have yet to hear any support for this. I have been practicing meditation every day for one hour each morning for the last 5 years straight. I would think I should be thoroughly demon-possed by now if this were true! My head should be spinning around all day and green vomit spewing out of my mouth with glowing red eyes as I run naked through the streets. I would think monasteries, temples, and ashrams the world over would be full of demon-possessed zombies everywhere, frothing at the mouth if this were the case. But that's not what we see, of course.

I can tell you my experience from the practice, and it matches what others who practice it say. I am calmer, more patient, more aware, more at peace with myself, others, and the world, I am more compassionate, better communication, happier, full of joy in living, more abundant giving, more creative, and the list goes on and on and on. All of these are magnitudes deeper and higher ever since I started my practice 5 years ago. All of these are the fruits of the Spirit. An evil tree cannot bear good fruit, says Jesus. Does the devil cast out the devil with the devil? That a strange idea, and one that the religious accused Jesus of doing. I'm not sure when this demon possession is supposed to happen? Apparently I must be doing something right then.

Biblical meditation calls us to look upward and outward to God so that our minds may be filled with godly wisdom and insight, and so that our hearts may be filled with comfort, happiness, and joy.

It also instructs you to look within. Go into your closest and pray in secret. Make clean the inside of the cup first, says Jesus. Then the outside will clean itself. It's all about the Spirit within. It's everywhere in the NT. The kingdom of heaven is within you, says Jesus.

Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Your sight,
O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer. Psalm 19:14

The heart is within. Amen!

 

[lovemuffin]

Aren't we (according to scripture) to prove ALL things?

How do we prove all things? What is the standard by which we measure our experiences? If meditation is a Christian practice which includes more than simply pondering the scriptures, wouldn't there be passages that detail and teach the applications? Would a good God tell us to prove all things without a standard in which we know it is truth? If truth is subjective, it is not truth, it is mere opinion, tradition and man made rituals, (none of which makes something true.)

It is interesting that your question assumes that proof must take the form of an exegetical argument from the Bible. Here is the passage you are referring to:

"We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves. And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all. See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone. Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but test [or prove -- WN] everything; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil. Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it." (1 Thess 5:12-23)
​

I think there are several points worth making here.

1. There is an admonishment to be respectful to those "who are over you in the Lord", i.e there is a model of church authority which is not centered around exegesis of scriptural texts
2. Given the likely dating of 1 Thessalonians (early 50s C.E.), the text pre-dates the vast majority of the N.T., so clearly "test everything" does not refer to testing things on the basis of their correspondence to a non-existent collection of texts
3. The injunction to "prove" is directly tied to evaluating prophecy, or predictions about the future. This is a fairly limited context, and while I think it's valid to extrapolate to a general principle (and Christians always have), it's worth keeping this in mind
4. The method of testing is implied by the very next clause: keep what is good. This is the same sort of standard as "by their fruits you will know them", and I think in Paul's understanding this can be tied directly to his various lists of Christian virtues or "fruits of the Spirit", and his morality. It is not the ability to cite a text which constitutes a proof, it is the consequences of choices, or the result of various dispositions which are evaluated according to their goodness. What is necessary is to abstain from evil, and in accordance with Paul's general morality (and the N.T. in general, especially perhaps the Sermon on the Mount) to love, forgive, show mercy, and do good to others.
5. "Do not quench the Spirit" is a provocative phrase. If we assume a model of authority and evaluation of Christian practices that is entirely based on citing biblical texts, of what use then is the Spirit? What does it mean to quench it? It is after all the Spirit that will "lead you into all truth", according to John's gospel, the very same which noted that not everything that Jesus did or said could be written down. It seems clear in context with the N.T. that the Spirit represents a movement of God which can't be reduced only to a rote text. "The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" after all.

 

[sassysam29]

I am confused because we cannot obtain proof of anything without an absolute authoritative standard. I can say "god wants me to do xyz" and without a definitive standard, my claims cannot be proved nor disproved. If the scriptures are subjective, they cannot be truth.

 

[sassysam29]

Btw, I still don't know how to use this forum correctly haha. I cannot seem to select a post to respond to.

 

[sojourner]

I am confused because we cannot obtain proof of anything without an absolute authoritative standard. I can say "god wants me to do xyz" and without a definitive standard, my claims cannot be proved nor disproved. If the scriptures are subjective, they cannot be truth.

Do you believe that it't true that you love someone? Prove that love objectively by some "definitive standard."


I'm waiting...

 

[sassysam29]

I think that we can look to God for the definitive standard and example of love. Can I prove the emotion of the love I feel? No I cannot, but I have an absolute standard of what love is and what love isn't. My feelings are subjective, but the example of love God gives is not.

 

[sassysam29]

I can't say I love you and hit you because love is gentle, if the standard is subjective then love becomes anything we make it.

 

[Desert Snake]

I am confused because we cannot obtain proof of anything without an absolute authoritative standard. I can say "god wants me to do xyz" and without a definitive standard, my claims cannot be proved nor disproved. If the scriptures are subjective, they cannot be truth.

Yes, that is precisely the issue. What is being claimed as ''Christian contemplation'', isn't contemplation, in many descriptions.

Btw, I still don't know how to use this forum correctly haha. I cannot seem to select a post to respond to.

You click on ''quote''.
then
Scroll down to empty reply box.
then, click ''insert quotes', box.
the quotes will then be inside the typing box , and you reply outside of the persons "quote" brackets.

 

[sassysam29]

Yes, that is precisely the issue. What is being claimed as ''Christian contemplation'', isn't contemplation, in many descriptions. This indicates to me that most likely, the people thinking that emptying the mind is the ''same thing'', as contemplation, are not very knowlegable concerning meditation practices. Why is this a ''problem''? I think it is a problem for exactly the reason you are indicating here, namely, that whatever it is, this isn't Christian contemplation', which would utilize the concept of the Xian God, not a ''mysterious feeling'', or whatever. This is also why I have a problem with some of the descriptions I have read about this idea, ie, it isn't a Christian, or necessarily Xian, 'outcome', which is being described. This brings up the issue of, they don't really know whats causing the feelings, etc/ no reason to claim it's because they are experiencing God, or anything.



You click on ''quote''.
then
Scroll down to empty reply box.
then, click ''insert quotes', box.
the quotes will then be inside the typing box , and you reply outside of the persons "quote" brackets.

Thank you.

 

[InChrist]

It's important to know what one is talking about before one pontificates on a subject.

It also opens one up to the Divine (which is the whole point). That's why I said that intention is important.

1) Christianity and Judaism are Eastern religions that have become "Westernized." 2) "Biblical meditation" is, essentially, the same as "Eastern meditation."

Take a look at the biblical passage you quote in your next post:

"Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Your sight,
O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer. Psalm 19:14"

What do you think "Meditation of my heart" means? It isn't involving the head, or reason, or thinking, or reading. It involves feeling, imagination, and intuition. IOW: meditation.


What you think isn't relevant. What do you know about the subject?

I know it is dangerous because I came out of the culture of the 60"s, 70"s, and 80"s where altered states of mind and eastern style meditation were prevalent. I know because I personally have had friends experience the dramatic dangers associated with such practices. There is a huge difference between biblical meditation https://bible.org/article/biblical-meditation and the eastern, mystical practice of meditation . Biblical meditation is filing one's mind with God's revealed truth while Eastern meditation is an emptying of the mind. "Christianizing" the latter does not make it any less dangerous when it comes to opening oneself to the spiritual realm.
When the Bible uses the term "heart" I don't believe it is referring to simply emotions or intuition, rather to one's whole being which includes one's mind and reasoning.

 

[sassysam29]

Do you believe that it't true that you love someone? Prove that love objectively by some "definitive standard."


I think that we can look to God for the definitive standard and example of love. Can I prove the emotion of the love I feel? No I cannot, but I have an absolute standard of what love is and what love isn't. My feelings are subjective, but the example of love God gives is not.