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What is energy?

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
does the author understand subject, a zpe that is omnipresent and has an EM radiation frequency spectrum of practically infinite density?
He might, but if so he's being deliberately misleading. He's playing fast and loose with words like "temperature", "density", and "radiation", and uses the word "empty" to describe the ground state, because as long as one thinks of it in terms of a classical vacuum then "empty" makes sense here. Lorenz transformations define what is invariant, but I suppose with context that might be made sense of. You got this from a physics paper? That's not possible. I must be forgetting what you said.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
btw...not knowing how many 'end of all things' documentaries I've seen....

I don't believe in time.....it's not o force or substance.
It is only a means of calculation.....a factor in an equation.

I do think, once we are free of the substance of life.....
we can then come and go as we please.
There is no limit to thought.


"not knowing how many 'end of all things' documentaries I've seen"

That is not really what I posted about and what we see now with the observable universe and rate of expansion.

"I don't believe in time"

I KNOW WHAT YOUR SAYIGeven in the way you stated it, but we might have an experiemnt going that might tell us more about the nature of time.
It looks like a discussion of the Doppler effect on a faster scale.
I've been down this discussion a lot....

Let's say for the moment....light has that speed and cannot do otherwise.

So, moving away from an object as the object moves in the opposite direction....
That would be twice the speed of light.
And...moving toward an object in collision path would also be twice the speed of light.

And some observations made indicate the universe is moving faster than the speed of light.

Light has a fixed quality, but the direction (motion) is relative.

Still, that need not apply to an item not of substance.
I suspect our spirits can move by thought.
We can't do so yet.....but it's pending.


"Let's say for the moment....light has that speed and cannot do otherwise." So far that is a fact that has not been broken.

"So, moving away from an object as the object moves in the opposite direction....
That would be twice the speed of light.
And...moving toward an object in collision path would also be twice the speed of light."

Doesn't work that way.

"And some observations made indicate the universe is moving faster than the speed of light."

Direct observations and people won a noble prize for the discovery. Space itself can expand faster then light but not matter, without breaking any physical laws.

"Still, that need not apply to an item not of substance."

The term substance, I think the way your using it would be matter.

"I suspect our spirits can move by thought."

Thoughts have speed limits, as well

"
Does the brain work at the Speed of Light?

No, far from it. Axons, the long output connection from a cell, come in two types: myelinated and unmyelinated. Myelinated axons have an extra layer of "insulation," a fatty substance, which allows the impulse to travel about 10 to 100 meters per second. Unmyelinated axons only transmit at about 1 meter per second. When the signal reaches the end, it has to cross the synapse to influence the next cell, which adds about 5 ms. 10 meters per second = 22.356 mph and 100 meters per second = 223.561 mph. As you can see it is a lot slower than the speed of light in a vacuum which is exactly 299,792,458 metres per second, or 186 000 miles per second, or 670,616,629 mph.

Human Brain Facts and Answers
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
He might, but if so he's being deliberately misleading. He's playing fast and loose with words like "temperature", "density", and "radiation", and uses the word "empty" to describe the ground state, because as long as one thinks of it in terms of a classical vacuum then "empty" makes sense here. Lorenz transformations define what is invariant, but I suppose with context that might be made sense of. You got this from a physics paper? That's not possible. I must be forgetting what you said.
Oh I doubt he was being misleading, the quote was from a United States Patent granted to Dr. Franklin B. Mead, Jr., ,Project Manager for Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL), Edwards AFB, CA. He was the project manager for the zpe based Teleportation study I uploaded earlier,


LOM, if you have the time to digest it and are inclined to share your opinion in language appropriate for those who have a technical, but non-scientist level background, it would be appreciated. Take your time...
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
"
"Let's say for the moment....light has that speed and cannot do otherwise." So far that is a fact that has not been broken.

"So, moving away from an object as the object moves in the opposite direction....
That would be twice the speed of light.
And...moving toward an object in collision path would also be twice the speed of light."

Doesn't work that way.
The term substance, I think the way your using it would be matter.

"I suspect our spirits can move by thought."

Thoughts have speed limits, as well

"
Does the brain work at the Speed of Light?

No, far from it. Axons, the long output connection from a cell, come in two types: myelinated and unmyelinated. Myelinated axons have an extra layer of "insulation," a fatty substance, which allows the impulse to travel about 10 to 100 meters per second. Unmyelinated axons only transmit at about 1 meter per second. When the signal reaches the end, it has to cross the synapse to influence the next cell, which adds about 5 ms. 10 meters per second = 22.356 mph and 100 meters per second = 223.561 mph. As you can see it is a lot slower than the speed of light in a vacuum which is exactly 299,792,458 metres per second, or 186 000 miles per second, or 670,616,629 mph.

Human Brain Facts and Answers

Fermi collisions occur at what speed?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
If it be true....there is a speed to ALL things.....

Then God might be away on a mission.
and the thought of your prayers will not be heard.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Oh I doubt he was being misleading, the quote was from a United States Patent
1) You doubt that someone seeking a patent would deliberately mislead? Do you believe everything advertisers say?
2) Even if he wasn't misleading, taking a few lines out of context (and inserting a period instead of finishing the sentence as written: "...make it very desirable as an energy source") is misleading. Your lines were taken from the middle of a paragraph and you cut off the ending and added a period instead.
3) His invention didn't work.

So, not only was this not a scholarly piece but a sales pitch to the government, it turned out to be a failure. What exactly am I supposed to now suddenly realize because you quote-mined a patent for a failed invention?
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Fermi collisions occur at what speed?

If your talking about Fermilab , no speed because they closed.

If your trying to say though something goes faster then light, it doesn't at least that we have found.

Cern doesn't go the speed of light either and its much bigger then Fermilab was and CERN can accelerate a particle to 99.99% the speed of light.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
1) You doubt that someone seeking a patent would deliberately mislead? Do you believe everything advertisers say?

2) Even if he wasn't misleading, taking a few lines out of context (and inserting a period instead of finishing the sentence as written: "...make it very desirable as an energy source") is misleading. Your lines were taken from the middle of a paragraph and you cut off the ending and added a period instead.

3) His invention didn't work.

So, not only was this not a scholarly piece but a sales pitch to the government, it turned out to be a failure. What exactly am I supposed to now suddenly realize because you quote-mined a patent for a failed invention?

1) Haha...do I detect jealousy? The patent was filed in July 1994 and the examiners had 2 &1/2 years to consult and consider the technology and principles involved, and granted the patent Dec 31, 1996. Most academics confined to hack work teaching, regurgitating mostly obsolete orthodox scientific dogma that applied scientists know will be only be replaced by the latest scientific knowledge when all the present academic custodians of educational orthodoxy die off, get green with envy to see these applied scientists make history with breakthroughs like this.

2) Are you not familiar with the proverb about obfuscating people swallowing mountains, but balking at molehills.. I posted the whole patent for you and about which you are responding,,,,and yet you ignore the actual full text of the relevant post and want to nitpick about a full stop in a sentence in a previous post...are you serious? How can posting of the whole text of the patent be in anyway misleading you? One can only guess that while for most people, the truth will set you free is an admirable saying, for some, if it destroys their delusion, it is horrible.

3) You can't be that naive? This is leading edge stuff, I mean that...the Russians, the Chinese, military intelligence of all shades are into zpe research. Dr Mead would have been instructed to get a 'waterproof' patent in and accepted at that time to tie up any zpe engineering that ever approximated what they thought had potential at that time. And as if anyone here would know how far the invention has been exploited, if it has been, for it would be top secret.....FTL space travel, Teleportation, etc...does anyone here have the security clearance to know that the principle behind this patent is of no consequence? It is like talking to a child...one prone to paroxysms...
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
1) Haha...do I detect jealousy?
Um...no, why?

The patent was filed in July 1994 and the examiners had 2 &1/2 years to consult and consider the technology and principles involved, and granted the patent Dec 31, 1996.
Are you aware of the procedure for approving patents and how little depends on whether it the invention or product works vs. whether it is not infringement, illegal, dangerous, etc?
A popular, sensationalist type book was published in ~2005-2009 on using "zero-point energy" some time in the future. Recent articles I've read (some I stumbled on looking for sources for you or for concise material I could quote that explains things better than I can) have concerned the potential use of zero-point energy.

All you have is a guy whom you misquoted out of context and whose invention failed that you used misleadingly:
So I post the following as quite typical of zpe description from which I get my understanding.
Because it exists in a vacuum, zero point radiation is homogeneous and isotropic as well as ubiquitous. In addition, since zero point radiation is also invariant with respect to Lorentz transformation, the zero point radiation spectrum has the characteristic that the intensity of the radiation at any frequency is proportional to the cube of that frequency. Consequently, the intensity of the radiation increases without limit as the frequency increases resulting in an infinite energy density for the radiation spectrum. With the introduction of the zero point radiation into the classical electron theory, a vacuum at a temperature of absolute zero is no longer considered empty of all electromagnetic fields. The special characteristics of the zero point radiation which are that it has a virtually infinite energy density and that it is ubiquitous (even present in outer space).

The typical description of zero-point energy for you comes from patents? Seriously? That's what you're going with?

Do just read patents as a hobby or is it the Einstein connection that motivates quote-mining patents?

Most academics confined to hack work teaching, regurgitating mostly obsolete orthodox scientific dogma that applied scientists know will be only be replaced by the latest scientific knowledge when all the present academic custodians of educational orthodoxy die off, get green with envy to see these applied scientists make history with breakthroughs like this.

Who do you think gets contracts from NASA, DARPA, the CIA, the NSA, private think-tanks, private militaries, and other government agencies and private companies dealing with proprietary and/or classified information about cutting edge technologies? MIT, Harvard, JHU's APL, etc. When DARPA initiated ARPAnet (the original internet) it was universities that made up most of the internet. The programming language (scripting, technically) that the entire world wide web is based upon? It was developed for academics to share information. Do you know who first produced the method to take MSU readings from satellites to construct a global temperature record? Two scientists at the University of Alabama at Huntsville. They are still under contract with the NOAA to produce these records. The most abstract and probably least applied area in mathematics (i.e., arguably we're not even dealing with the sciences anymore) is number theory. Cryptography in its entirety is number theory.

Basically, the "breakthroughs" you imagine that applied scientists developed came mostly from the "educational orthodoxy" you disdain. The number of PhDs with government contracts who are not, will not, or haven't already held university appointments is tiny.

I posted the whole patent for you and about which you are responding
You misquoted part of it, ripped from context and asked me to interpret it. Then, you declare some sort of triumph because someobody was awarded proprietary status for junk that ended up nowhere and as nothing. Your (mis)quote-mining of patents is supposed to make me think you have the faintest idea of physics, the sciences, or scientific research? What's next? How we should understand quantum physics because of Verizon Fios Quantum?

,,,,and yet you ignore the actual full text
Actually I read the entire patent in two different forms and looked into the applicants background, just to be sure how seriously I should take the patent in its entirety versus your original misquote taken out-of-context.

How can posting of the whole text of the patent be in anyway misleading you?

I quoted your original question with the original quote above. It wasn't the full-text, but a (mis)quote-mined piece of a paragraph in a patent that you described as a "typical description" of zero-point energy.


3) You can't be that naive?
I'm not. I just know enough people with contracts requiring clearance (hell, my uncle works for JHU's APL and requires both clearance and special military grade encryption/protection systems (hardware and software) even for his phone. HCII conferences have military personnel every year. I've never done contract work for the government but have for research companies and think-tanks and companies in DC that I am not sure what they do and I don't want to know. Napalm was developed right near my lab.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
If your talking about Fermilab , no speed because they closed.

If your trying to say though something goes faster then light, it doesn't at least that we have found.

Cern doesn't go the speed of light either and its much bigger then Fermilab was and CERN can accelerate a particle to 99.99% the speed of light.

The particles are made to collide head on.
Are you then to the notion.....the head on collision is not 2C?
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
Why are the particles random to each other ?
2/~C ? maybe ?
Why not in tandem ?
~
'mud
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Patenting doesn't make whatever being "patent" useful or right.

Patenting does make something being "scientific" as well.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
The particles are made to collide head on.
Are you then to the notion.....the head on collision is not 2C?

Its NOT twice the speed of light.


Large Hadron Collider News Update – Protons Smashed at 99% Speed of Light


"Here’s the breaking news update regarding the latest experiment on the Large Hadron Collider – the New Era of Physics is upon us. As you see in the photo above, the scientists from CERN – European Organization for Nuclear Research are clapping their hands in joy after Large Hadron Collider, their $10 Billion project that took 16 years to realize has successfully directed subatomic particles – two proton beams into each other, smashing them at three times more force than ever before. The beams reached 99% of the speed of light."

Large Hadron Collider News Update - Protons Smashed at 99% Speed of Light
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Its NOT twice the speed of light.


Large Hadron Collider News Update – Protons Smashed at 99% Speed of Light


"Here’s the breaking news update regarding the latest experiment on the Large Hadron Collider – the New Era of Physics is upon us. As you see in the photo above, the scientists from CERN – European Organization for Nuclear Research are clapping their hands in joy after Large Hadron Collider, their $10 Billion project that took 16 years to realize has successfully directed subatomic particles – two proton beams into each other, smashing them at three times more force than ever before. The beams reached 99% of the speed of light."

Large Hadron Collider News Update - Protons Smashed at 99% Speed of Light

So the particles are moving at half the speed of light as the collision is about to happen?

point is.......in the moment of collision the speed of BOTH particles head on is the correct impact.

If you cross the road at 70mph and hit the other car also doing 70mph....
the impact is 140mph
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
And don't cross GO and go directly to jail !
After you stop !
And reform !
~
'mud
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
A microscopic piece of non important flotsum floating in the soap of the photons filling the bowl and then thanes.
We humans are just more flotsum,
watching the photons fill everything right out to that 'void' that 'fills' the rest,
what came after the singularity inflated ?
We have to discover the width of a photon, and how many there are ??
Light and plasmic rippling of the filled bowl of expansion going on now and into the future,
for trillions of years and then it will to cool ?
I mean, was the gravity exausted ??
Does the 'void' deaminize to 'nothingness',
that's got to be a bit of a division problem doesn't it.
How many times can one divide everything by everything,
sum the slices, along every direction.
How wide is a photon ?
~
'mud
 
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`mud

Just old
Premium Member
Another question about waves, light, energy, and plasmic substances,
Every photon has a source of it's inertia, doesn't it ?
What's it's life expectancy ?
I wonder about those dumb things.
'Splain it to me.
~
'mud
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
"If you cross the road at 70mph and hit the other car also doing 70mph....
the impact is 140mph
"

at least reword that one will you, add some vectors or such.
"..crossing..."
Oh well...what's the problem here ????
Nothing ever was beyond light speed, they were both stopping, suddenly !
Splashing photons all over the place !
~
'mud
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
So the particles are moving at half the speed of light as the collision is about to happen?

point is.......in the moment of collision the speed of BOTH particles head on is the correct impact.

If you cross the road at 70mph and hit the other car also doing 70mph....
the impact is 140mph

Does't work that way with that formula. Its also very complicated.

 
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