What is energy?

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes Thief, and when you consider the nature underlying vibrational harmonics, and EM wave transmission, you are describing spherical standing waves. They would form with different phases, positive and negative, and at different sizes, depending on the frequencies...

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Now present orthodox science, if I understand it correctly, puts a limit on the smaller wavelength side as Planck length (1.6 x 10-35 m), which means the quantum vacuum would appear granular if one could 'see' the vibrational frequency at this wavelength. However in Zero Point Energy research, there is some speculation that the EM spectrum quantum vacuum vibrations continues to 1 x 10-115 m, and some even to the infinitesimal.

The (misleadingly named) "quantum vacuum" is merely the lowest energy state, which is why another name for it (and a better one) is the ground state. At least that's the quantum vacuum associated with zero-point energy. Another conception of the quantum vacuum is more holistic, and considers all vacuums (and is more of a "pure" particle physics approach than QED). In this view, as these vacuums are everywhere and their nature entirely different from classical vacuums, their effects the basis for just about everything (all experiments with quantum physics involve, or require, the effects of these vacuums), we can employ Dirac's "sea" notion and thing of quantum vacuums as the "sea" of elementary particles and antiparticles.

If the vibrations indeed form an infinite continuum, then the concept of spirit/aether/dark energy/etc., could be that EM energy spectrum below the Planck length.

This has no meaning

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I said...If the vibrations indeed form an infinite continuum, then the concept of spirit/aether/dark energy/etc., could be that EM energy spectrum below the Planck length.

This has no meaning

To you LOM....not to me and others who can see, wrt to classical science trying to come to grips with dark energy, aether, spirit, etc., that the emperor wears no clothes....

What is your proof that the ZPE EM spectrum wavelengths do not extend beyond Planck length (in the smaller direction)?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I said...If the vibrations indeed form an infinite continuum, then the concept of spirit/aether/dark energy/etc., could be that EM energy spectrum below the Planck length.

To you LOM....not to me and others who can see, wrt to classical science trying to come to grips with dark energy, aether, spirit, etc., that the emperor wears no clothes....

What is your proof that the ZPE EM spectrum wavelengths do not extend beyond Planck length (in the smaller direction)?

I meant that your description of the physics reflects that of one who quote-mines sources he or she doesn't understand and ends up with garbled nonsense as a result, not that you were wrong (to say you were wrong would be the same as saying "the borogroves were not mimsy and the mome raths were not outgrabe" is wrong or that Dodgson was right; it's just nonsense without truth-value).

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I meant that your description of the physics reflects that of one who quote-mines sources he or she doesn't understand and ends up with garbled nonsense as a result, not that you were wrong (to say you were wrong would be the same as saying "the borogroves were not mimsy and the mome raths were not outgrabe" is wrong or that Dodgson was right; it's just nonsense without truth-value).

Is English your second language or is it that you have never actually done any practical work with EM wave propagation to understand the principles behind what is being said to you?

In lieu of the question in my last post....just tell us what part of the EM frequency spectrum you think comprises the zero point energy pressure responsible for the Casimir Effect?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Is English your second language or is it that you have never actually done any practical work with EM radio propagation to understand what is being said to you?

You are speaking of topics that concern first and foremost the most studied QFT, QED, and "radio propagation" is irrelevant here, as it is in all other possible contexts in which one might speak of quantum fluctuations, zero-point energy, & quantum vacuums. EM radio propagation is dealt with classically (the exceptions to this are wholly lacking from any descriptions you've provided). However, if you wish to argue that your understanding here...sorry, that you understand anything relevant here, by all means formulate (using Dirac notation or any linear/matrix algebra notation you wish) how ground states/quantum vacuums come into play in "radio propagation" (and in particular radio frequency cavities).

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

What is your proof that the ZPE EM spectrum wavelengths do not extend beyond Planck length (in the smaller direction)?

For those who are less interested in jargon and more interested in physics, Planck length is about the closest we have to a quantum/classical divide (it is not a true divide, as quantum processes have been shown to exist well beyond it, but it is a divide in the sense that classical physics is wholly inadequate here). Thus zero-point energy and indeed all of quantum mechanics, quantum field theory (including quantum electrodynamics, whence the quantum vacuum enters into play most directly) all concern primarily phenomena that "do not extend beyond Planck length (in the smaller direction)". The above is akin to asking for a proof that quantum physics works at the quantum level.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You are speaking of topics that concern first and foremost the most studied QFT, QED, and "radio propagation" is irrelevant here, as it is in all other possible contexts in which one might speak of quantum fluctuations, zero-point energy, & quantum vacuums. EM radio propagation is dealt with classically (the exceptions to this are wholly lacking from any descriptions you've provided). However, if you wish to argue that your understanding here...sorry, that you understand anything relevant here, by all means formulate (using Dirac notation or any linear/matrix algebra notation you wish) how ground states/quantum vacuums come into play in "radio propagation" (and in particular radio frequency cavities).

Hmm..LOM, are you a hands on researcher into zpe applications and have you worked on defense contracts in this area?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

For those who are less interested in jargon and more interested in physics, Planck length is about the closest we have to a quantum/classical divide (it is not a true divide, as quantum processes have been shown to exist well beyond it, but it is a divide in the sense that classical physics is wholly inadequate here). Thus zero-point energy and indeed all of quantum mechanics, quantum field theory (including quantum electrodynamics, whence the quantum vacuum enters into play most directly) all concern primarily phenomena that "do not extend beyond Planck length (in the smaller direction)". The above is akin to asking for a proof that quantum physics works at the quantum level.

So then I take it you do not think there are any scientists around who consider there may be EM waves beyond Planck Length in the smaller direction?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

So then I take it you do not think there are any scientists around who consider there may be EM waves beyond Planck Length in the smaller direction?

If I understand aright what you mean by the "smaller direction" (i.e., smaller than Planck length), the answer is so obviously true it is absurd. As I said, it is akin to asking whether or not quantum physics is an adequate approach to understanding the quantum realm (i.e., it's like asking whether or not quantum physics is adequate compared to classical physics when it comes to the quantum realm). Every single scientists believes that there are such waves, although of course by "waves" they mean something you don't understand. It's a ridiculous question either way, as all physical systems are waves (but become particle-like extremely quickly as one goes from the subatomic to the atomic to the molecular scale and beyond).

 

[HonestJoe]

Just because thoughts do not exist as "independent things" does not imply they do not exist. No physical object exist as an "independent thing."

That rather depends on how you're using the word "exist" and your general perception of things. Do thoughts really exist or are they just a conceptual label that we use to categorise functions of our brains?

I have an apple on my desk. It is my apple - I bought it and I will eat it with my lunch. The apple obviously exists as a physical object but does my apple specifically exist? It's clearly a distinct object from all other apples but if I ceased to exist, my apple would no longer be a valid concept but the physical apple would be unchanged. The concept of my apple doesn't exist on its own, it is merely a consequence of my existence and the processes of my brain.

There is a clear distinction between physical objects and thoughts or concepts - they're different things. I'd suggest they really need different words to define their existence because when I say "the apple" exists, I mean something different to when I say "my apple" exists. It's only a failing of language that makes this conversation difficult and we have to acknowledge that if we're going to address such concepts.

And to drag this vaguely back to your topic, I'd suggest the idea of things being in some way spiritual is existence of the thought type rather than the physical object type. Would gods exist if we weren't here to think about them?

 

[Thief]

Yes Thief, and when you consider the nature underlying vibrational harmonics, and EM wave transmission, you are describing spherical standing waves. They would form with different phases, positive and negative, and at different sizes, depending on the frequencies...

Is this not the basic construction of the atom?
or are we thinking of different items altogether?

 

[`mud]

I find the math and convulutions quite baffling.
It's like an emmense popcorn popper, that doesn't do the math.
The popcorn pops whenever it wants, in infnite undulations.
Now with Thief's pretense, although close to accurate,
nothing moves at the speed of light.
What's the length of a photon, and the distance of it's coupling.
Keeping it staying 'put' is the primary problem.
There are no straight lines in the Cosmos.
Nor perfect circles.
Ahhhhhh....the circumference of this spiral,
and where is the center ?
~
'mud

 

[Thief]

I find the math and convulutions quite baffling.
It's like an emmense popcorn popper, that doesn't do the math.
The popcorn pops whenever it wants, in infnite undulations.
Now with Thief's pretense, although close to accurate,
nothing moves at the speed of light.
What's the length of a photon, and the distance of it's coupling.
Keeping it staying 'put' is the primary problem.
There are no straight lines in the Cosmos.
Nor perfect circles.
Ahhhhhh....the circumference of this spiral,
and where is the center ?
~
'mud

One old man to another.....you're right.
No straight lines.....no circles....

but those damn mathematicians.....!
what's an old guy to do?

 

[`mud]

One must first attempt to measure the length of a photon,
from there it's easy !
~
'mo

 

[Thief]

One must first attempt to measure the length of a photon,
from there it's easy !
~
'mo

AH!....but is that consideration as the photon is substance and stationary?
Or screaming across the universe to some unknown destination?

problems.....problems.....problems.....

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Every single scientists believes that there are such waves, although of course by "waves" they mean something you don't understand. It's a ridiculous question either way, as all physical systems are waves (but become particle-like extremely quickly as one goes from the subatomic to the atomic to the molecular scale and beyond).

Oh I understand alright,,.I just don't understand why you say they are not waves I understand your language about waves becoming particle-like as they go from the subatomic to the atomic. But that still leaves the so called vacuum in which these subatomic particles manifest.....of what do you think it is composed? You do understand what I am asking yes?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Is this not the basic construction of the atom?
or are we thinking of different items altogether?

I think your idea is similar yes. Intuition from the same source, but the description can only ever try and model the real, and in any event, it is also limited by our individual present understanding of the dynamics involved. As the energy of water waves is seen to travel, and yet the water does not, the underlying medium of space (zpe) does not travel, but EM wave energy travels at the speed of light.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

For those interested, here is a brief paper bu Hal Puthoff on possible ZPE application from 1998. It is not mathematical so easy reading for most with some technical understanding. It is interesting that the US Air Force was already exploring the potential of getting some for nothing (for those who think the vacuum of space is empty except for particles) as can be seen from this 1998 RFP.....

"Request for proposals for the FY-1986 Defense SBIR Program. Under entry AF86-77, Air Force Rocket Propulsion Laboratory (AFRPL), Topic: Non-Conventional Propulsion Concepts we f ind the statement: ª Bold,
new non-conventional propulsion concepts are solicited.... The speci fic areas in which AFRPL is interested include.... (6) Esoteric energy sources for propulsion including the zero point quantum dynamic energy of vacuum space.º

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Oh...and for those who are into math, here is a later evolution 2010 paper....ADVANCED SPACE PROPULSION BASED ON VACUUM ENGINEERING that I've uploaded.

And also I upload this Air Force Research Laboratory (AFMC) research paper on Teleportation Physics Study based on the manipulation of either the general relativistic spacetime metric or the spacetime vacuum electromagnetic (zero-point fluctuations) parameters.