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What is Evidence?

soulsurvivor

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Again, again and again . . . videos and photos are NOT accepted as evidence for obvious reasons as previously described,
I don't know what kind of scientist you are. Obviously not a hands-on, real one or an active one who actually experiments. But I have worked in a radiology department of a research university sometime back and we used picture and links to videos in peer-reviewed papers all the time. I was never the main author (they tacked my name at the end because I helped with some minor stuff), but pictures especially, were commonly used and these days there are links to YouTube.
 

soulsurvivor

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It was published in a scientific journal and in many other articles that investigated this phony claim.

  1. Jayaraman, T. "Obscurantism vs Science – behind the milk drinking miracle". imsc.res.in. The Institute of Mathematical Sciences. Retrieved 20 April 2018.
Living in the delusions of denial of reality is your problem
This is not a journal - has no journal name or date of publication.

You are unwilling to try and unable demonstrate a phenomenon which you claim to be easily reproducible, You are no scientist at all.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
This is not a journal - has no journal name or date of publication.
I don't know what kind of scientist you are. Obviously not a hands-on, real one or an active one who actually experiments. But I have worked in a radiology department of a research university sometime back and we used picture and links to videos in peer-reviewed papers all the time. I was never the main author (they tacked my name at the end because I helped with some minor stuff), but pictures especially, were commonly used and these days there are links to YouTube.


You are unwilling to try and unable demonstrate a phenomenon which you claim to be easily reproducible, You are no scientist at all.
I am a hands on science for over fifty years in the field of geology, and your clinging to the delusion of the miraculous is appalling and overwhelming intentional ignorance of science and reality.

Ax before the use of images in your reference is NOT the evidence, but for illustrating documented evidence for which there is absolutely no independent evidence for your ridiculous claims of the supernatural based on a simple physical phenomenon
 

soulsurvivor

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I am a hands on science for over fifty years in the field of geology, and your clinging to the delusion of the miraculous is appalling and overwhelming intentional ignorance of science and rality.
Actually if you are unwilling to provide a video, just state that you have attempted to reproduce the phenomenon and succeeded exactly like the many videos on youtube. Please scientifically describe the object used - its size, material, the amount of milk absorbed into the object from a spoon. Include a picture of the object, that way you don't need someone to videotape you doing the experiment.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Actually if you are unwilling to provide a video, just state that you have attempted to reproduce the phenomenon and succeeded exactly like the many videos on youtube. Please scientifically describe the object used - its size, material, the amount of milk absorbed into the object from a spoon. Include a picture of the object, that way you don't need someone to videotape you doing the experiment.
I am a hands on science for over fifty years in the field of geology, and your clinging to the delusion of the miraculous is appalling and overwhelming intentional ignorance of science and reality.

You are blindly persistently ignoring the simple natural explanation as reference in many sources cited in the reference for a simple natural explanation for this intentional hoax to manipulate gullible people like you.
 

soulsurvivor

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I am a hands on science for over fifty years in the field of geology, and your clinging to the delusion of the miraculous is appalling and overwhelming intentional ignorance of science and reality.

You are blindly persistently ignoring the simple natural explanation as reference in many sources cited in the reference for a simple natural explanation for this intentional hoax to manipulate gullible people like you.
'Hands-on' but never actually performs an experiment? If you don't have a block of porous wood to experiment with, maybe you can use a porous rock? At least attempt to reproduce what you claim to be true. You need the object and a spoon of milk. That is all the material you need. Perform the experiment sincerely and tell us the results like a real scientist. Please describe the object, its size, shape and material and how much milk was absorbed. Should be quite painless and easy. Just a lot of talk is not scientific.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Nakosis. Have you read the Bible?
How does simply reading the Bible answer the questions presented?

Literally billions of people have read the Bible and there is consensus as to beliefs resulting from reading. The result is many churches, rejectionof science by many, violence against those that so not believe, and tribal wars over the Millennia.

The Bible is a compilation of ancient historical narratives without provenance and documented authorship.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
'Hands-on' but never actually performs an experiment? If you don't have a block of porous wood to experiment with, maybe you can use a porous rock? At least attempt to reproduce what you claim to be true. You need the object and a spoon of milk. That is all the material you need. Perform the experiment sincerely and tell us the results like a real scientist. Please describe the object, its size, shape and material and how much milk was absorbed. Should be quite painless and easy. Just a lot of talk is not scientific.
I am a hands on science for over fifty years in the field of geology, and your clinging to the delusion of the miraculous is appalling and overwhelming intentional ignorance of science and reality.

You are blindly persistently ignoring the simple natural explanation as reference in many sources cited in the reference for a simple natural explanation for this intentional hoax to manipulate gullible people like you.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
'Hands-on' but never actually performs an experiment? If you don't have a block of porous wood to experiment with, maybe you can use a porous rock? At least attempt to reproduce what you claim to be true. You need the object and a spoon of milk. That is all the material you need. Perform the experiment sincerely and tell us the results like a real scientist. Please describe the object, its size, shape and material and how much milk was absorbed. Should be quite painless and easy. Just a lot of talk is not scientific.

I've never seen so much resistance to performing a simple experiment before by someone claiming to be a scientist. Such a person, in my experience, is more than eager to prove themselves to others who doubt their word. I've met a lot of skeptics like this in my years as a paranormal investigator. In my experience, what they generally want to do is prove those wrong who disagree with them or believe differently than them. IMO, this resistance is unusual.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Do you get to decide for yourself what is evidence and what conclusion that evidence supports?

Or is there a standard that something must surpass to be considered evidence and a methodology to showing how the evidence necessarily supports the conclusion being claimed by it.

For example, is the Bible evidence of the existence of God?
Is the Bible evidence because I say it is evidence? Or is the Bible evidence because surpasses a standard of evidence necessary to be considered evidence.

And, if we except the latter, is it evidence of God's existence because I say it is or because I have methodically show that it necessarily leads to that conclusion?

Bonus question: If you think there is a standard that must be surpassed for something to be considered evidence, what is it and does the Bible meet that?
Evidence is like the raw material that is processed by our critical thinking and reasoning skills, allowing us to reach conclusions. The problem is the less evidence you have, the harder it is to converge your reasoning to a single steady state conclusion. The Bible has more than one piece of evidence from Prophets and history, over thousands of years, helping to converge the conclusions of the faithful.

As an example of not enough evidence to converge to one conclusion, even with the best logic; say we met a new person at a restaurant and they are eating. It was a blind introduction date. Seeing them eating is a piece of sound evidence, so what can you conclude from this one piece of evidence? We know they did not wait for us to eat. Maybe they have an eating disorder. Maybe they were so hungry they could not wait. Or maybe the food is so good that explains why they could not wait and now eat so fast. Or maybe they do not have much time and are trying to multitask lunch and this introduction blind date. That evidence is not enough to converge to any one conclusion. We need more evidence to narrow these options down, to one conclusion than can combine all the evidence, and make it hard or impossible to diverge.

Manmade climate change has never before happened on the earth. Science did not start keeping records until about 1880 and few if any even notice or considered this possibility of man made global warming until a few decade ago. It surprised me how some were able to draw such a dogmatic conclusion with one occurrence of a phenomena that has not even finished one cycle, while never happening before.

We have a lot more evidence of the earth naturally causing climate change over the past billion years. We are still warming from the last Ice Age. The glaciers have been melting for some time. This bulk of natural evidence makes it easier to converge to the conclusion the earth can and has caused climate change. But we are supposed to ignore all that natural evidence, in favor of a conclusion that came from the first occurrence of a postulated global man made phenomena.

Less evidence opens the door to fantasy and money making scams being sold as science. This is made easier, if you can make it harder for others to use any convergent conclusions based on large evidence sources. Those deniers of the first occurrence of evidence, need to be dealt with if they show all that natural evidence. Minimal evidence can be twisted, with the natural divergence, scammed into a fake convergence, with political games.

Remember the Russian Collusion Scam. There was minimal circumstantial evidence but a very bold dogmatic conclusion, reinforced by a large propaganda team. The same team is in charge of this first occurrence evidence of a man made theory that moves a lot of tax payer money to allies in the Private sector. The international community also has it hands outs, with skim along the way.
 

soulsurvivor

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I am a hands on science for over fifty years in the field of geology, and your clinging to the delusion of the miraculous is appalling and overwhelming intentional ignorance of science and reality.

You are blindly persistently ignoring the simple natural explanation as reference in many sources cited in the reference for a simple natural explanation for this intentional hoax to manipulate gullible people like you.
'Hands on' but refuse to actually use your hands? Just want to provide verbal 'explanations' and claims without even trying to substantiate them?

Use any object at home and stick a spoon full of milk to it, just as shown in the videos. If you don't have a block of porous wood to experiment with, maybe you can use one of your geological porous rocks? At least attempt to reproduce what you claim to be true. You just need the object and a spoon of milk. That is all the material you need. Perform the experiment sincerely and tell us the results like a real scientist. Please describe the object, its size, shape and material and how much milk was absorbed. Should be a piece of cake if you are a real scientist.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I've never seen so much resistance to performing a simple experiment before by someone claiming to be a scientist. Such a person, in my experience, is more than eager to prove themselves to others who doubt their word. I've met a lot of skeptics like this in my years as a paranormal investigator. In my experience, what they generally want to do is prove those wrong who disagree with them or believe differently than them. IMO, this resistance is unusual.
Do you call people "skeptics" if they
see the nonsense in homeopathy, astrology,
Atlantis, chupacabra...?

In my observation, woo woo believers don't know where to stop.

See "gullible".
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Do you get to decide for yourself what is evidence and what conclusion that evidence supports?

Or is there a standard that something must surpass to be considered evidence and a methodology to showing how the evidence necessarily supports the conclusion being claimed by it.

For example, is the Bible evidence of the existence of God?
Is the Bible evidence because I say it is evidence? Or is the Bible evidence because surpasses a standard of evidence necessary to be considered evidence.

And, if we except the latter, is it evidence of God's existence because I say it is or because I have methodically show that it necessarily leads to that conclusion?

Bonus question: If you think there is a standard that must be surpassed for something to be considered evidence, what is it and does the Bible meet that?
Evidence is different to varying epistemologies. What should be considered is conflict. For example, empiricism cannot get into the subject of God. It's an absurdity. That was an example.

But your question about the Bible, yet it could be considered evidence for God but if someone makes that claim, they have to first give a yard stick or a measuring methodology to confirm it is God's word. But if they do provide a methodology, a year stick and that yard stick is reasonable and objective, and they provide the evidence the Bible fit's the yard stick, it could be evidence for God. In principle.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Evidence is different to varying epistemologies. What should be considered is conflict. For example, empiricism cannot get into the subject of God. It's an absurdity. That was an example.

But your question about the Bible, yet it could be considered evidence for God but if someone makes that claim, they have to first give a yard stick or a measuring methodology to confirm it is God's word. But if they do provide a methodology, a year stick and that yard stick is reasonable and objective, and they provide the evidence the Bible fit's the yard stick, it could be evidence for God. In principle.

Yeah, in princible. But it matters nothing if it is not doing in practice, because in principle is not the same evidence as in practice.

And no, I am not saying there is or isn't a God, I don't know that one way or another.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Yeah, in princible. But it matters nothing if it is not doing in practice, because in principle is not the same evidence as in practice.

And no, I am not saying there is or isn't a God, I don't know that one way or another.
One possible class of evidence for God are called miracles. These are things that happen in reality, that science cannot explain, using its knowledge base, even with this evidence in physical reality; spontaneous cancer cure.

Miracles, and the limits of science, brings up the possibility that maybe science is not advance enough to explain God and therefore cannot yet do the correct experiments that can make use of even the miracle evidence.

If we brought a cell phone back into time so say the Salem Witch Trials era, that device could get you burnt at the stake as a witch. They did not have the conceptual foundation to understand how such a device could work. That would spook them and they would try to destroy it and you, due to fear and an irrational mischaracterization inside them; fight or flight. God is outside known science and is a witch that must be destroyed.

Faith is about the inner reality that goes into inside each person hidden from others. It is also hidden from science investigations, that can only work on the surface of things. If I am sitting quietly and I am not talking, it is not be clear what is on mind, since there is no discernible output for external science to infer from. There no output sound or body language for clues. That hidden evidence could be the evidence you need, but it is not out there for you, if you are limited by the external third person philosophy of science.

In war time, prisoners may be interrogated with drugs and even tortured to get hidden information the prisoner will not reveal and the enemy cannot know, via the third person. At times, there are Psychics who can extract this information through a type of blue tooth connection. But not all have that skill but rather are more limited to superficial data that can be gamed from the inside out; magic trick.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
One possible class of evidence for God are called miracles. These are things that happen in reality, that science cannot explain, using its knowledge base, even with this evidence in physical reality; spontaneous cancer cure.

Miracles, and the limits of science, brings up the possibility that maybe science is not advance enough to explain God and therefore cannot yet do the correct experiments that can make use of even the miracle evidence.

If we brought a cell phone back into time so say the Salem Witch Trials era, that device could get you burnt at the stake as a witch. They did not have the conceptual foundation to understand how such a device could work. That would spook them and they would try to destroy it and you, due to fear and an irrational mischaracterization inside them; fight or flight. God is outside known science and is a witch that must be destroyed.

Faith is about the inner reality that goes into inside each person hidden from others. It is also hidden from science investigations, that can only work on the surface of things. If I am sitting quietly and I am not talking, it is not be clear what is on mind, since there is no discernible output for external science to infer from. There no output sound or body language for clues. That hidden evidence could be the evidence you need, but it is not out there for you, if you are limited by the external third person philosophy of science.

In war time, prisoners may be interrogated with drugs and even tortured to get hidden information the prisoner will not reveal and the enemy cannot know, via the third person. At times, there are Psychics who can extract this information through a type of blue tooth connection. But not all have that skill but rather are more limited to superficial data that can be gamed; magic trick.

And on ignore you go for now. Make of it what you want.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I've never seen so much resistance to performing a simple experiment before by someone claiming to be a scientist. Such a person, in my experience, is more than eager to prove themselves to others who doubt their word. I've met a lot of skeptics like this in my years as a paranormal investigator. In my experience, what they generally want to do is prove those wrong who disagree with them or believe differently than them. IMO, this resistance is unusual.
I perform the experiment all the time when I have to deal with porous wood, and ceramics absorbing liquids as a crpenter repairing firniture and repairing broken ceramic. , As I mentioned a simple small hole drilled deep when all else fails does the trick. A very simple phenomenon is a lousy basis fo claiming a miracle,. There are far more sophisticated hoaxes have been tried and failed than this.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
One possible class of evidence for God are called miracles. These are things that happen in reality, that science cannot explain, using its knowledge base, even with this evidence in physical reality; spontaneous cancer cure.

Spontaneous cancer cure has been demonstrated to occur naturally based on the individuals immune system.


Spontaneous remission of cancer occurs when cancer shrinks or disappears without curative treatment. It does not include cancer regression after therapies like chemotherapy or surgery. Spontaneous cancer remission is also quite rare. Only 12–24 cases appear in medical literature each year.

You cannot objectively differentiate the claim of miraculous healing from natural spontaneous remission of cancer.

Miracles, and the limits of science, brings up the possibility that maybe science is not advance enough to explain God and therefore cannot yet do the correct experiments that can make use of even the miracle evidence.
The limits of science is the limit of being able to determine the validity of claim of the miraculous,

The next word in the dictionary after miracle is mirage,
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Evidence is different to varying epistemologies. What should be considered is conflict. For example, empiricism cannot get into the subject of God. It's an absurdity. That was an example.
That is why there is no objective evidence for the existence of Gods
But your question about the Bible, yet it could be considered evidence for God but if someone makes that claim,
No, many believe in one of the many various conflicting claims for the existence of God or Gods, but the claims remain variable and without objective evidence,
they have to first give a yard stick or a measuring methodology to confirm it is God's word. But if they do provide a methodology, a year stick and that yard stick is reasonable and objective, and they provide the evidence the Bible fit's the yard stick, it could be evidence for God. In principle.

Such claims based on ancient scripture form any one of the many conflicting religions cannot be reasonable and objective evidence by definition, Look up how objective and subjective are defined in the English language,

Your yard stick does not have any numbers on it and remains a subjective claim even in conflict with those who believe in Gods different from you.
 
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Hawkins

Well-Known Member
You dont speak for others.


If you rely on emotions to get you to
" truths", so much the worse for you.

For one, said " truths" will not be found.

For the other, basing actions / beliefs on
how you just happen to feel is self
indulgence, which I hold to be the root of all evil.

I never spoke for others. I simply list simple facts. Which part of my speech made you think that I speak for others, please point it out.

Thanks.
 
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