What is Faith?

[lunamoth]

While the last three understandings of faith outlined by Borg play the larger role in our everyday lives, the role of assensus, giving our intellectual assent to, something, is also part of our faith. Borg goes on to say that, for Christians, the three foundational affirmations are the reality of God, the centrality of Jesus, and the centrality of the Bible.

Can these three foundations be affirmed in a reasonable way?

 

[Magic Man]

I'm glad you have faith in your definition.

 

[Magic Man]

I agree. He seems to go strictly with faith as assensus, intellectual assent, although no one has selected that choice yet in the poll.

The idea of choosing which definition of a word you most identify with is fallacious. I could say "I most identify with the definition of buck that says 'a male deer' so that even when I have conversations about money, and people are using the word to mean something else, I just pretend all the definitions are the same". The fact is faith has several different meanings. Each one is a separate word for separate situations. When you talk about faith in God, it means "belief without evidence", and it's not the same thing as faith in your family.

 

[lunamoth]

The idea of choosing which definition of a word you most identify with is fallacious. I could say "I most identify with the definition of buck that says 'a male deer' so that even when I have conversations about money, and people are using the word to mean something else, I just pretend all the definitions are the same". The fact is faith has several different meanings. Each one is a separate word for separate situations. When you talk about faith in God, it means "belief without evidence", and it's not the same thing as faith in your family.

With all due respect, you are doing precisely what you are complaining about. On the one hand you acknowledge that there are many meanings of faith, but then you say that the only one that can be valid is the one you identify with.

Your view is very biased, which is fine if you are only speaking for yourself. But, you can't then say what faith must mean for everyone else, and everyone else but you is wrong.

Thanks for playing.

 

[Magic Man]

With all due respect, you are doing precisely what you are complaining about. On the one hand you acknowledge that there are many meanings of faith, but then you say that the only one that can be valid is the one you identify with.

Your view is very biased, which is fine if you are only speaking for yourself. But, you can't then say what faith must mean for everyone else, and everyone else but you is wrong.

Thanks for playing.

Yeah, actually it does have to do with bias, but not mine. That's the problem. People who think faith is a good thing want to keep thinking that, so they use all of the different definitions as if they're all one single word, so that it sounds like their faith is actually a good thing.

I'm not trying to tell people what faith must mean. I'm trying to tell you what it does mean in a certain context. I mean, hell, you can go around using "car" to mean "flying elephant". Should I not try to explain to you that that word doesn't mean that?

The simple fact is when talking about faith in God, what is meant is "belief without evidence". I understand that you and others don't want to admit that. I understand that you'd rather carry on believing it means "trust and confidence" because it's supposedly the same thing as having faith in your friends. I understand that you like your poetic definitions that are ultimately meaningless, other than to help you keep pretending that faith in that sense is a good thing. I understand that I'm not going to get through to you. I just feel I have to try.

So, thanks for playing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

4. Faith as Visio - worldview; how we see the whole. Borg offers that we can choose among three ways to see the whole of our existence in the universe. First, see reality as hostile or threatening (can be expressed by the view held by some Christians that God is going to judge and punish us if we don't get it 'right.'). Second, to perceive the whole as indifferent to human purposes and ends (most common secular viewpoint; can be accompanied by the strong aesthetic of caring deeply for one's world and humanity). Third, to view 'what is' as life-giving and nourishing; expressed sometimes as trust in God's providence. Generates a willingness to 'spend and be spent;' for the sake of a vision that goes beyond ourselves. It is not based on a demonstration that reality is nice; rather it is the point that how we see reality affects how we experience and live our lives.

Wait... so if we don't assume that all of reality is either there to help us or out to get us, this is "faith"?

Number 4 is not a definition of faith I've ever encountered before.

 

[Willamena]

While the last three understandings of faith outlined by Borg play the larger role in our everyday lives, the role of assensus, giving our intellectual assent to, something, is also part of our faith. Borg goes on to say that, for Christians, the three foundational affirmations are the reality of God, the centrality of Jesus, and the centrality of the Bible.

Can these three foundations be affirmed in a reasonable way?

Is it possible to have faith without having given intellectual assent, though --this is the thing. I would say not, because assent, rather than being a part of faith, is belief of which faith is a part. As I understand these terms.

It may seem a small difference, but to me it seems... precise.

I'll forego the second question.

 

[lunamoth]

Is it possible to have faith without having given intellectual assent, though --this is the thing. I would say not, because assent, rather than being a part of faith, is belief of which faith is a part. As I understand these terms.

It may seem a small difference, but to me it seems... precise.

Belief is an aspect of faith. The point Borg is making, though, is that it is not all that faith is, and maybe not the most important part.

For me, I think it is important that head and heart agree, so the aspect of what I believe is important.

I'll explore more of what Borg has to say about the three affirmations in later posts (as long as I have time for, anyway).

 

[lunamoth]

Wait... so if we don't assume that all of reality is either there to help us or out to get us, this is "faith"?

Number 4 is not a definition of faith I've ever encountered before.

I don't think that is what point 4 is saying. I think Borg was pointing out that our chosen faith is also the window through which we view the world. Faith in God is one such worldview. Faith in a loving God of Providence is a specific form of such a worldview. Atheistic humanism would be another worldview. I would say there are many others.

 

[sandandfoam]

For me, I think it is important that head and heart agree, so the aspect of what I believe is important.

I find my head generally lags some distance behind my heart. The occasions when the two meet make quite an impact on me.

 

[lunamoth]

I find my head generally lags some distance behind my heart. The occasions when the two meet make quite an impact on me.

Thanks, Stephen. BTW, I love your title.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't think that is what point 4 is saying. I think Borg was pointing out that our chosen faith is also the window through which we view the world. Faith in God is one such worldview. Faith in a loving God of Providence is a specific form of such a worldview. Atheistic humanism would be another worldview. I would say there are many others.

Hmm. If the idea is that faith can pervade a person's worldview, I suppose I agree. If he's saying that all worldviews are forms of faith, then I probably don't.

 

[Greygon]

OK, but that's how it's used, as I showed.

Actually, you did not show it, you only stated it. You provided no basis (evidence if you will) for why your statement had any factual basis.

Then you must have a very different experience from mine and many others on here. That's generally the use of the word.

Since you provided no basis to judge your statement, then how could anyone know to what in your experiences to base the statement upon?

Of course, I'm probably just going to have to give up. I've said what needs to be said, but I also understand that people are going to continue to equivocate mainly because they like their faith.

Perhaps you are right. You made a statement with no support, then expected us to have "faith" in your statement, sans evidence. Therefor, we are left to conclude that you most desire a faith without evidence.

However, I don't know of any religion, certainly not my own beliefs which would be "without evidence". To which belief system are you referring to which lacks all evidence?

 

[Greygon]

The simple fact is when talking about faith in God, what is meant is "belief without evidence".

What is your working definition of evidence here? Your statement as quoted is fallacious.

 

[Pegg]

It depends. There are several definitions of faith. Generally when speaking of faith in God, the definition is "belief without evidence".

the Apostle Paul explained faith in opposite terms

Its trust based on evidence. Hebrews 11 discusses people of faith and how their faith worked and why they had faith. He says nothing about belief without evidence.

 

[darkendless]

Faith: A persons ability to forsake reason, logic and common sense in favour of something comforting and conceptually less mentally strenuous.

 

[Walkntune]

Faith: A persons ability to forsake reason, logic and common sense in favour of something comforting and conceptually less mentally strenuous.

Not forsaken reason, just relying on the reasoning on the right side of the brain instead of the left.
Remember common sense tells us the earth is flat. Einstein

A wise/skillful/intelligent man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. (Ecc 10:2)

 

[darkendless]

Not forsaken reason, just relying on the reasoning on the right side of the brain instead of the left.
Remember common sense tells us the earth is flat. Einstein

A wise/skillful/intelligent man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. (Ecc 10:2)

Faith is like extrapolating data. You don't know, you can only make self-reasoned guesses. Convincing yourself that something is right doesn't count.

Common sense would lead us away from believing in something like God.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Then you must have a very different experience from mine and many others on here. That's generally the use of the word.

'Generally the use of the word' or 'Generally what we think people mean when they use the word'?

I understand what you mean, however. A lot of people make faith mean something it doesn't have to mean, i.e. literal translations and interpretations. I don't even think the people who wrote the Bible took it literally. It was understood to be a story, based in fact or not, a story nonetheless. And because you've only seen this definition, you don't know there is another definition.
Show a person a rotten apple enough times, and they'll assume that the rotten apple is in fact the apple.

 

[Willamena]

"Faith is the bird that sings when the dawn is still dark." ~Rabindranath Tagore