What is Faith?

[Magic Man]

Apparently it was meaningful to Bonhoeffer.

The question is why. I submit the answer that he liked the way it sounds and likes that it supports his already-existing appreciation for faith. I don't think it really matters whether it truly means anything or whether it's at all truthful. I think the main concern is that it sounds good and supports the concept of faith in the religious sense.

 

[blackout]

Simply being (quiet, non'judge'mental observation),
playing (with no particular reason), connecting dots, crafting, meditating,
dancing, improvising (following stream of consciousness)....

these are all TRUE experiences of life.

Do'ing and Be'ing are knowledge of Self and World, no less than Think'ing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You disagree with the idea that living unreservedly implies faith in God for you, but living unreservedly was faith for Bonhoeffer. There is no expectation that you need to adopt his view. Isn't this reasonable?

So the "we" he frequently refers to is the "royal we"?

The words "for me" don't appear anywhere in the passage you quoted. He's structured his argument as conclusions drawn from an assessment of apparent facts:

By this-worldliness I mean living unreservedly in life's duties, problems, successes and failures. In so doing we throw ourselves completely into the arms of God, taking seriously, not our own sufferings, but those of God in the world.

This could be re-worded as saying "living unreservedly necessarily implies trusting one's life to God." It relies entirely on general statements, so the only way it can be true in any sense is if it's true generally. IOW, it can't be "true for Bonhoffer" unless it's true for everyone.

OTOH, something that is true generally is true for every specific case it applies to, so if it's not true for me, then it's not true generally.

This brings us to a contradiction unless we modify the statement so that it's worded in subjective terms... but this would be a change from how you originally presented it to us.

Of course your view is welcome. What is faith for you, 9/10ths?

As I said earlier in the thread, I'd say that the term "faith" properly applies to intellectual assent, trust and loyalty, however, I think that they're all distinct concepts, and there's a tendency by some people to falsely equivocate between them.

 

[Meow Mix]

Apparently it was meaningful to Bonhoeffer.

Oh I agree it's meaningful -- I get what Bonhoeffer is saying when he says it. I'm just splitting hairs when I say I question the utility. Bonhoeffer's language is at least understandable and imparts meaning, and that's the bare necessity of language -- so he's doing just fine.

 

[Meow Mix]

As I said earlier in the thread, I'd say that the term "faith" properly applies to intellectual assent, trust and loyalty, however, I think that they're all distinct concepts, and there's a tendency by some people to falsely equivocate between them.

This is true and the crux of some of our objections here. "Faith" is a meaningful word in all of its contexts that I've seen here, but those contexts are all distinct and some make the mistake of blurring them together. That becomes a serious problem.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

This is true and the crux of some of our objections here. "Faith" is a meaningful word in all of its contexts that I've seen here, but those contexts are all distinct and some make the mistake of blurring them together. That becomes a serious problem.

It's not a problem for those for whom clarity isn't particularly important.

 

[Meow Mix]

It's not a problem for those for whom clarity isn't particularly important.

Are you telling me my shoes are untied?

 

[lunamoth]

So the "we" he frequently refers to is the "royal we"?

I think he was addressing other Christians when he wrote this.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Are you telling me my shoes are untied?

Your shoes being untied, implies that they were once tied. If your shoes were tied, did they go into overtime?

 

[Magic Man]

Your shoes being untied, implies that they were once tied. If your shoes were tied, did they go into overtime?

Why would the go into overtime? If they weren't tied, they would just read the label and start happening.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think he was addressing other Christians when he wrote this.

And is it true for Christians generally?

What do you think about the other point I made... i.e. that if he uses generalistic statements in his position, then it's either generally true or generally false? The way he's structured his argument, I don't think the "it's true for him and false for me" approach works here.

 

[Meow Mix]

Your shoes being untied, implies that they were once tied. If your shoes were tied, did they go into overtime?

I think so, Brain. Can you fit an entire cow in there?

[youtube]qg6OTTbKsmQ[/youtube]
YouTube - Are You Pondering What I'm Pondering

 

[lunamoth]

And is it true for Christians generally?

What do you think about the other point I made... i.e. that if he uses generalistic statements in his position, then it's either generally true or generally false? The way he's structured his argument, I don't think the "it's true for him and false for me" approach works here.

I think he was stating his understanding and inviting other Christians to consider his POV. I don't think he was trying to speak for all Christians, or insist that all Christians must see it the same way.

I respect you 9/10ths, but I think you are reading too much into it if you feel that Bonhoeffer's wording is making undue claims for others.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I think so, Brain. Can you fit an entire cow in there?

I think so, Brain, but how will we get the Spice Girls into the paella?

 

[Meow Mix]

I think so, Brain, but how will we get the Spice Girls into the paella?

LOL. Ok, I'll stop spamming the thread now. I was trying to make it as if I had redefined all your words to mean something completely different with the intention of showing how it breaks down communication, but then it just got silly.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

LOL. Ok, I'll stop spamming the thread now. I was trying to make it as if I had redefined all your words to mean something completely different with the intention of showing how it breaks down communication, but then it just got silly.

So you're not going to tell me how to get the Spice Girls into the paella?

Thanks for nothing.

 

[starlite]

The Bible's definition is found at Hebrews 11:1 "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld". NWT

The one who has faith is convinced by this evident demonstration, and for this reason he does not have to see the realities themselves. He therefore acts in harmony with the existence of those realities, although he has not yet seen them. Nevertheless, he is not acting blindly, because by his mental perception and heart appreciation he has an evident demonstration that proves to him the actuality of the real things that have not been beheld by him.

 

[TheQueenCat]

Visio - Worldview

 

[Willamena]

It's true that reason is the only method of approaching truth and knowledge.

Without truth and knowledge, there is no capacity for reason.

 

[Willamena]

This could be re-worded as saying "living unreservedly necessarily implies trusting one's life to God." It relies entirely on general statements, so the only way it can be true in any sense is if it's true generally. IOW, it can't be "true for Bonhoffer" unless it's true for everyone.

Yes, it could be taken that way, if you ignore his claim of "By this I mean..."