What is Faith?

[Meow Mix]

If you think that's what I mean, then you didn't get my point.

If you and I start with the same premises and end up at different conclusions, then we know that at least one of us is wrong. This doesn't imply that I'm right and you're wrong; it could be the other way around. Heck - we could both be wrong... but we couldn't both be right.

If there is one reality then two people can't have conflicting beliefs and both be right. Both may be wrong, but chances are one might be closer than the other and thus applying reason a little better.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If there is one reality then two people can't have conflicting beliefs and both be right. Both may be wrong, but chances are one might be closer than the other and thus applying reason a little better.

Wait a minute. Are you saying that reason is a tool - and like any other tool, some people are better able to correctly and effectively use that tool? This seems dangerously close to saying that everyone isn't equally rational. You're not suggesting such a horrid thing, are you?

 

[Meow Mix]

Wait a minute. Are you saying that reason is a tool - and like any other tool, some people are better able to correctly and effectively use that tool? This seems dangerously close to saying that everyone isn't equally rational. You're not suggesting such a horrid thing, are you?

Reason isn't just a tool, it's the toolbox for discerning truth. Contrary to certain claims that there are methods other than reason for discerning truth and gaining knowledge.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Reason isn't just a tool, it's the toolbox for discerning truth. Contrary to certain claims that there are methods other than reason for discerning truth and gaining knowledge.

Hehe - you said "box."

 

[Willamena]

If you think that's what I mean, then you didn't get my point.

If you and I start with the same premises and end up at different conclusions, then we know that at least one of us is wrong. This doesn't imply that I'm right and you're wrong; it could be the other way around. Heck - we could both be wrong... but we couldn't both be right.

That's the point I got. It's also blatently false: human imagination is a bit more versatile than that, and the world is far less black and white than that.

 

[Willamena]

Contrary to certain claims that there are methods other than reason for discerning truth and gaining knowledge.

Hey, don't take our word for it.

Knowledge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"acquired ... through experience or education"; learned "facts and information"; "awareness or familiarity"; involving "complex cognitive processes: perception, learning, communication, association and reasoning."

 

[Magic Man]

That's the point I got. It's also blatently false...

Yes, we understand that you don't understand what's being said. I hope Penguin has the patience to try to explain it to you better, so that you don't continue under this false notion that it's blatantly false.

 

[Meow Mix]

Hey, don't take our word for it.

Knowledge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"acquired ... through experience or education"; learned "facts and information"; "awareness or familiarity"; involving "complex cognitive processes: perception, learning, communication, association and reasoning."

That's a layman's definition. This is sort of like if I were talking about scientific theory and you quoted the layman's definition, which is closer to "guess."

The fact is that reason is the only method to acquire knowledge.

 

[blackout]

Hey, don't take our word for it.

Knowledge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"acquired ... through experience or education"; learned "facts and information"; "awareness or familiarity"; involving "complex cognitive processes: perception, learning, communication, association and reasoning."

Everybody likes their own definitions best.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Reason isn't just a tool, it's the toolbox for discerning truth. Contrary to certain claims that there are methods other than reason for discerning truth and gaining knowledge.

Gnosis, art, empathy etc...

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

The fact is that reason is the only method to acquire knowledge.

Nonsense.

 

[Willamena]

Everybody likes their own definitions best.

By definition.

 

[Willamena]

That's a layman's definition. This is sort of like if I were talking about scientific theory and you quoted the layman's definition, which is closer to "guess."

The fact is that reason is the only method to acquire knowledge.

Ah... you mean, like that layman's definition of "faith" that has it without evidence.

 

[Meow Mix]

Gnosis, art, empathy etc...

What, specifically, do you mean by gnosis?

Art doesn't lead to knowledge per se (unless there's something to reason from it) but rather aesthetic: qualia.

I'm unsure why empathy is claimed to lead to knowledge, can you give a specific example? It may be reason in disguise.

"Why are you crying? Is it because of X?" <-- rational inquiry

 

[Meow Mix]

Ah... you mean, like that layman's definition of "faith" that has it without evidence.

Many, many, many theists use that definition and equivocate it with other more reasonable contexts of faith. It's a very relevant context to combat when discussing the matter.

 

[Magic Man]

Nonsense.

What a wonderful answer.

 

[Magic Man]

Many, many, many theists use that definition and equivocate it with other more reasonable contexts of faith. It's a very relevant context to combat when discussing the matter.

Indeed they do. We had one use it just recently in another thread.

But the whole point in religion is about faith/non-proof. I find it a highly respectable theory if you believe in a religion and want to understand how the universe was made in a scientific theory.

Of course, it's also not possible to have trust or confidence in a being you don't know exists like you do with actual human beings, so having faith in God can only really come down to believing without evidence, which is why theists use it that way. The problem is the equivocation after using it that way.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Gnosis, art, empathy etc...

Those sound like great sources of new ideas, but to figure out whether those ideas are factually true, you still need to subject them to logical reasoning.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's the point I got. It's also blatently false: human imagination is a bit more versatile than that, and the world is far less black and white than that.

Could you provide an example?

 

[blackout]

What, specifically, do you mean by gnosis?

Art doesn't lead to knowledge per se (unless there's something to reason from it) but rather aesthetic: qualia.

I'm unsure why empathy is claimed to lead to knowledge, can you give a specific example? It may be reason in disguise.

"Why are you crying? Is it because of X?" <-- rational inquiry

Those sound like great sources of new ideas, but to figure out whether those ideas are factually true, you still need to subject them to logical reasoning.

Art can most definitely bring to light Knowledge and Truth of Self foremost,
and in'sight into almost any other topic of life besides.
(particularly relational truths)

Note: Subjective truths are truths in relation to the Subject "I've".

EDIT: and "gnosis" is sudden knowing.
(even before any logical reasoning is applied)