What is imperfect ?

[Willamena]

No amount of wordplay or questions is going to help I'm afraid. You clearly stated that it is not possible for God to be perfect if He can't be measured up against anything.

No, I essentially stated that if God is perfect, God is qualified, because there are things that are imperfect, and so we have measured God up against something. I do allow that God can be perfect (and qualified), because every time we address a "God is..." statement we are addressing an image of God rather than God. We address God in terms of Maya, the play of opposites (in this case, opposing terms).

There is no perfect without imperfect, and vice versa.

I responded that God could be perfect in absolute terms, thus disqualifying the need to measure Him against anything. Now, responding with a barrage of questions and assumptions isn't an argument, especially when it's as incoherent as that. I think you need time out to review what the word "absolute" means and how I've used it in this context.

"Absolute terms" is not exempt from an opposite if you allow for "relative terms." You have already measured God with it, once you've used it as an adjective.

 

[sunni56]

No, I essentially stated that if God is perfect, God is qualified, because there are things that are imperfect, and so we have measured God up against something. I do allow that God can be perfect (and qualified), because every time we address a "God is..." statement we are addressing an image of God rather than God. We address God in terms of Maya, the play of opposites (in this case, opposing terms).

There is no perfect without imperfect, and vice versa.


"Absolute terms" is not exempt from an opposite if you allow for "relative terms." You have already measured God with it, once you've used it as an adjective.

You're talking rubbish. Like I said before, it is perfectly acceptable to say that God is perfect in absolute terms, there is no need to contrast him with anything if He is perfect in absolute terms. Your initially statements are incorrect. Saying that imperfect things exist and then trying to use that as an argument is not only a strawman, but also a pitiful and an invalid excuse for your initial statements;

1. Rejection of God's perfection in absence of comparisons with him.
2. Continued insistence that God cannot be perfect in absolute terms.

 

[chinu]

I have no reason whatsoever to believe that I have a soul. And since you are suggesting all this is an illusion - that what we can see and hear and touch and smell and taste is not real - you have even LESS ability to claim the existence of a soul (which cannot be sensed - though even were we able to SEE souls according to you that would be an illusion).

I used my mind, my consciousness, now it is true that in science we are not exactly sure how consciousness arises. That is a very valid criticism. However, there is NOTHING which suggests that it arises from some other dimension. Instead, it is clearly linked in some way that we do not fully comprehend to the brain; if your brain gets damaged your consciousness and cognitive capacities can become impaired.

I should point out that I have a condition where I do not feel pain as well I ought (for example I may not realize I have cut my arm or burned my fingers until quite a bit later when I would then feel pain), as a result, unless I DO pay attention to my body I can get quite significantly injured. I in no way ignored my body, I concentrated on the signals my nervous system relayed to me from other parts of my body, the sensations of pain and discomfort and friction and all that sort of thing - to identify when (for example) my back was in a very bad way and that were I to continue as I had been then I would have hurt myself immensely.

If I had ignored my body for a second, I would likely have spent several weeks in bed recovering from the ordeal of screwing up my back.

InformedIgnorance, actually you didn't got my point, Actually, my point is that its impossible to do anything before thinking, either it is any treatment or it is any type of work.

For example: One is trying to solve any difficult sum and not getting way out.
Now, what does one do to find the solution to that sum ?
One starts thinking, and when one starts thinking,concentration (concentration of soul/consciousness) automatically starts concentrating between the eye centre, and leaving the body when consciousness/soul get fully concentrated between the eye centre one gets the solution to that sum.

As you said >>> I concentrated on the signals my nervous system relayed to me from other parts of my body <<<

If you were concentrating on the signals that your nervous system relayed to you from the others parts of your body, it means your concentrated consciousness was busy in reciving those signals, Than who was watching all this ? how can you concentrate on two subjects at a time ?

Subject 1: Reciving the signals from other parts of you body.
Subject 2: Watching yourself reciving the signals from other parts of your body.

Concentrated is said to concentrated, and when one is fully concentrated on one subject it means one cannot know about other subject.

I hope you may get my point.

 

[chinu]

Imperfection is "flesh". "The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" is a biblical quote. We say things such as "I'd love to finish what I was doing but I am tired". "I wish I could stop eating that cheese cake, but it is so darned good". "I wish I didn't want to do this or that but it feels so good". "I wish I didn't feel a need to do this, but I am so bored". (Just being a bit facetious).

Individally flesh is not imperfect,
But yes, flesh is imperfect for spirit

God didn't created any imperfect thing,
But yes, we collected the things which were imperfect for us.

Individually fire is not imperfect,
Individually water is also not imperfect,
But yes, they are imperfect for each other.
Similarly, we people also don't know what is perfect for us.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Now, what does one do to find the solution to that sum ?
One starts thinking, and when one starts thinking,concentration (concentration of soul/consciousness) automatically starts concentrating between the eye centre, and leaving the body when consciousness/soul get fully concentrated between the eye centre one gets the solution to that sum.

We do not leave our body when we think; our mind is a construct of our brain entirely within our bodies; to think of something is not to leave the body but simply to more strenuously use a single part of that body our brain.

If you were concentrating on the signals that your nervous system relayed to you from the others parts of your body, it means your concentrated consciousness was busy in reciving those signals, Than who was watching all this ? how can you concentrate on two subjects at a time ?

Subject 1: Reciving the signals from other parts of you body.
Subject 2: Watching yourself reciving the signals from other parts of your body.

Concentrated is said to concentrated, and when one is fully concentrated on one subject it means one cannot know about other subject.

It is quite common to concentrate on more than one thing at a time, multi-tasking is an essential skill whether at work or looking after a home etc; all you have to do is not direct the entirety your attention to just one thing. Instead you devote a significant amount of concentration on one thing (or a limited number of things) and a lesser degree of concentration on others - some people are particularly good at this skill (I am not very good at it to be honest but even I can concentrate on more than one thing at a time)

 

[chinu]

We do not leave our body when we think; our mind is a construct of our brain entirely within our bodies; to think of something is not to leave the body but simply to more strenuously use a single part of that body our brain.

It is quite common to concentrate on more than one thing at a time, multi-tasking is an essential skill whether at work or looking after a home etc; all you have to do is not direct the entirety your attention to just one thing. Instead you devote a significant amount of concentration on one thing (or a limited number of things) and a lesser degree of concentration on others - some people are particularly good at this skill (I am not very good at it to be honest but even I can concentrate on more than one thing at a time)

Friend, again you failed to get my point, Spliting is not called Concentration.
Yes, it's possible to concentrate on two sums, or three sums, or five sums at a time (depends on the skill), if one want to concentrate on five sums at a time, it together makes a one subject.

Concentrating on one subject means one is unaware of another subject.
Like, the one who is living in america doesn't know what is happening in australia.

Its subtle point, but once again i hope you may get it.

(Well, as my english is not so good, so i request IF anybody here on this forum who is understanding my point may explain this point to "Imformedignorance" )

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

God is perfect.
Something perfect can not be or do anything imperfect.
Gods will is therefore perfect.
Gods creation is also perfect.
Gods perfect creation has its own will.



What is imperfect ?

There is no logical reason why any of those statements are interdependent or true

 

[chinu]

There is no logical reason why any of those statements are interdependent or true

If there would have been no logical reason, than you wouldn't have replied to the thread. Thus.. the logic appeared the very right sec after your reply.

As you replied, isn't this the enough of logic ?

 

[Curious George]

...

Just quoting one of hers in order to toss my two cents on her side of the scale.

Saying perfect, absolutely, is actually the word play. Perfect is defined in many ways. I am not sure which definition people are using, but I would assert that every definition is, by definition, relational. To use the word "absolute" meaning free from relation as an adjective is very much contradictory.

Thus to Chinu, I would suggest that all of your statements about perfections and free will are based solely on perspective and can vary depending on the point at which one stands.

The problem that emerges with "perfection and imperfection" is that no universal truth can thus make an accounting: One can only hope to achieve the truest understanding from their point of view.

 

[Willamena]

There is no logical reason why any of those statements are interdependent or true

It's not formal logic. The statements present an image, and the image suggests an argument.

God's will is the expression of what God is; God's creation is what God does. The two statements can be synonymous. As God is given to be perfect, what place is there for imperfection (anywhere)? God's creation Man is said to be imperfect by virtue of its own will, which can be pitted against God's. I think this is where we find fault, and in this I agree with Chinu that there is no place for imperfection in this picture: anything Man is or does not distinct from God's will and God's creation. Where we've invented an "I" to take blame for actions deemed of guilt, we could project that onto God--but there is no such distinct individual to being doing blameful things, and blameful things are only done and deemed such because of the belief that there is. Individualism is to blame for a lot of the world's woes.

 

[idav]

It's not formal logic. The statements present an image, and the image suggests an argument.

God's will is the expression of what God is; God's creation is what God does. The two statements can be synonymous. As God is given to be perfect, what place is there for imperfection (anywhere)? God's creation Man is said to be imperfect by virtue of its own will, which can be pitted against God's. I think this is where we find fault, and in this I agree with Chinu that there is no place for imperfection in this picture: anything Man is or does not distinct from God's will and God's creation. Where we've invented an "I" to take blame for actions deemed of guilt, we could project that onto God--but there is no such distinct individual to being doing blameful things, and blameful things are only done and deemed such because of the belief that there is. Individualism is to blame for a lot of the world's woes.

As you had suggested Perfection is a comparison. If god is perfect then anything that is not god is imperfect even if it was literally made with gods perfect hand.

 

[Straw Dog]

Hello friend,

God is perfect.
Something perfect can not be or do anything imperfect.
Gods will is therefore perfect.
Gods creation is also perfect.
Gods perfect creation has its own will.

What is imperfect ?

God is imperfect.
Something imperfect can not be or do anything perfectly.
Gods will is therefore imperfect.
Gods creation is also imperfect.
Gods imperfect creation has its own will.

What is perfect?

 

[Willamena]

As you had suggested Perfection is a comparison. If god is perfect then anything that is not god is imperfect even if it was literally made with gods perfect hand.

That's not logical, though. Perfection, as a measure of quality, can be taken of anything. Each measurement of individual things is unique case. If God is individually measured and deemed perfect, that measurement does not inform other measurements taken of other things.

What I suggested in the post above is the God informs Man, so the measure of God is the measure of Man. I'd hoped to communicate the minimalizing of individualism.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

...

No, I completely get your point; it is simply incorrect however when applied to our cognitive capabilities.

 

[chinu]

Hello friend,



God is imperfect.
Something imperfect can not be or do anything perfectly.
Gods will is therefore imperfect.
Gods creation is also imperfect.
Gods imperfect creation has its own will.

OK

What is perfect?

As you think that all that you have said above is PERFECT, rather than IMPERFECT, Right ?
And you are God's creation, Right ?
Thus, you are God's perfect creation, rather than imperfect creation, and finally all that you said above goes wrong.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram :namaste

We do not leave our body when we think; our mind is a construct of our brain entirely within our bodies; to think of something is not to leave the body but simply to more strenuously use a single part of that body our brain.

if we are talking about god and perfection , then the concentration that we are talking about is realisation , one concentrates to the exclusion of all ignorance , thus realising perfection .

It is quite common to concentrate on more than one thing at a time, multi-tasking is an essential skill whether at work or looking after a home etc; all you have to do is not direct the entirety your attention to just one thing. Instead you devote a significant amount of concentration on one thing (or a limited number of things) and a lesser degree of concentration on others - some people are particularly good at this skill (I am not very good at it to be honest but even I can concentrate on more than one thing at a time)

the idea of concentrating on daily tasks is not quite the same thing .this idea of multi tasking is not concentration , it is merely co ordination . any one can train them selves to deal with a number of mundane tasks symultaniously .

concentration in its purist sence is going beyond the body and realising our true nature , ....realising the perfection of god :namaste

and when we are talking about illusion we are talking about being in the state of ignorance which dosent recognise god as being the driving force behind all things ,
the illusion is our sence of seperateness .

 

[chinu]

No, I completely get your point; it is simply incorrect however when applied to our cognitive capabilities.

I think, may be any other time i would be able to make you understand what i want to say you actually.

Anyways, i really enjoyed the questions in your mind, Yes.

 

[Paraprakrti]

God is perfect.
Something perfect can not be or do anything imperfect.
Gods will is therefore perfect.
Gods creation is also perfect.
Gods perfect creation has its own will.



What is imperfect ?

Yes. The only imperfection entails that we forget this perfection.

 

[chinu]

Yes. The only imperfection entails that we forget this perfection.

Just forgot for some time, and the one who forgot in the morning and returned back in the evening, is not said to be forgotten.

Anyhow, morning, or may be in the evening, at last one will come to know this perfection, Perfectly.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It's not formal logic. The statements present an image, and the image suggests an argument.

God's will is the expression of what God is; God's creation is what God does. The two statements can be synonymous. As God is given to be perfect, what place is there for imperfection (anywhere)? God's creation Man is said to be imperfect by virtue of its own will, which can be pitted against God's. I think this is where we find fault, and in this I agree with Chinu that there is no place for imperfection in this picture: anything Man is or does not distinct from God's will and God's creation. Where we've invented an "I" to take blame for actions deemed of guilt, we could project that onto God--but there is no such distinct individual to being doing blameful things, and blameful things are only done and deemed such because of the belief that there is. Individualism is to blame for a lot of the world's woes.

God would seem to be both omnipresent and all powerful. I have no Idea if he is "More Perfect" or "less perfect" than some undefined Ideal. I would suppose that by the end of time his creations might have achieved perfection. In the meantime it is reasonable to presume they are still less than perfect.

Perfection is an end point, the journey to it must always be less than perfect.

Even if you liken God to the perfect tool, there are stages in its use that are less than perfect.
Imperfection is a measure of that journey to perfection..