What is in a name: Why are Christians readily accepting of Judaic theology and not Islamic theology?

[wizanda]

Christian scripture claims Jesus is the messiah, which can be proven untrue according to the Hebrew scriptures

Is the Messiah can be proven; was the Messiah can not.

that G-d, heaven forbid, impregnated a virgin.

Isaiah 7 and Isaiah 8 is that Immanuel will be born to a virgin, and if we read all the contexts this is YHVH in the form of Yeshua.

'looking upon a woman in lust you have already commited adultery'

This is alluding to those who lust after the divorced Israel, and become fake Jews so they can claim they're chosen...

We have to read the whole contexts applied from Matthew 5:27-32, the statement removing the 'right eye', and 'right arm' is paraphrasing Zechariah 11:17, which is the 'Bill of Divorce' given to Israel.

In my opinion.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Christianity comes from Judaism.

Islam came afterwards

Even though Jesus said that many false prophets will come after Him, and that He was the last, people still believe in Islam because they don’t know the Bible.

What makes Muhammad a false prophet because he came after Jesus? Guess what? false prophets also came after Muhammad as well. Perhaps this is the phenomena of popularity. What was false about Muhammad's ultimate message?

I think it is hard for Christians to deny at its core the Islamic doctrine of God's authority over the universe.

 

[stvdv]

and to Moosa (Moses) Allah spoke directly

Sakeenah, thank you very much for explaining everything so well. From this it seems Islam is quite tolerant as regard to messengers. Happy to hear.

I have 1 question. Moses for me is kind of special in the sense "Allah spoke directly" and he is so dedicated to God. If I remember correctly Islam puts God very high [not human I mean]. Not like having children or being father? like in Christianity [correct me if I'm wrong]. I was brought up Christian, but I understand why Koran puts it in this way; in Sanathana Dharma I learned the same.

My question is now: Allah spoke directly to Moses. This is kind of personal. So, though not having father/son relationship with God according to Koran is it possible that God talks to us? I ask this because talking also gives me a kind of "human" feeling like in "father/son". How can I understand this, from the viewpoint of the Koran? That question can be divided in 2 questions. How was it in the case of Moses, and how would God talk to us, so me? Is it seen as a voice from within or from without?

 

[Libski]

Christian scripture claims Jesus is the messiah, which can be proven untrue according to the Hebrew scriptures, and that G-d, heaven forbid, impregnated a virgin. This alone means that Jesus could not have been the messiah as it invalidates his paternal claim to the seed of David, which is a prerequisite for being the messiah. The Christian testament also teaches contradictory things to Torah, such as 'looking upon a woman in lust you have already commited adultery', which is a sick doctrine and works for no-one. Experiencing lust is not a sin, acting on it is. So praise is due the person who looks in lust then turns his head and rejects it, rather than accusing him of a detestable crime.

It also confuses the burial places of the patriarchs and claims they are in Shechem, when it is Chevron.

Paul repeatedly misquotes Jewish scripture.

It has antisemitic ramblings and claims the Jews are the devil's children.

Where does it say that Jesus is not the son of G-d?

As for lust, (we may disagree) I believe that the Word transforms a person’s heart. They mature and change to the point that they wouldn’t lust after a woman that is not their wife. They would see the person, not the body.

I was baptised two years ago. I had an eating disorder and control. I struggled every time I had to eat. I had a constant “harsh inner critic” (that’s what we called it in the support group) that wore me down. I was constantly anxious and self-conscious. I couldn’t answer the front door without first checking to see if my face looked okay. It was a compulsion.

During my baptism they prayed for me to be freed from the eating disorder. I felt pressure build up in the left side of my brain (the area responsible for perception and my perception was distorted).

They prayed for me to be freed from control. My face started to feel really hot (I later realised that I had always worn a mask, a form of control).

Afterwards, I felt completely different. I had complete silence in my head - complete peace. I could eat without thinking about it, answer the door without checking the mirror, I no longer thought I looked fat (I was very thin) and my conscience was sharp, like a child.

I know Jesus is real. I know I have the Spirit of G-d in me. I feel a tranquil peace every day. I had never felt this before in my life - I had an eating disorder for as long as I can remember and Jesus set me free.

 

[wizanda]

Do you believe that God tests people when He tells us not to test Him?

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

No one will be a king in the Messianic age, if they're not wise enough to recognize the deliberate mistakes.

There is only one Gospel - the message that is meant for the whole world.

There are two Gospels: Yeshua came teaching that by the sign of his coming, the Messianic age will happen, and all the things prophesied...

That if we do the work of God, and become a light, then we will be deemed family; which is a living Gospel.

Paul, John and Simon teach a dead Gospel, that jesus came to die for the sins of the world, and by believing that you'll be saved.

What’s your faith background, out of interest?

I'm an Arch Angel sent before the Tribulation; thus have read many of the religions, and only follow the Oneness of God.

In my opinion.

 

[Rival]

Where does it say that Jesus is not the son of G-d?

The very idea itself is blasphemous. G-d is one.

As for the rest of your post, I'm very glad it worked for you, but your feelings are not scriptural proof.

 

[rosends]

Thank you for sharing but it contradicts the idea that Islam and Judaism shares the same ideas of God but not in effect the same God.

No, it doesn't contradict it -- that is precisely the point I made.

As the Rabbi and the subsequent proofs I have provided, Arabic is a Semitic language that has similarities.

Language origin is unrelated to theology.

Both idea and effect and by effect I mean implementing the idea are the same. It is the same deity because there is only one. Now if we are going to get into particulars of attributes that is another conversation but the basic tenants are still there. Islam is pure monotheism as is Judaism. Both have to have beyond the shared ideas. It has to be the same.

Except that this is wrong. While you can say that conceptually (in their monotheism) the god figure is the same, then that's fine. But if your God claims to have said X, and mine claims to have said not-X, either you are accusing me of lying or you are accepting that the particular god figures (since the one god is not self-contradicting) must be different. So is my religion lying or are we talking about two different iterations, each supposedly conforming to the same ideal?

 

[Libski]

What makes Muhammad a false prophet because he came after Jesus? Guess what? false prophets also came after Muhammad as well. Perhaps this is the phenomena of popularity. What was false about Muhammad's ultimate message?

I think it is hard for Christians to deny at its core the Islamic doctrine of God's authority over the universe.

God gave dominion to man and men gave it to the enemy of God.

On what basis do I reject all prophets after Jesus (and there are many)? I believe what Jesus said, I’ve seen that His message is true. “Lay hands on the sick and they shall recover”. I’ve seen this.

The Bible is a finished book.

Lastly, Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and save man. Why would God send another prophet?

 

[rosends]

We didn't invent the Trinity (which is an allegory , we believe in one God, not in three), because we just used the term Ruach which is the dynamic power of God, to explain how Creation took place. It's not another deity.

There are a few problems theologically with Christianity and its conception of the godhead. The idea that there can be three separate emanations/manifestations that are both individual and part of a whole is antithetical to Judaic monotheism. The idea of an opposite force challenging God is also problematic.

We do underline that the term Ruach is feminine, and this shows how God is both mother and father. I think Jews agree on the fact that God's creative force is Love.

While esoteric elements of Judaism try to communicate an idea of the masculine and feminine while also accepting that God has no gender (and it is simply the limitation of human language that has gendered nouns which points to the idea of a male/female issue), that last phrase about "creative force is love" has no meaning in Judaism.

With all due respect, if I think of the Great Synagogue of Rome, it does look like a Church, both on the outside and on the inside. So I don't understand what you mean by suspect structure.

It isn't about architecture (at least not initially -- there is discussion to be had about that in another thread) but about the purpose of a church, regardless of its physical attributes. If it is a place of idolatry, then it is a place of idolatry, regardless of the presence or absence of a flying buttress.

 

[Libski]

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

No one will be a king in the Messianic age, if they're not wise enough to recognize the deliberate mistakes.

There are two Gospels: Yeshua came teaching that by the sign of his coming, the Messianic age will happen, and all the things prophesied...

That if we do the work of God, and become a light, then we will be deemed family; which is a living Gospel.

Paul, John and Simon teach a dead Gospel, that jesus came to die for the sins of the world, and by believing that you'll be saved.

I'm an Arch Angel sent before the Tribulation; thus have read many of the religions, and only follow the Oneness of God.

In my opinion.

Who is Jesus?

 

[Augustus]

The problem with the trinity is that it is an invention, a theological philosophy that was supplemental to the New Testament. The theology of the trinity was not even a part of Jesus' ministries. The recitation of the Sh'ma is proof of that.

The problem is that this idea is that most Christians don't agree with this.

I think the disagreement of the Qur'an regarding Christianity at that time was mostly focusing on "Paulinian Christianity." Unitarians were not around in Arabia so they were not even attached to that critique.

Regarding your OP, the vast majority of Christians are Pauline Christians though. You can't really take his influence out and still be talking about the same religion.

A significant portion of the Quran though is commentary on religious traditions that the audience is assumed to be familiar with.

Regarding the relationship between the religions:

In short, while there are Christian formulas in the Qur’ān, there are no clear Jewish formulas in it, and the same can be said about its apparently pro-Jewish formulas. Conversely, there are a considerable number of anti-Jewish polemical formulas (which cannot be read as intra-Jewish ones in contrast to many of the anti-Christian polemical formulas that can be interpreted as intra-Christian controversial formulas, on which see below), as well as a few anti-Jewish (and anti-Christian) supersessionist formulas in the Qur’ān.

Thus we have in the latter:
(a1) Christian formulas ✓;
(a2) Pro-Christian formulas ✓;
(a3) Anti-Christian (and/or intra-Christian) polemical formulas ✓; and
(a4) Anti-Christian supersessionist formulas ✓;
vs.
(b1) Jewish formulas ? ;
(b2) Pro-Jewish formulas ? ;
(b3) Anti-Jewish polemical formulas ✓; and
(b4) Anti-Jewish supersessionist formulas ✓.

Also, when one looks into the biblical material in the Qur’ān – by biblical I mean here relative to the Hebrew Bible alone – one gets the overall impression that this material is generally read through a Christian lens; in fact, its knowledge is often mediated through other, basically Syriac-Christian, texts (e.g. the Joseph story in Q 12, as convincingly shown by Witztum 2011).
(A Messianic Controversy Behind the Making of Muḥammad as the Last Prophet?)

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

theologically when it comes to the Oneness of God, this is the core and the essential aspect of the Abrahamic tradition.

And this is present even in Trinitarian beliefs. God the Father is the very same as God the Son (who is God the Father manifest in the flesh here on Earth,) who is the very same as God the Spirit (who is the breath of life and divine essence of god within all living things.)

It's also been addressed that Christianity quite selectively "accepts" Jewish theology. More often than not it changes and "updates" the theology, just as Islam did with both before it. They are all three Abrahamic in that they worship Yahweh, the god of Abraham.

Now, concerning your view regarding the "chronological order" of Islam being after Christianity is not even a relevant point. The issue is not whether Islam came after Christianity, the issue is the lack of support for Islamic concepts concerning God's oneness, authority, and the theological concepts that are on par with Judaism.

An issue which is non-existent. If Islam's concepts regarding Yahweh are the exact same, then Christianity accepts and/rejects them on the very same level. Even by claiming and believing that Jesus is the Messiah, the son of Yahweh, Christianity diverges from Jewish theology significantly. Their portrayal of Satan as some villainous, evil spirit (of which Islam does too,) also separates from the Jewish theology regarding Satan.

So your issue seems very fuzzy. It's not like Christians are playing favorites with who they take cues from (which is where the chronology comes in; why would Christianity take inspiration from a later religion?), and they've changed quite a bit of Jewish theology to where it can't really be said that they're accepting it. Neither are Christians rejecting Islamic theology concerning the nature of Yahweh; the prophethood of Mohammed isn't a theological issue per se. This just seems to be yet another "those poor misunderstood and theologically bullied Muslims" thread.

 

[Libski]

The very idea itself is blasphemous. G-d is one.

As for the rest of your post, I'm very glad it worked for you, but your feelings are not scriptural proof.

The next time you meet a Christian (born again, baptised in water, received the spirit of G-d) ask them to lay hands on you and pray for you.

You don’t have to believe - just ask to be filled with the spirit of G-d.

I promise you, G-d will fill you and you will be transformed.

If I was near you I would do it

 

[Rival]

The next time you meet a Christian (born again, baptised in water, received the spirit of G-d) ask them to lay hands on you and pray for you.

You don’t have to believe - just ask to be filled with the spirit of G-d.

I promise you, G-d will fill you and you will be transformed.

If I was near you I would do it

I was a Christian for years, so I've been there. I believe it is a false, idolatrous religion that has nothing to do with the G-d of Israel.

So, no thank you.

 

[wizanda]

The very idea itself is blasphemous. G-d is one.

God (EL) is One...

Elohim is plural, and YHVH Elohim is head of the Council of Elohim (Psalms 82:1, Psalms 89:5-7, Psalms 135:5, etc).

Who is Jesus?

Yeshua Elohim is an incarnation of YHVH Elohim.

Elohim means Arch Angels, and Judaism has forgotten its Israelite roots.

In my opinion.

 

[Libski]

I was a Christian for years, so I've been there. I believe it is a false, idolatrous religion that has nothing to do with the G-d of Israel.

So, no thank you.

In what way were you a Christian? In the biblical sense? (Baptised, received the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues)

Or in the religious sense? (Followed a group).

 

[stvdv]

As for lust, (we may disagree) I believe that the Word transforms a person’s heart. They mature and change to the point that they wouldn’t lust after a woman that is not their wife. They would see the person, not the body.

@Libski: Thanks for the nice observation. I know that this works for me, being a man. Though not 100% sure. My spiritual path is being diciple [surrender]. I choose to be celibate. Like 15y ago someone told me "you need sex, all suppressed desires in you". I'm scientific, so like to find out. So mentally I told my master "I never feel desire, but I know you take karma-stuff away from your diciples. So please show me how much desires is still there". OMG, after 60sec I said "Oke God, I have seen enough, put the lid on again please". Desires were gone again. No desires for 15y. Maybe soon I will ask again. Just curious.

So when being a diciple, sometimes stuff seems different than it is. Good experience, good to know. Keeps me humble. Lots of Love and Grace in this Universe.

 

[Libski]

God (EL) is One

Elohim is plural, and YHVH Elohim is head of the Council of Elohim (Psalms 82:1, Psalms 89:5-7, etc).

Yeshua Elohim is an incarnation of YHVH Elohim.

Elohim means Arch Angels, and Judaism has forgotten its Israelite roots.

In my opinion.

Have you read the Book of Acts?

 

[rosends]

True and @Tumah has already explained this. Now, if this is true concerning praying in a mosque because the faith in Islam is pure monotheism then why not other monotheistic faiths like Sikhism? I think it is not simply because of a monotheistic belief but rather, the shared theology that both Judaism and Islam holds.

Are you saying that it is forbidden in Judaism to enter a temple of the Sikhs so you wonder about the distinction? If so, please provide the relevant Jewish responsa which will, no doubt, provide its sources to explain. Your assumption that Jews are allowed to enter mosques because of a "shared theology" is flat out wrong. it is because of a shared vision of monotheism which saves the mosque from any label of "house of idolatry" (according to most opinions -- for the dissenting opinion see footnote 15 of https://torah.org/torah-portion/weekly-halacha-5772-bo/).

 

[wizanda]

Have you read the Book of Acts?

Find it like a fairy tale if we examine history, the early church split from the beginning; like the Wheat is the Synoptic Gospels, and the Tares are John, Paul, and Simon.

In my opinion.