What is incorrect with those people who drink alcohol?

[Aštra’el]

Whilst I completely agree with your last sentence, are you really suggesting that religion has absolutely no impact on how people think or act?

I never said that. Religions are powerful and exploitable systems; the best way to conquer a people is to change the way they believe.

 

[Aštra’el]

But you dismiss the notion that the human is just another part of nature, driven by whatever natural forces are at play -- and that some of those natural forces include belief.

I do not dismiss the power of Will and choice.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Yeah, I'm with you. If I ever have kids and am bad at parenting, I'll hand them over to you.

I'm decent enough at it, I guess. At least, my kids so far seem to be well balanced and likeable. Early days.
In any case, whether it's nature or nurture, I get to take credit.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I never said that. Religions are powerful and exploitable systems; the best way to conquer a people is to change the way they believe.

Then you seem to be reducing murder to a physical act with no mental input.

 

[Aštra’el]

Then you seem to be reducing murder to a physical act with no mental input.

I never said that, in fact, three posts above I specifically wrote, "I do not dismiss the power of Will and choice".

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I never said that, in fact, three posts above I specifically wrote, "I do not dismiss the power of Will and choice".

Then why disconnect something that you yourself believe can change how people act from the act? To be clear, in my mind, the individual is always responsible.

But that doesn't change the fact that various ideological beliefs can make an individual either more or less likely to kill.

Convert all of New York to devout Jainism. What happens to the murder rate?

 

[Aštra’el]

To be clear, in my mind, the individual is always responsible.

But that doesn't change the fact that various ideological beliefs can make an individual either more or less likely to kill.

I never said anything contrary to this; it's possible you misunderstand my position.

My only point really was that religions do not kill people, people kill people. I think some here may be incorrectly defining "religion" as the group practicing a belief system, rather than the belief system itself.

Of course I acknowledge the power of religion, and it's ability to influence and motivate and inspire. You should hear of the glorious things I have to say about the Bible. However I do not downplay the power of Will and choice; I attribute the act of killing to the individual(s) doing the killing, no matter how influenced they may have been by a religion. At any point they could have said "no more", or "I will not proceed with this", but instead they continue on. This is the individual(s) doing the killing, not the religion.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I do not dismiss the power of Will and choice.

Of which, you may be surprised to learn, we seem to have much less than most people suppose. Try the book "Free Will" by Sam Harris, for example (very short). Or check out the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy discussion on the topic. Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[Aštra’el]

Of which, you may be surprised to learn, we seem to have much less than most people suppose. Try the book "Free Will" by Sam Harris, for example (very short). Or check out the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy discussion on the topic. Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Did I say "free will"? No, I did not. I said "Will", as in, "a strong desire or determination to do something"; "a person's choice or desire in a particular situation"; "the mental power used to direct your thoughts and actions", etc. I tend to capitalize it because the word is of extreme spiritual-religious significance to me.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I never said anything contrary to this; it's possible you misunderstand my position.

My only point really was that religions do not kill people, people kill people. I think some here may be incorrectly defining "religion" as the group practicing a belief system, rather than the belief system itself.

Of course I acknowledge the power of religion, and it's ability to influence and motivate and inspire. You should hear of the glorious things I have to say about the Bible. However I do not downplay the power of Will and choice; I attribute the act of killing to the individual(s) doing the killing, no matter how influenced they may have been by a religion. At any point they could have said "no more", or "I will not proceed with this", but instead they continue on. This is the individual(s) doing the killing, not the religion.

*considers*

Okay. I think we're actually on the same page then, but just present it differently.
Be it alcohol, religious belief, greed or lust, whatever it is that leads someone to convince themselves they should kill, for me it doesn't at all abrogate personal responsibility. On that we seem in accord.

And yes, you are correct in stating that religions don't kill people, and further that 'religion' is commonly used when in fact 'religious' is more apt.

Some religions likely have a negative impact on the murder rate due to the interpretations commonly held by their believers, and some have a positive impact for the same reason. Could you live with that as a statement?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Nations who allow alcohol are breading murderers 3 times faster then nations who bread terrorists.

Terrorists kill. Moreover, if the above were true, it would merely indicate that perhaps making alcohol legal reduces the number of terrorists "bread".

The chances of being killed in a terrorist attack are about 1 in 20 million. A person is as likely to be killed by his or her own furniture, and more likely to die in a car accident, drown in a bathtub, or in a building fire than from a terrorist attack.

So the chances of frequent events are greater than infrequent events.
By your reasoning, breathing, travelling, and eating are more dangerous than terrorism or alcohol

 

[viole]

Nations who allow alcohol are breading murderers 3 times faster then nations who bread terrorists.

The chances of being killed in a terrorist attack are about 1 in 20 million. A person is as likely to be killed by his or her own furniture, and more likely to die in a car accident, drown in a bathtub, or in a building fire than from a terrorist attack.

(edit:In USA)
• One person is killed every half-hour due to drunk driving
• Each year approximately 16,000 are killed in alcohol related crashes
• Alcohol is a factor in almost half of all traffic fatalities
• Every other minute a person is seriously injured in an alcohol related crash

Drunk Driving Facts - Drunk Driving Statistics

Non sequitur. You should ask what is wrong with people who drink alcohol AND drive a car, while drunk.

According to your logic, we should also ask ourselves what is wrong with people that use texting on their cell phone, or open threads called "what is wrong with .....", since it can create very dangerous traffic hazards when done while driving.

On a side note, does the original stigma concerning alkohol come from the steep increase in dromedary accidents when consumed?

Ciao

- viole