What is life?

[Marsh]

Same could be said of you...exactly. We try and try to point to the illogical conclusions of the atheist, and they just don't see it.

This is different. Genesis really does describe the world as looking like a snow globe. You only need to read the words to understand what we are talking about. What happens though, is that Christians have their own mind's image of what the world looks like, and without thinking simply impose their image of the world on the words in Genesis while they are reading. They skip lightly through without stopping to think about what the words are really describing. The Hebrew cosmology describes a world nothing like the one we live in, but instead portrays the world as the Bronze Age Hebrews imagined it.

 

[Marsh]

No dinosaurs were brought before Adam because they were long extinct before Adam's creation.

It's getting too late for me so I will make only one comment. I was raised to believe in the six day creation, and so God not bring T-Rex before Adam to name created a real conundrum.

 

[Sonofason]

May I recommend a book? The author is Francis Collins, lead scientist on the Human Genome Project. Collins is probably the leading geneticist in the United States, and his book, The Language of God, is a best seller and a very easy read. Collins is a Christian, an evangelical Christian, but he is 100% behind evolution of all life from a single cell. Some of the evidence he presents is pretty remarkable, but he believes God directed that evolution. There is no proof of divine intervention, and no proof against, but there is plenty of genetic support that humans evolved from lower life forms. There really is no denying it once you have seen the evidence, but if you are like Collins then it is no reason not to believe in God.

What evidence did you see for evolution of species?

 

[Sonofason]

This is different. Genesis really does describe the world as looking like a snow globe. You only need to read the words to understand what we are talking about. What happens though, is that Christians have their own mind's image of what the world looks like, and without thinking simply impose their image of the world on the words in Genesis while they are reading. They skip lightly through without stopping to think about what the words are really describing. The Hebrew cosmology describes a world nothing like the one we live in, but instead portrays the world as the Bronze Age Hebrews imagined it.

And you say the sun rises, and in reality it doesn't...so what? Guess y'all don't understand metaphoric language and allegories.

 

[Sonofason]

It's getting too late for me so I will make only one comment. I was raised to believe in the six day creation, and so God not bring T-Rex before Adam to name created a real conundrum.

May I recommend a book? The author is Francis Collins, lead scientist on the Human Genome Project. Collins is probably the leading geneticist in the United States, and his book, The Language of God, is a best seller and a very easy read. Collins is a Christian, an evangelical Christian, but he is 100% behind evolution of all life from a single cell. Some of the evidence he presents is pretty remarkable, but he believes God directed that evolution. There is no proof of divine intervention, and no proof against, but there is plenty of genetic support that humans evolved from lower life forms. There really is no denying it once you have seen the evidence, but if you are like Collins then it is no reason not to believe in God.

Actually, we need to back up. I never said I don't believe in evolution. But then again, like you, I haven't seen all the evidence. It simply hasn't been proven to me. And it doesn't need to be.

I, I suppose, like your friend Francis Collins, have it all worked out. There is no conflict between evolution and creation. I haven't been 100% convinced that evolution is completely true, but I don't need it to be proven to me. I'm perfectly fine if it should be true that evolution is 100% true. Or not. It really doesn't matter. I know that God is the creator. And knowing that, everything falls into place nearly perfectly.

 

[Sonofason]

Such complex interactions we call "life" don't exist just everywhere in the universe. It is a rare phenomena which is as far as we know isolated to this one planet we call Earth. It doesn't matter if we are alive or not, we should try to preserve such rare interactions within nature rather than destroy them. I find your comment quite illogical.

Actually, it isn't me that is illogical, it is the definition of murder that is illogical. Perhaps get that changed, and reword the laws forbidding murder, and you may find some logic. Until then, I won't say you are illogical, but you are not seeing the logic.

 

[Runewolf1973]

If man creates Gods, why haven't you created one?

There are literally hundreds of thousands of gods in the world already, do we really need any more?

 

[ArtieE]

You say there is no life. I'd like to see you prove that statement. I know that life does exist.

You know that some people within the scientific community have made a list of things such as adaption and reproduction and growth and said that if something can do those things we call it alive. A virus isn't "life" today but if tomorrow they shortened the list a virus might suddenly become a lifeform. The basic unit of life is the cell. If the Christian God isn't composed of cells he is per definition not alive and not a lifeform. The only reason there is something called life is because we have decided to give some organisms capable of doing certain things a certain word to describe them.

 

[ArtieE]

And you say the sun rises, and in reality it doesn't...so what? Guess y'all don't understand metaphoric language and allegories.

How come whenever the Bible gets the facts wrong it's just metaphoric language and allegories? Since the definition of allegory is "a story in which the characters and events are symbols that stand for ideas about human life" then I assume all the stories with God in them are allegories too? What does God symbolize?

 

[ArtieE]

In Scripture, God is Not only Almighty God but Heavenly Father.
The word father means: life giver
So, one reason God exists is to give life.- Psalms 104:30
First to angelic creation, then material/physical creation.

You misunderstand. Why does this life giver exist in the first place instead of no life giver? Something (God) exists instead of nothing. Why?

 

[Sonofason]

There are literally hundreds of thousands of gods in the world already, do we really need any more?

I suppose not.

But the truth is there really aren't hundreds of thousands of gods in the world. There can only be one.
God is defined as: the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=God+def

There can only be one supreme being. There can be only one ruler of the universe. There can be only one source of "all" moral authority. The Nephilim that were worshiped by the ancient Greeks for example were not Gods at all. And the Bible explains how those creatures came into existence:

"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." (Genesis 6:1-4)

They were your Greek gods, with a very very small g.

 

[Sonofason]

You know that some people within the scientific community have made a list of things such as adaption and reproduction and growth and said that if something can do those things we call it alive. A virus isn't "life" today but if tomorrow they shortened the list a virus might suddenly become a lifeform. The basic unit of life is the cell. If the Christian God isn't composed of cells he is per definition not alive and not a lifeform. The only reason there is something called life is because we have decided to give some organisms capable of doing certain things a certain word to describe them.

That's true. And that would be fine with me. I already consider virus' as being alive.

And you know that some people within the scientific community have made another arbitrary list of such things as physical traits, characteristics, and ability to produce viable offspring, and said if there exists organisms with similar characteristics and an ability to produce viable offspring that they are to be called a species of organisms. Yes it's all arbitrary. We can draw the lines where ever we want. Well, I've drawn mine too. And I am very much alive. Maybe you are not.

 

[Sonofason]

How come whenever the Bible gets the facts wrong it's just metaphoric language and allegories? Since the definition of allegory is "a story in which the characters and events are symbols that stand for ideas about human life" then I assume all the stories with God in them are allegories too? What does God symbolize?

God is a word as well. Quite simply the word God is just a metaphor, a symbolic representation of the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

 

[Marsh]

Actually, we need to back up. I never said I don't believe in evolution. But then again, like you, I haven't seen all the evidence. It simply hasn't been proven to me. And it doesn't need to be.

I, I suppose, like your friend Francis Collins, have it all worked out. There is no conflict between evolution and creation. I haven't been 100% convinced that evolution is completely true, but I don't need it to be proven to me. I'm perfectly fine if it should be true that evolution is 100% true. Or not. It really doesn't matter. I know that God is the creator. And knowing that, everything falls into place nearly perfectly.

My impression is that you accept evolution to a point. I think you reject that humans evolved from lower life forms, but grant that the animals may have evolved. Collins demonstrates quite conclusively that we too are animals and that we evolved from the primates. One point that stands out in my mind is his evidence that mice and humans have a common ancestor. There is no getting around the genetic evidence he sets forth. I found it really fascinating.

 

[Marsh]

What evidence did you see for evolution of species?

There is just so much I hardly know where to begin, but one of the most impressive pieces of evidence comes from Neil Shubin's book
Your Inner Fish: A Journey Into the 3.5-Billion-Year History of the Human Body. One way to tell that a scientific theory is reflective of reality is that it is predictive. Perhaps you already know the story of the fossil Tiktaalik? What sells me on this fossil demonstrating the truth behind the theory of evolution is the method used to track the fossil down. Shubin and colleagues wanted to find an intermediate animal on the lineage of creatures transitioning from a fish to amphibian. Paleontologists had already determined the time period in which such an animal would live and they knew in what environment to look for it. Using geologic topographic maps that identified rock outcrops of different ages Shubin located a spot in the Canadian high arctic that was of the right age and headed there with colleagues. Creationists are always arguing that the dating methods for the rock ages are terribly flawed, so for Shubin's search to turn up the fossil they were looking for the ages of the rock had to be precise. After a thorough search they found the intermediate form they were looking for (where the map predicted it would be), demonstrating that measurement of the age of rock outcrops is accurate and that the type of animal the theory of evolution predicted would exist, did exist.

 

[Marsh]

God is a word as well. Quite simply the word God is just a metaphor, a symbolic representation of the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

When chimps or other animals behave in a moral fashion it is certainly not in deference to God. Do you suppose they are responding to a moral imperative established by God? How do you account for chimps, or even monkeys, acting morally?

 

[Marsh]

God is a word as well. Quite simply the word God is just a metaphor, a symbolic representation of the creator and ruler of the universe...

Would you consider my son's name as being just a metaphor?

From Wikipedia:
"A metaphor is a figure of speech that refers to something as being the same as another thing for rhetorical effect. It may provide clarity or identify hidden similarities between two ideas. Where a simile compares two items, a metaphor directly equates them, and does not use "like" or "as" as does a simile. One of the most commonly cited examples of a metaphor in English literature is the "All the world's a stage" monologue from As You Like It:

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances[...]
—William Shakespeare, As You Like It"

Sonofason, I am not so certain you are using the word metaphor correctly. I don't think a name is a metaphor and I am not so sure that the creation account is a metaphor either. When you read the creation account literally it actually describes the world as displayed in the image ArtieE posted (#180). The creation account also matches the Babylonian picture of the world. There are other Bronze Age societies that also shared this cosmological view.

 

[Sonofason]

My impression is that you accept evolution to a point. I think you reject that humans evolved from lower life forms, but grant that the animals may have evolved. Collins demonstrates quite conclusively that we too are animals and that we evolved from the primates. One point that stands out in my mind is his evidence that mice and humans have a common ancestor. There is no getting around the genetic evidence he sets forth. I found it really fascinating.

I can walk outside when its raining and see and feel the rain. I know it sometimes rains. I know with certainty that it is roughly composed of the same stuff that comes out of my kitchen faucet. It's roughly the same stuff I might find in a river or lake. We call it water. I know it exists.

I have never seen anything evolve...not ever. I have never seen a gene. I have never seen a DNA molecule. I will admit I might have seen photographs of DNA molecules, but I certainly can't be sure. In order for me to believe in evolution, and in genes and the DNA molecule, I must rely on the word of those who claim they actually exist. And I just don't trust people as much as I trust myself. So I will not be 100% certain that evolution takes place, unless I can see it happen with my own eyes. I must experience it for myself to be certain, well, certain enough to say I know for a fact its true.

I know, we can't even be 100% certain that what we experience ourselves is accurate and true, but we have to start somewhere. And I trust me more than I trust any other person in the entire world. So I say evolution may be true. And that's all you're gonna get from me until I see it with my own eyes. But you know...it's not all that important to me. I have accepted that it might be true, and it does no harm to my faith in God at all.

I'm glad your friend has evidence that mice and humans have a common ancestor. I can't say that. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't. There is a lot of science that fascinates me as well, but it doesn't mean that I believe it 100%.

I have no problem with the idea that human beings evolved from lower life forms either, if it should be true. As I said...it doesn't matter to me...it does no harm to my faith, and I can easily squeeze it in to that which was written in the Bible, which I do believe is true. Now, I am not 100% sure that everything in the Bible is true...no one can know that. But I do know that God exists. Because as I said, I trust my own experience over the word of anyone in the entire world..and I have experienced God for myself. Now I know could be wrong...but I would bet my life that I am not.

 

[Sonofason]

There is just so much I hardly know where to begin, but one of the most impressive pieces of evidence comes from Neil Shubin's book
Your Inner Fish: A Journey Into the 3.5-Billion-Year History of the Human Body. One way to tell that a scientific theory is reflective of reality is that it is predictive. Perhaps you already know the story of the fossil Tiktaalik? What sells me on this fossil demonstrating the truth behind the theory of evolution is the method used to track the fossil down. Shubin and colleagues wanted to find an intermediate animal on the lineage of creatures transitioning from a fish to amphibian. Paleontologists had already determined the time period in which such an animal would live and they knew in what environment to look for it. Using geologic topographic maps that identified rock outcrops of different ages Shubin located a spot in the Canadian high arctic that was of the right age and headed there with colleagues. Creationists are always arguing that the dating methods for the rock ages are terribly flawed, so for Shubin's search to turn up the fossil they were looking for the ages of the rock had to be precise. After a thorough search they found the intermediate form they were looking for (where the map predicted it would be), demonstrating that measurement of the age of rock outcrops is accurate and that the type of animal the theory of evolution predicted would exist, did exist.

Okay, evidence is great. It doesn't guarantee that something is true, but it's a good start. I hope it turns out to be true.

 

[Sonofason]

When chimps or other animals behave in a moral fashion it is certainly not in deference to God. Do you suppose they are responding to a moral imperative established by God? How do you account for chimps, or even monkeys, acting morally?

Well, it's due to sunlight. If there were no sunlight, the chimps or monkeys would behave less morally, and then they would die.