What is life?

[Marsh]

Please provide a link to the video.

See post #247

I was listening to it last night and may have heard the part my son was talking about, though it was very brief and Harris didn't sound mystified as I had expected. I haven't heard the part on Trump, so may I've not watched long enough.

 

[Marsh]

I have toyed with the idea that God is all matter and energy, converting himself from one form to another.

If God is matter and or energy then he is also part of the physical universe and can be tested for scientifically.

I do have a weak suspicion that all things are aware to some degree, I suppose depending on the complexity of the substance.

I don't think my paper shredder is aware. Perhaps though you only mean natural objects such as rocks, or living things such as the tree in my neighbour's yard? Coincidentally Harris talks about awareness, starting with his coffee mug and progressing to plants (the issue was raised by the host of the podcast who thinks plants might be aware).

But I believe God is much more than that, and that all that exists is his creation.

Pantheists believe that God is present in all things, including all of us. You are not saying that, are you? You are simply asserting that God made all things in the natural world.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I have toyed with the idea that God is all matter and energy, converting himself from one form to another. If that should be the case, I'm okay with that. I do have a weak suspicion that all things are aware to some degree, I suppose depending on the complexity of the substance. But I believe God is much more than that, and that all that exists is his creation.

No, not alive. All things are interactive to some degree. Some things are more interactive than others.

 

[Sonofason]

If God is matter and or energy then he is also part of the physical universe and can be tested for scientifically.


I don't think my paper shredder is aware. Perhaps though you only mean natural objects such as rocks, or living things such as the tree in my neighbour's yard? Coincidentally Harris talks about awareness, starting with his coffee mug and progressing to plants (the issue was raised by the host of the podcast who thinks plants might be aware).


Pantheists believe that God is present in all things, including all of us. You are not saying that, are you? You are simply asserting that God made all things in the natural world.

I do not believe that God is necessarily matter and/or energy. But if he were matter and energy, you already have measured him.

To have awareness implies that something or someone is aware. To be aware we must only be aware of something, not everything. I am not aware of how many ants I stepped on when I took out the trash this morning.

To have awareness is to have a certain knowledge about something. To have knowledge about something does not require one to have knowledge about everything. Having knowledge about one thing is sufficient to be considered aware.

Knowledge can be defined and is defined as familiarity gained by experience.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/knowledge

It seems to me that atoms are constantly interacting and experiencing other atoms. They certainly can gain familiarity with other atoms and even an intimate familiarity, to the extent where two atoms can join forces to become a completely different and new structure, such as a molecule. These molecules can then join forces with other molecules and become completely different structures. I seriously doubt this could happen if they were not aware of one another. The hydrogen atom has its properties, and it "knows" very well it's propensity to join forces with other atoms and molecules. Is a hydrogen atom aware of me? Perhaps not, but that does not mean it is not aware of itself or that it is not aware of other atoms and/or molecules that enter into its environment.

 

[Sonofason]

No, not alive. All things are interactive to some degree. Some things are more interactive than others.

Did I say alive?

 

[Runewolf1973]

Did I say alive?

Sorry, I read that wrong. Was half asleep. The same thing applies though. Alive...aware...makes no difference. It is all interacting at the most fundamental level.

 

[Sonofason]

Sorry, I read that wrong. Was half asleep. The same thing applies though. Alive...aware...makes no difference. It is all interacting at the most fundamental level.

I understand that you believe that nothing is alive, that there is no such thing as life; that all we see around us are various degrees of interaction. It appears that you are also suggesting that nothing is aware either; that stuff is interacting with other stuff, but none of the stuff is aware that it is doing that. Yet you are here also suggesting that you are aware of this fact. How can this be?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You'd be in error about that. The reason a predator like a lion cannot easily be released into the wild when raised from a cub, is that it missed out on all the necessary learning from adult lions as it was growing up. That's just a single example. Also, people have more instinctive behaviours than you might imagine. If someone we are interacting with yawns, we yawn. That's instinctive. I can think of a few more examples, but that may just be the tip of the ice-burgh.
Mosquitoes won't bite us anymore?

Apparently mosquitoes won't bite us - Isaiah 35 - because No one will say, " I am sick...." Isaiah 33:24
There are examples of people who raised deer or turkeys,chimps etc. from birth and later on turned on the hand that fed them.
Is yawning instinct or ?
What animal would instinctively throw itself in front of moving vehicle to save another animal, whereas by conscience we would do that for another person.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Pre-human Jesus?

Yes, before God sent the heavenly Jesus to Earth to be born as a sinless human, Jesus had a pre-human heavenly existence as God's beginning of His creation - Revelation 3:14

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I agree, that is my understanding...God is 'Spirit", but then God's Son Jesus, at least for a time, embodied matter. If the Son of God can embody matter, I'm quite sure God can too. He probably does.

It was at Jesus' baptism that Jesus fully knew of his pre-human existence because the heavens were then opened up to him - Matthew 3:16-17; Mark 1:10-11; Luke 3:21-22

God could embody matter but does He ?
According to 1 Kings 8:39,45,49 God has a specific heavenly location or dwelling place. God sends forth His spirit - Psalms 104:30

 

[Runewolf1973]

I understand that you believe that nothing is alive, that there is no such thing as life; that all we see around us are various degrees of interaction. It appears that you are also suggesting that nothing is aware either; that stuff is interacting with other stuff, but none of the stuff is aware that it is doing that. Yet you are here also suggesting that you are aware of this fact. How can this be?

And specifically what is this "awareness" you speak of? What does it consist of? Is it some mysterious substance you can point at or identify? I am suggesting that awareness is a complex form of interaction, so really what we are doing right now is interacting. I use the term interaction because it is more descriptive and tells us what is actually the cause behind or reason for having this "aware" state. Awareness is really nothing without interaction. How can you have awareness if there is no cause behind that awareness? Does it appear magically?

 

[Sonofason]

It was at Jesus' baptism that Jesus fully knew of his pre-human existence because the heavens were then opened up to him - Matthew 3:16-17; Mark 1:10-11; Luke 3:21-22

God could embody matter but does He ?
According to 1 Kings 8:39,45,49 God has a specific heavenly location or dwelling place. God sends forth His spirit - Psalms 104:30

I have no way of knowing this, whether or not God embodies matter.

However,
Jeremiah 23:24 “Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord?
Psalm 139:7-10 “Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.”

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I have no way of knowing this, whether or not God embodies matter.
However,
Jeremiah 23:24 “Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord?
Psalm 139:7-10 “Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.”

When God sends forth His spirit - Psalms 104:30 - then things happen.
Even the dead in sheol (grave) can't hide from God even though God's dwelling place or location is Heaven - 1 Kings 8:49
God's spirit is neuter - Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25
God and Jesus are always in the masculine gender, whereas God's spirit is neuter as 'it'.
Just as we might refer to a car or ship as a ' she ' it still remains a neuter 'it'.

 

[Sonofason]

And specifically what is this "awareness" you speak of? What does it consist of? Is it some mysterious substance you can point at or identify? I am suggesting that awareness is a complex form of interaction, so really what we are doing right now is interacting. I use the term interaction because it is more descriptive and tells us what is actually the cause behind or reason for having this "aware" state. Awareness is really nothing without interaction. How can you have awareness if there is no cause behind that awareness? Does it appear magically?

Okay, I get it. You like the word interaction. I like the words life and awareness, and consciousness. So you can go ahead and eliminate the words I like from your vocabulary, and I will just try to remember what it is that you are talking about. I have a question...by the way... is your mother and father still interacting in the world?

Well, whether they are dead or alive, from your perspective they would be interacting with the world. Sometimes we human beings like more detail, so we ascribe new words with deeper meaning. You can try to live your life in the abstract, but I don't see the point.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Okay, I get it. You like the word interaction. I like the words life and awareness, and consciousness. So you can go ahead and eliminate the words I like from your vocabulary, and I will just try to remember what it is that you are talking about. I have a question...by the way... is your mother and father still interacting in the world?

Well, whether they are dead or alive, from your perspective they would be interacting with the world. Sometimes we human beings like more detail, so we ascribe new words with deeper meaning. You can try to live your life in the abstract, but I don't see the point.

The point is the greater realization that those things we call life or awareness are not so mysterious or inexplicable as people...even some scientists and philosophers...would make them out to be. Consciousness is explained and life is explained through interaction. Yes, my parents are still interacting in their usual manner. At some point they along with everything else will interact differently, but interaction, because it is so fundamental never ceases...it never "dies". It is only this peculiar way in which we interact now which comes to an eventual end.

 

[ArtieE]

What animal would instinctively throw itself in front of moving vehicle to save another animal, whereas by conscience we would do that for another person.

Bees give up their lives for the hive instinctively. Vervet monkeys call out to warn the others of a predator even though it attracts attention to themselves. Vampire bats share their food with unlucky or sick roost mates. Instinctive behavior that enhances the chances of survival of the group.

 

[Marsh]

There are examples of people who raised deer or turkeys,chimps etc. from birth and later on turned on the hand that fed them.

There are numerous examples of people turning on the hand that feeds them -- so what is your point?

 

[Marsh]

What animal would instinctively throw itself in front of moving vehicle to save another animal, whereas by conscience we would do that for another person.

Examples of dogs giving their lives for a human family member are common, but you wanted an example of one animal sacrificing itself for another. Did you not think of all the examples of female animals, of numerous species, risking their lives to defend their young?

There was also an experiment at a primate research facility with monkeys. Researchers set up an experiment were by one monkey received food by pressing a bar in its cage, but when it did so the monkey in the cage next to it received a painful shock. Once making the connection between pressing the bar and delivering the shock, the first monkey stopped eating and would go days without pressing the bar so as not to cause its neighbour pain. You wanted an example of self sacrifice in the animal world -- there it is!

 

[Marsh]

According to 1 Kings 8:39,45,49 God has a specific heavenly location or dwelling place. God

You know, it occurs to me that the vast majority of gods in the past had specific locations that were thought to be their personal dwelling place. This example you give reminds me that in the earliest literature (1st & 2nd Kings, written about 586 BC) God too was thought to have his own dwelling place, just as did the other gods of antiquity. The idea that he was omnipresent only came later. There are other biblical examples for this.

 

[Marsh]

Apparently mosquitoes won't bite us - Isaiah 35 - because No one will say, " I am sick...." Isaiah 33:24

Most times mosquitoes don't make us sick when they bite us. Also, there are groups of mosquitoes that, I think, only feed on humans and so may go extinct if they stop biting us. Also, a lion eating you will not make you sick. It will just make you dead. So, "No one will say, " I am sick...." " (Isaiah 33:24), is not an injunction against mosquitoes, or anything else, not biting us. What this is, is simply another example of a devout Christian taking a single line out of context from an ancient text and attempting to form a new doctrine. It is rather like the Appalachian snake handlers taking a single biblical passage and making it into a cult practice.

I read Isaiah 33. It proclaims many things, including the lame taking part in the pillage, and the blind receiving their fair portion of the pillage (Isaiah 33: 23), but your passage appears to make clear that it applies only to those living in Jerusalem.