What is life?

[Sonofason]

I would argue that those were facts, not mere opinions.

Then by all means, provide your evidence to support your premise that these complex interactions we label as life and consciousness do not exist independently of those fundamental forces that you are aware exist.

 

[Sonofason]

See post #247

I was listening to it last night and may have heard the part my son was talking about, though it was very brief and Harris didn't sound mystified as I had expected. I haven't heard the part on Trump, so may I've not watched long enough.

Okay, I watched the video. Wow, very long. But I did enjoy watching two intelligent people having that intellectual discussion. With regard to people hearing voices, I saw nothing that would suggest that the voices that people hear are fabrications of the mind. Their brains believe they are hearing a voice. And we just don't know if they are or if they are not.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Then by all means, provide your evidence to support your premise that these complex interactions we label as life and consciousness do not exist independently of those fundamental forces that you are aware exist.

It is right in the wording.... Fundamental Forces. They are fundamental because everything that we know to exist is dependent on them in some way. Ever have you heart shocked into beating again? Indeed...we would not be interacting the way we do (living, breathing, functioning) without electromagnetism for starters.

 

[Sonofason]

It is right in the wording.... Fundamental Forces. They are fundamental because everything that we know to exist is dependent on them in some way. Ever have you heart shocked into beating again? Indeed...we would not be interacting the way we do (living, breathing, functioning) without electromagnetism for starters.

I see you are just elaborating on your opinion. Please provide evidence to support your belief.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I see you are just elaborating on your opinion. Please provide evidence to support your belief.

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162

The Fundamental
Forces of Nature


There are 4 fundamental forces that have been identified. In our present Universe they have rather different properties.

Properties of the Fundamental Forces

• The strong interaction is very strong, but very short-ranged. It acts only over ranges of order 10-13 centimeters and is responsible for holding the nuclei of atoms together. It is basically attractive, but can be effectively repulsive in some circumstances.
  
  
  
• The electromagnetic force causes electric and magnetic effects such as the repulsion between like electrical charges or the interaction of bar magnets. It is long-ranged, but much weaker than the strong force. It can be attractive or repulsive, and acts only between pieces of matter carrying electrical charge.
  
  
  
• The weak force is responsible for radioactive decay and neutrino interactions. It has a very short range and, as its name indicates, it is very weak.
  
  
  
• The gravitational force is weak, but very long ranged. Furthermore, it is always attractive, and acts between any two pieces of matter in the Universe since mass is its source.

You can see here that the Fundamental Forces are vital to our existence. Since our bodies and brains are composed of atoms, it should go without saying that we need those Fundamental Forces to function...to hold our brains together...or to even have a planet capable of harboring such interactive creatures.

 

[Runewolf1973]

The power of Christ may compel you, but it doesn't hold our brains together.

 

[Sonofason]

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162

The Fundamental
Forces of Nature


There are 4 fundamental forces that have been identified. In our present Universe they have rather different properties.

Properties of the Fundamental Forces

• 
  
  
  • The strong interaction is very strong, but very short-ranged. It acts only over ranges of order 10-13 centimeters and is responsible for holding the nuclei of atoms together. It is basically attractive, but can be effectively repulsive in some circumstances.
    
  • The electromagnetic force causes electric and magnetic effects such as the repulsion between like electrical charges or the interaction of bar magnets. It is long-ranged, but much weaker than the strong force. It can be attractive or repulsive, and acts only between pieces of matter carrying electrical charge.
    
  • The weak force is responsible for radioactive decay and neutrino interactions. It has a very short range and, as its name indicates, it is very weak.
    
  • The gravitational force is weak, but very long ranged. Furthermore, it is always attractive, and acts between any two pieces of matter in the Universe since mass is its source.

You can see here that the Fundamental Forces are vital to our existence. Since our bodies and brains are composed of atoms, it should go without saying that we need those Fundamental Forces to function...to hold our brains together...or to even have a planet capable of harboring such interactive creatures.

Well, if you're going to be taken seriously, I would expect that you need to use those forces, and cause them to produce such interaction that we deem that interaction to be life.

 

[Sonofason]

The power of Christ may compel you, but it doesn't hold our brains together.

Well, not necessarily.
"And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:17)

Please tell me what causes the weak force to exist?
What causes gravitational forces to exist?
What causes electromagnetic forces to exist?
And of course, what causes life to exist?

 

[Runewolf1973]

Well, not necessarily.
"And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:17)

Please tell me what causes the weak force to exist?
What causes gravitational forces to exist?
What causes electromagnetic forces to exist?
And of course, what causes life to exist?

It is not yet known specifically where the Fundamental Forces originate. Those complex interactions we call life come about as a result of those forces working in tandem.

What causes God to exist?

 

[Runewolf1973]

Well, if you're going to be taken seriously, I would expect that you need to use those forces, and cause them to produce such interaction that we deem that interaction to be life.

What??

 

[Sonofason]

It is not yet known specifically where the Fundamental Forces originate. Those complex interactions we call life come about as a result of those forces working in tandem.

What causes God to exist?

God has always existed. This universe with it's natural laws has not always existed.

 

[Marsh]

At birth animals come equipped with what they need, however, they do Not know about the lay out of the land, so to speak, and they can be trained to know it, etc.

You are ignoring everything I have told you. I want you to talk about the chimp that untied the boat at the dock. What is a issue is animal intelligence, particularly that of the apes. Oh, and in case you missed it we are a species of ape.

How about the pet chimp that tore up a friends face ? That chimp was a pet for years before his unprovoked attack.

What is your point? What about Cain and Abel? They were brothers! Are you forgetting that humans too are capable of extreme violence? This has no bearing on intelligence.

Uravip2me, chimps and humans both are capable of terrible violence against other species and against their own kind. You have not found an argument against intelligence among apes. In that regard we are not much different from them. Study the stories of ape intelligence. You will see I am right about this. I don't know why you are so reluctant to accept that chimps are probably no more bound by instinct than we are?

Would you agree that animals do Not have a ' spiritual ' side as people can have?

Yes, I agree, but language is required to pass on religious memes and only we are capable of that. No doubt you are familiar with the FoxP2 gene. Individuals who have a mutation in this gene have great difficulty with speech and language but otherwise are mostly of normal intelligence. If we could slip in the proper genes controlling for speech in humans, into an chimp embryo, we might find that they too are capable of speech. Wouldn't that be interesting?

Oh, and by the way, Frans de Waal writes in his book, Your Inner Ape, about chimps who do understand human language. Koko the gorilla comperends about 2000 words in spoken English, as well as understanding numerous hand signs. These apes simply don't possess the necessary biological apparatus to speak.

What animal prays or gives ' thanks to God ' before a meal, etc.

None, but neither do I. It is interesting that you would think of this. This is not something I would have given even a moments thought. People in my family no longer do this.

 

[Sonofason]

What??

We can take an object, and hold it above the ground. We can release that object and let the natural force of gravity accelerate that object to the ground. Since you claim that life is a result of these same natural forces, I expect that you ought to summon up a life form using those same fundamental forces that you're talking about. If you cannot show a life form coming into existence using those forces, I can't accept your premise that life is a result of those forces.

 

[Runewolf1973]

We can take an object, and hold it above the ground. We can release that object and let the natural force of gravity accelerate that object to the ground. Since you claim that life is a result of these same natural forces, I expect that you ought to summon up a life form using those same fundamental forces that you're talking about. If you cannot show a life form coming into existence using those forces, I can't accept your premise that life is a result of those forces.

Don't be silly.

 

[Sonofason]

Don't be silly.

So then you can't show any evidence that life is a result of only the 4 forces that you know about?

Why should I believe something without evidence?

 

[Runewolf1973]

God has always existed. This universe with it's natural laws has not always existed.

What has caused God to always exist?

 

[Runewolf1973]

So then you can't show any evidence that life is a result of only the 4 forces that you know about?

Why should I believe something without evidence?

I gave you evidence. Don't be silly.

 

[Sonofason]

I gave you evidence. Don't be silly.

You only gave me definitions of forces, that is not evidence that those forces cause life.

 

[Sonofason]

What has caused God to always exist?

God is eternal, no cause necessary. The universe is not eternal.

 

[Runewolf1973]

God is eternal, no cause necessary. The universe is not eternal.

God is a figment of people's imagination, unlike the Fundamental Forces which are proven fact. Energy can neither be created, nor destroyed, only change form. That basically means to me that the forces of nature and all this "stuff" which occupies space is eternal, it just changes form.