What is nonbinary?

[We Never Know]

I find this perspective to be curious. No offense. I just don't understand it.

Do you believe that sex reassignment surgeries actually change the sex of the person, or do you believe that it merely changes the appearance and functionality of the genitals?

I want to be clear before I continue.

It doesn't change the sex of a person, it matches their body to their mind, so to say.

Best way I can put it is like this.... A fully transitioned female in a female locker room shower would go pretty much unnoticed... where as a transgender female with male parts in a female locker room shower would not only be greatly noticed, it would more than likely offend many to say the least.

 

[Kfox]

We are not mammals and our brains are not biological. We are so special that we are not a part of nature. To claim that we are natural is abnormal and wrong.

Science disagrees with you. In this case, I go with the science.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It doesn't change the sex of a person, it matches their body to their mind, so to say.

Best way I can put it is like this.... A fully transitioned female in a female locker room shower would go pretty much unnoticed... where as a transgender female with male parts in a female locker room shower would not only be greatly noticed, it would more than likely offend many to say the least.

Yeah, but that is not objective. That is not something you see or view.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Science disagrees with you. In this case, I go with the science.

So we are mammals and we are bimodal and not binary. And that is not just us as mammals. And our brains are biological.
As least that is where science points now. Science is never absolute, it is an ongoing process and change. So old science are sometimes replaced with new science.

 

[We Never Know]

I find this perspective to be curious. No offense. I just don't understand it.

Do you believe that sex reassignment surgeries actually change the sex of the person, or do you believe that it merely changes the appearance and functionality of the genitals?

I want to be clear before I continue.

In another thread someone said where they live insurance will cover transgender surgery.

My question then is if a male identifies as female, lives as female, why not have the surgery?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

In another thread someone said where they live insurance will cover transgender surgery.

My question then is if a male identifies as female, lives as female, why not have the surgery?

That is the individual's choice.

 

[VoidCat]

In another thread someone said where they live insurance will cover transgender surgery.

My question then is if a male identifies as female, lives as female, why not have the surgery?

Surgery is invasive and painful to go through. Nobody really sees genitals. If you can relieve most the dysphoria through nonsurgical methods and your genitals dont cause that much dysphoria then it might be nice to not have surgery unless it's needed.

A lot of dysphoria can be relieved through social and legal transition rather then medical procedures


Also there's multiple surgeries a person can get not just genital surgery

Edited to add info

 

[We Never Know]

That is the individual's choice.

I agree it is but that doesn't give any understanding to why a male that identifies as female, that lives as female, wants to be addressed as a female, etc doesn't have the surgery to become more feminine(so to speak) to go with their mind and lifestyle(get rid of the family jewels so to speak)

 

[JDMS]

It doesn't change the sex of a person, it matches their body to their mind, so to say.

Best way I can put it is like this.... A fully transitioned female in a female locker room shower would go pretty much unnoticed... where as a transgender female with male parts in a female locker room shower would not only be greatly noticed, it would more than likely offend many to say the least.

I see what you mean. I agree that a sex reassignment surgery is not what would change the sex of the person transitioning, if one would want to argue their sex is changed at all. I will always consider the hormone therapy to be the biggest change, because hormone therapy changes so much about a person. Including their muscle and fat composition, their appetite, their libido, their responsiveness to drugs/medicine, etc.

For example, did you know that many trans women on estrogen cannot become erect, and those who can usually not enough to penetrate a partner? While they still experience pleasure from stimulation, they can't get hard or penetrate anymore. The opposite is true for trans men on testosterone. The clit grows (usually between 1-2 inches, but sometimes 3 inches) and begins to act as the penis would, with the person becoming erect upon arousal, morning wood, etc. Some can use their enlarged clit to penetrate partners.

Hormones are what dictate what the body part does and acts like. A sex reassignment surgery just changes what the body part looks like.

Also, I find the notion that the sex reassignment surgery changes the sex silly, because, imagine if a biologically and mentally female woman chose to get phalloplasty (construction of a penis) without breast removal or testosterone. Phalloplasty doesn't involve the removal of the ovaries/uterus, or even the vagina (that's a separate surgery that's usually done at the same time if the patient wants it, but many choose to keep it), so that theoretical person would certainly still be female.

On the contrary, a trans man with with top surgery, hormones, etc. would stand out in a woman's bathroom just as badly, if not worse, than a transgender woman without a sex reassignment surgery. Hairy chest and legs, a beard, and (for all intents and purposes) what appears to be a micropenis. I don't think most women would appreciate seeing that in their locker room.

This is why I see steps in transition as being arbitrary and pointless to obsess over. So many people focus on transgender women, and completely gloss over how powerful testosterone is in trans men. People also gloss over the fact that secondary sex characteristics are so obvious.

So what if the trans man (on testosterone without sex reassignment surgery) has no penis? He still has the body of a man in every other aspect. And the strength of one, too. In some cases he could even penetrate a woman. So clearly the "people belong in their biological sexs' bathroom unless they've had 'the surgery'" assertion is a bad one.

Whether someone has had bottom surgery or not says very little about that person.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I agree it is but that doesn't give any understanding to why a male that identifies as female, that lives as female, wants to be addressed as a female, etc doesn't have the surgery to become more feminine(so to speak) to go with their mind and lifestyle(get rid of the family jewels so to speak)

That is in the end the psychology of the law of the non-contradiction. That is an old one.
The way to work around it, works in this way. If you do something that makes sense to you and If I say I can't understand it, does that mean it doesn't make sense to you?
I understand that one in both directions.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Surgery is invasive and painful to go through. Nobody really sees genitals. If you can relieve most the dysphoria through nonsurgical methods and your genitals dont cause that much dysphoria then it might be nice to not have surgery unless it's needed.

A lot of dysphoria can be relieved through social and legal transition rather then medical procedures


Also there's multiple surgeries a person can get not just genital surgery

This. Even if you hate your genitals, the options for genital surgery really aren't all that amazing and have a high risk of very serious, scary complications. Also, it's major reconstructive surgery. That in itself is terrifying. I should have surgery on a painful bone injury in my left shoulder, but I procrastinate on that. Nevermind some genital surgery. Some of us just learn to accept that we'll never completely have the body we should. Even genital surgery doesn't fully give you all the required parts. It's mostly cosmetic.

 

[JDMS]

This. Even if you hate your genitals, the options for genital surgery really aren't all that amazing and have a high risk of very serious, scary complications. Also, it's major reconstructive surgery. That in itself is terrifying. I should have surgery on a painful bone injury in my left shoulder, but I procrastinate on that. Nevermind some genital surgery. Some of us just learn to accept that we'll never completely have the body we should. Even genital surgery doesn't fully give you all the required parts. It's mostly cosmetic.

Not to mention phalloplasty with urethral hookup can easily be a 5-stage surgery process that spans over multiple years.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

My point is; their biology has a lot to do with it.

Not always, so it's not Universal.

No, it tells (for example) men who don’t align with male stereotypes that you don’t have to fit those stereotypes in order to be a man.

You can still do that even if we accept that being a man doesn't necessarily indicate anything about your biology.

Same as what? Your claim was that only mammals are bimodal; not humans.

No, it wasn't. I never said that. I said biological sex is bimodal.

It sounds like from your description bimodal is the same as binary.

No, read my definition again. It is explicitly different to something that is binary.

 

[We Never Know]

That is in the end the psychology of the law of the non-contradiction. That is an old one.
The way to work around it, works in this way. If you do something that makes sense to you and If I say I can't understand it, does that mean it doesn't make sense to you?
I understand that one in both directions.

"If you do something that makes sense to you and If I say I can't understand it, does that mean it doesn't make sense to you?"

Right. Just because what you do makes sense to you, that doesn't mean it makes sense to me.

 

[We Never Know]

This. Even if you hate your genitals, the options for genital surgery really aren't all that amazing and have a high risk of very serious, scary complications. Also, it's major reconstructive surgery. That in itself is terrifying. I should have surgery on a painful bone injury in my left shoulder, but I procrastinate on that. Nevermind some genital surgery. Some of us just learn to accept that we'll never completely have the body we should. Even genital surgery doesn't fully give you all the required parts. It's mostly cosmetic.

Yes surgery sucks. I had one wrist, one elbow(twice), one knee rebuilt, one shoulder partially rebuilt, lost two fingers that even after two surgery's couldn't be saved, and have mesh in my abdomen. So by experience I know surgeries suck.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If they aren't fully transitioned I will generally view them as a male living as a female.

If they are fully transitioned, then hopefully they have body parts that match the mind.

It may sound cruel or mean but that's how I see it.

The way you see it is something you can't even see.

 

[Kfox]

So we are mammals and we are bimodal and not binary. And that is not just us as mammals. And our brains are biological.
As least that is where science points now. Science is never absolute, it is an ongoing process and change. So old science are sometimes replaced with new science.

Okay; so you say humans are bimodal. According to the person I was discussing with before you entered this conversation; that only means there are humans who are born intersex and that there are effeminate men. There is no dispute here; nobody in this conversation is disputing that. I’m saying just because a person is intersex or a man is effeminate doesn’t mean he is not a man

 

[Kfox]

Not always, so it's not Universal.

Okay; at first you said biology has nearly nothing to do with it; now you seem to be making the case that it’s not 100%. If not correct, at least you’re on the right track.

You can still do that even if we accept that being a man doesn't necessarily indicate anything about your biology.

No; gender is based on stereotypes; that’s why some of the most brilliant minds in the world can’t define what a man is.

No, it wasn't. I never said that. I said biological sex is bimodal.


No, read my definition again. It is explicitly different to something that is binary.

Okay; so if nobody is binary, what do people mean when they proclaim they are non-binary? Because they say this as if they are somehow an exception to some rule!

 

[crossfire]

Okay; at first you said biology has nearly nothing to do with it; now you seem to be making the case that it’s not 100%. If not correct, at least you’re on the right track.

No; gender is based on stereotypes; that’s why some of the most brilliant minds in the world can’t define what a man is.

Okay; so if nobody is binary, what do people mean when they proclaim they are non-binary? Because they say this as if they are somehow an exception to some rule!

Nonbinary means they don't conform to man/woman gender stereotype binary. They are not an exception to some rule, they just break the rules!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I agree it is but that doesn't give any understanding to why a male that identifies as female, that lives as female, wants to be addressed as a female, etc doesn't have the surgery to become more feminine(so to speak) to go with their mind and lifestyle(get rid of the family jewels so to speak)

Because only a few people see your genitals. I've talked with a lot of transwomen who prioritize a facial feminization surgery way above genitals as that's something that not only will most people see, most people will see that first.
Some people just don't want to go through with a surgery. Some don't feel the need. Some can't afford it. It's really just something where each person will give a different response.