What is nonbinary?

[SomeRandom]

Why would I do that? I know little about Scottish culture, but aren't Kilts designed for men?

Not entirely sure, tbh.
I do know that clothing is designated by culture, not biology though.
Spend enough time between cultures and you soon learn how arbitrary it all really is.
“Gender expression” is surprisingly varied. Both in the traditional sense and even among those who wish to break said rules. Indeed there are even traditional practices for “rule breakers.”
In both cultures even

(I grew up in the Indian and Australian communities, for the record.)

 

[Treasure Hunter]

@Kfox

To address some of these points, I'd like to share my perspective as a binary trans person. I can't say I understand nonbinary identities, but at least for binary identities, we usually do identify with the SEX characteristics of our target sex, rather than just the gender identity.

When I was a kid, barely acquainted with gender roles, I still knew I wanted a penis. I thought I was a boy and didn't underneath why I didn't have one. I didn't understand why I got in trouble when I went into the boy's bathroom. Etc.

Going through puberty, I had massive dysphoria about my female parts themselves, and massive dissatisfaction about not having a penis, not having facial hair, etc. In all of my dreams, my brain depicted me as a male. I even had phantom limb sensations where I would feel I had a penis even though I didn't, similarly to how a amputated person still has sensations of their missing limb.

I didn't just have dissatisfaction about not fitting into a social role of "man", I LITERALLY felt a disconnect between my brain and my physical sex ... not gender.

And I do not get gender roles, gender, and sex confused these days.

Now that I am fully transitioned and have the things I wish I was born with (besides my chromosomes, but I can't see those, and no one else can, either, so it doesn't really bother me), I feel perfectly comfortable with my partner dressing me up or putting nail polish on me. I don't quail when I enjoy stereotypically feminine hobbies. On Halloween, I even put on a woman's bunny lingerie set along with all of my cisgender male friends, because it's just a fun time to twist gender roles, and I am, in my view, male enough. No one could tell that I was born female, even wearing that. Because I am as close to male now as one can get... and thats what I care about.

To me, nothing about the hobbies I enjoy or clothes I'm willing to wear determine my identity. I don't identify with male stereotypes, I identify with the male body. Being a tomboy isn't what I needed, being as close to a biological MALE is what I needed. I didn't need to wear a masculine outfit, or drive a pickup truck... I needed a penis and balls.

That's a lot of private information, I know, but I hope this made sense about why trans people don't necessarily fall for gender roles as much as many of us identify with a biological sex.

For nonbinary people, though, it might be different.

Since you are open to share your perspective:

Do you believe the relief that you feel related to your earlier identity crisis will last for the rest of your life? I’m guessing you do but I wanted to ask.

Do you at all have access to the mental space where you realize in the future that fulfilling your gender identity only provided short term rather than lasting relief?

If you can access that mental space, how does that future version of you process your transition? Is regret possible?

These are open questions to anyone who has transitioned.

 

[JDMS]

Since you are open to share your perspective:

Do you believe the relief that you feel related to your earlier identity crisis will last for the rest of your life? I’m guessing you do but I wanted to ask.

Do you at all have access to the mental space where you realize in the future that fulfilling your gender identity only provided short term rather than lasting relief?

If you can access that mental space, how does that future version of you process your transition? Is regret possible?

These are open questions to anyone who has transitioned.

Is regret possible? I guess. But I see it just about as possible as regretting driving cars if I get into a crash. As in driving/transitioning was only logical, but of course, accidents can occur and the mind travels to strange places in crisis.

I do not anticipate becoming unsatisfied or unhappy on that account, ever. I'm looking forward to growing old as a man.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Is regret possible? I guess. But I see it just about as possible as regretting driving cars if I get into a crash. As in driving/transitioning was only logical, but of course, accidents can occur and the mind travels to strange places in crisis.

I do not anticipate becoming unsatisfied or unhappy on that account, ever. I'm looking forward to growing old as a man.

I guess what I’m trying to ask is if gender transition holds any value if it no longer relieves the pain of identity crisis that initiated it?

When a deeper identity crisis manifests as gender identity crisis, it seems practically impossible for the sufferer to decouple the two. How can they?

So what I mean to ask is:

If that pain of identity crisis returns, indicating that it is beyond mere gender identity crisis, is there any sustained value to the gender transition in the eyes of transitioners?

Because to me the whole point seems to be pain relief / quality of life, at least in the majority of stories I’ve heard. In my view, we haven’t gotten to the place of considering that the issue of identity crisis is deeper than the social identities with which it is attaching.

 

[JDMS]

I guess what I’m trying to ask is if gender transition holds any value if it no longer relieves the pain of identity crisis that initiated it?

When a deeper identity crisis manifests as gender identity crisis, it seems practically impossible for the sufferer to decouple the two. How can they?

So what I mean to ask is:

If that pain of identity crisis returns, indicating that it is beyond mere gender identity crisis, is there any sustained value to the gender transition in the eyes of transitioners?

Because to me the whole point seems to be pain relief / quality of life, at least in the majority of stories I’ve heard. In my view, we haven’t gotten to the place of considering that the issue of identity crisis is deeper than the social identities with which it is attaching.

If this is your inquiry, then I am useless to you. I have no such identity crises. I'm perfectly secure in my self perception. How am I supposed to answer for other people?

My pain was relieved and hasn't returned. That's all I can tell you.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If this is your inquiry, then I am useless to you. I have no such identity crises. I'm perfectly secure in my self perception. How am I supposed to answer for other people?

My pain was relieved and hasn't returned. That's all I can tell you.

Yup. The identity crisis for me was when I was in denial and trying to live as a man. I was miserable, to the point there are no signs of life in my eye, no spark, almoat as if I was dead but retained a living color.
But that's all in the past and today there is no crisis.

 

[Kfox]

@Kfox

To address some of these points, I'd like to share my perspective as a binary trans person. I can't say I understand nonbinary identities, but at least for binary identities, we usually do identify with the SEX characteristics of our target sex, rather than just the gender identity.

When I was a kid, barely acquainted with gender roles, I still knew I wanted a penis. I thought I was a boy and didn't underneath why I didn't have one. I didn't understand why I got in trouble when I went into the boy's bathroom. Etc.

Going through puberty, I had massive dysphoria about my female parts themselves, and massive dissatisfaction about not having a penis, not having facial hair, etc. In all of my dreams, my brain depicted me as a male. I even had phantom limb sensations where I would feel I had a penis even though I didn't, similarly to how a amputated person still has sensations of their missing limb.

I didn't just have dissatisfaction about not fitting into a social role of "man", I LITERALLY felt a disconnect between my brain and my physical sex ... not gender.

And I do not get gender roles, gender, and sex confused these days.

Now that I am fully transitioned and have the things I wish I was born with (besides my chromosomes, but I can't see those, and no one else can, either, so it doesn't really bother me), I feel perfectly comfortable with my partner dressing me up or putting nail polish on me. I don't quail when I enjoy stereotypically feminine hobbies. On Halloween, I even put on a woman's bunny lingerie set along with all of my cisgender male friends, because it's just a fun time to twist gender roles, and I am, in my view, male enough. No one could tell that I was born female, even wearing that. Because I am as close to male now as one can get... and thats what I care about.

To me, nothing about the hobbies I enjoy or clothes I'm willing to wear determine my identity. I don't identify with male stereotypes, I identify with the male body. Being a tomboy isn't what I needed, being as close to a biological MALE is what I needed. I didn't need to wear a masculine outfit, or drive a pickup truck... I needed a penis and balls.

That's a lot of private information, I know, but I hope this made sense about why trans people don't necessarily fall for gender roles as much as many of us identify with a biological sex.

For nonbinary people, though, it might be different.

Thanks for sharing. If I understand you correctly, you wanted a male body, and you got the surgery and got one. I still don’t understand the idea of “feeling like a man”, perhaps you have a subjective view of what it means to be a man, and that’s what you felt. I was making the point that we should distinguish humans according to biology rather than by gender. If this were to happen, I doubt it would have much of an effect on you because you’ve done what it takes to look like an actual man if I understand you correctly, and if you used public facilities for biological males, nobody would notice. I think my idea would have more of an effect on those who did not go through the trouble of actually looking like the other sex to the extent you did.
However if things were opposite and you were male transitioning to female, and you were an athlete, I don’t think it would be fair for you to compete against women, you should be restricted to competing with men because even though your genitalia may be female, your lung capacity, bone density, natural testosterone levels and lots of other things not changed via surgery will still be male thus giving you an advantage over the biological female athletes.
What is your view concerning this issue?

 

[JDMS]

Thanks for sharing. If I understand you correctly, you wanted a male body, and you got the surgery and got one. I still don’t understand the idea of “feeling like a man”, perhaps you have a subjective view of what it means to be a man, and that’s what you felt. I was making the point that we should distinguish humans according to biology rather than by gender. If this were to happen, I doubt it would have much of an effect on you because you’ve done what it takes to look like an actual man if I understand you correctly, and if you used public facilities for biological males, nobody would notice. I think my idea would have more of an effect on those who did not go through the trouble of actually looking like the other sex to the extent you did.

I actually don't use the terminology "feeling like a man" because I also don't really see the use of it. The closest thing I might say to that phrase is, "I feel like I should've been born a male" or "I want to be male". I say I am a man because... well... I just am one. Even as a kid I stubbornly claimed I was a boy, not that I felt like one. And maybe I needed some surgeries to get to that point, but it's always been more than a feeling to me in a way that's difficult to understand.

As for the use of facilities, it's a hard question with no easy answers as to who belongs where. I believe the majority of trans folks make good decisions about which bathrooms and changing rooms to enter, and the majority will opt for a private room if possible, but there are some outliers.

Even within the trans community, there's a lot of talk about when it's okay to start using the bathroom of your target sex. Most people agree that they only feel comfortable entering that bathroom once they start "passing" (which means strangers perceive them as their target sex if they don't know the person is transgender), because otherwise, this is actually a safety issue for trans folks as well. As you can imagine, a trans man (female to male) may be unsafe in the men's bathroom prior to passing, and in reverse, a trans woman (male to female) may be unsafe in the men's room after they start to pass.

I started using the men's room before surgeries because women were looking at me with discomfort and some were saying, "excuse me, this is the women's room" when I walked in after a few months of me being on testosterone.

Most trans people really do try to be discreet and private, in order to not make people uncomfortable. But there are of course outliers...

Edit: As for sports, I haven't got a clue! But for bathrooms, I say, if no one would suspect you without checking your bits at the door, its safer for everyone to use your target sex's bathroom.

 

[Jimmy]

"I don't really get non-binary myself"

Same as I don't really get transgenders or non-binary

Hopefully someday you will.

 

[JDMS]

Thanks for sharing. If I understand you correctly, you wanted a male body, and you got the surgery and got one. I still don’t understand the idea of “feeling like a man”, perhaps you have a subjective view of what it means to be a man, and that’s what you felt. I was making the point that we should distinguish humans according to biology rather than by gender. If this were to happen, I doubt it would have much of an effect on you because you’ve done what it takes to look like an actual man if I understand you correctly, and if you used public facilities for biological males, nobody would notice. I think my idea would have more of an effect on those who did not go through the trouble of actually looking like the other sex to the extent you did.
However if things were opposite and you were male transitioning to female, and you were an athlete, I don’t think it would be fair for you to compete against women, you should be restricted to competing with men because even though your genitalia may be female, your lung capacity, bone density, natural testosterone levels and lots of other things not changed via surgery will still be male thus giving you an advantage over the biological female athletes.
What is your view concerning this issue?

Apologies, I replied before I saw your edit.

For sports, I think it really depends on what future research shows.

For transgender women, while they take hormone replacement therapy, they actually take both estrogen and androgen blockers, which means they do not have male testosterone levels. This causes major muscle loss and some bone density loss as well. However, I am not sure things like lung capacity or height are effected enough (though, some trans women say they shrunk an inch after starting, but I'm not educated enough to say this is true) to make them equal with cisgendered women.

The problem is that we don't have enough research to say, and I wish more conclusive research would be performed in the upcoming years.

I think sports are a difficult topic, because fairness is important. We want sports to be safe and fair for everyone, cis or trans. Unfortunately, being trans complicates every facet of one's life. We already have so many things that are 2x as hard or expensive for us, and sports is just another one of those things. In my opinion, I think that for now, we should assess trans women on a case-by-case basis? Or maybe trans women just need to make the difficult choice about whether they are willing to sacrifice hormone therapy for a few years during their professional sports career, in order to compete fairly with men.

This is to say, until we have very very conclusive research about how long, if at all, a trans woman has to be on hormones to be relatively fair. I say relatively, since there are always biological advantages among individuals in sports. So ideally, it would be possible for trans women to compete in women's sports if the research showed that after "x number of years on hormones", the advantages they display are within the usual range.

It would also be nice if developing trans girl athletes had access to hormone blockers so they could prevent male puberty before it gives them most of the advantages, including height, which is irreversible. But that is another can of worms.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why would I do that? I know little about Scottish culture, but aren't Kilts designed for men?

Don't let the accents fool you. They are just plaid skirts.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

However, I am not sure things like lung capacity or height are effected enough (though, some trans women say they shrunk an inch after starting, but I'm not educated enough to say this is true) to make them equal with cisgendered women.

Once the bones are calcified hormones won't effect them.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It is normal for males to have XY chromosomes instead of XX, just like it is normal for males to have 5 fingers instead of 6, However there are cases when males will born with something other than XY chromosomes, and there are cases where males (and females) are born with 6 fingers, but this is not normal. A doctor can examine the person and explain exactly what went wrong causing this person to be born with the wrong chromosomes or 6 fingers, because these cases are abnormalities.

Yeah and they are still humans and if you cut them, they bled.
You are confusing descriptive with normative. Abnormal is not abnormal as a wrong human for its value as being human.
I am abnormal, yet I am still a human. Now if you with objective evidence, can show that I am not a human, I will listen.

 

[Kfox]

Yeah and they are still humans and if you cut them, they bled.
You are confusing descriptive with normative. Abnormal is not abnormal as a wrong human for its value as being human.
I am abnormal, yet I am still a human. Now if you with objective evidence, can show that I am not a human, I will listen.

Abnormal means not normal; that's it! It does not mean not human, less than human, inferior, or anything else. My point stands.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Abnormal means not normal; that's it! It does not mean not human, less than human, inferior, or anything else. My point stands.

So it doesn't matter as such, because we are all humans. Then why do you bring up, if it doesn't matter.

 

[Kfox]

So it doesn't matter as such, because we are all humans. Then why do you bring up, if it doesn't matter.

Because I was answering a question that I was asked.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Because I was answering a question that I was asked.

Yeah, there is variations in humans and you use the word abnormal. Okay, but that in the end tells you nothing in normative terms. It only tells you that there are some variations. Not what we ought to do about that.

 

[Kfox]

Yeah, there is variations in humans and you use the word abnormal. Okay, but that in the end tells you nothing in normative terms. It only tells you that there are some variations. Not what we ought to do about that.

So when someone is born with 6 fingers on each hand, you call that normal? That the number of fingers someone has on their hands vary from person to person?

 

[SomeRandom]

So when someone is born with 6 fingers on each hand, you call that normal? That the number of fingers someone has on their hands vary from person to person?

I had a friend in primary school (elementary and a bit of middle school for Americans) who didn’t have any tips of her fingers, due to a medical condition.
I would never call that or her abnormal, though.

Didn’t really affect her in the long run.

A variation or abnormality if you prefer is merely evolution at work, is it not?
Sometimes beneficial, sometimes detrimental, sometimes neutral.
You could argue that we’ve rendered a lot of detrimental adaptions largely neutral due to the intervention of medical science, I suppose.

 

[Kfox]

I had a friend in primary school (elementary and a bit of middle school for Americans) who didn’t have any tips of her fingers, due to a medical condition.
I would never call that or her abnormal, though.

So she wasn't born this way, this was the result of a medical affliction; is that correct? If she was born that way I would consider that condition an abnormality meaning it is not normal for humans to be born that way; if it is the result of a medical condition I would consider it a disease or whatever caused it.

Didn’t really affect her in the long run.

That's good.

A variation or abnormality if you prefer is merely evolution at work, is it not?

Evolution is a change in the gene pool due to environmental conditions. Medical conditions do not fit under the category of evolution at work