madhatter85
Transhumanist
How you do not get that we are his literal offspring from the exact passage you just quoted, I have no idea.
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What is odd about the Book of Mormon?
- Thread starter LittleNipper
- Start date
- Status
POST ONE OF TWO
The following quotes are in the prior context that it is unfair for God to create an individuals spirit out of nothing, (thus determining man’s moral characteristics), and then punishing the man for lacking a moral characteristic God himself left out of the spirit he created. The ancient christian doctrine that the spirits of men existed BEFORE creation and possessed their own choice and developed their OWN characteristics relieved early Christianity from this dilemma. It is the abandonment of the ancient doctrine and adoption of the newer doctrine which places most of modern christianity into this philosophical dilemna.
I also disagree with Little Nipper’s strained interpretation that God’s omnipresence requires that the individuals writing the Old and New Testaments interpreted their writings such that their God was a nebulous spirit that is physically present everywhere in this physical creation.
REGARDING THE ANCIENT CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE THAT THE SPIRITS WERE WITH GOD PRIOR TO CREATION OF THE EARTH
In the earliest Christian model, (that I am aware of) All spirits existed before the earth was created : There are multiple historical testimonies to the ancient Christian Doctrine that Spirits of men not only existed with God prior to creation of the earth, but as the Pistis Sophia said, they were “self willed” (and thus made choices there as well as here). It was not just a few angels “living” with God, but Enoch, in his vision, saw “a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, and innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1 En 40:1) Even by this time, some spirits had experience mortality, died and returned, thus Enoch relates :
These Spirits wanted to improve and have more knowledge and capabilities in this ancient christian model : Enoch (and the other spirits) observed others who had become wise :
Enoch continues describing the Father's plan as to how the others would gain moral knowledge first : “At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits, the Before-Time (Lit “before the beginning [or “head”] of days,”, even before the creation of the sun and the moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. He will become a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the gentiles and he will become the hope of those who are sick in their hearts......; and because they will be saved in his name and it is his good pleasure that they have life.” (1En 35:48:1-7). It is in this profound context of God’s plan that the ancient saying regarding “there is no knowledge without life, nor is there true life without knowledge” (I'm paraphasing this last quote..). Who of those spirits, seeing those who had become filled with wisdom, would not have wanted to be like them? It makes perfect sense that these spirits would not have been stagnant, but would have wanted progression. And, even Old-Testament era Enoch makes plain that it was in this pre-creation council that Jesus was Chosen by the Father to be the savior (i.e. the slamb slain from before the foundation of the world). Thus, the doctrine that these spirits wanted to be more like God, WAS the earlier teaching. For example: The Apostolic Father Ignatius taught : "Ye are imitators of God, once you took on new life" (Ign to eph 1:1). He said we are STUDENTS, learning moral principles, thus he says “I speak to you as my fellow students. For I need to be trained by you in faith, instruction, endurance, and patience. (Ign to eph 3:1)
REGARDING THE ANCIENT CHRISTIAN TEACHING THAT HEAVEN WAS A PHYSICAL PLACE
The early teachings were not only quite different than the modern teachings : Enoch reminds us that “The God of the Universe, the Holy Great One, will come forth from his dwelling, (1En 13:1). The point is that they believed that he HAD a specific dwelling. It is all quite anthropomorphic. Old Testament Enoch says that he saw the Father and The son : “And the Lord called me with his own mouth and said to me, “Come near to me, Enoch, and to my holy Word” (1 En 21:14:24) Also, “Do not fear, Enoch, righteous man, scribe of righteousness; come near to me and hear my voice.” (1 En 21:15:1) The old descriptions are not only anthropomorphic, but they are anthropomorphic in the extreme : “The Lord with his own two hands created mankind; in a facsimile of his own face, both small and great, the Lord created them. (2en 44:1-2); “And the Lord sent one of his glorious ones, the archangel gabriel...Stand up, and come with me and stand in front of the face of the lord Forever.” ...And Gabriel...put me down in front of the face of the Lord...I saw the view of the face of the Lord...Thus even I saw the face of the Lord. But the face of the lord is not to be talked about, it is so very marvelous and supremely awesome...And the Lord, with his own mouth, said to me, “Be brave Enoch! Don’t be frightened!”... (2En 22:1-6).
There was not reason for Enoch to “come and stand in front of the face of the Lord” if god was not in a “place” where Enoch could stand in front of. No reason for a face (or other descriptions of him), if he was faceless and imageless. They even called him the "perfect man". Again, whether the Christians were right or wrong, they still believed in a God who lived in a place; they believed in a God who actually HAD an image in the model of which Adam’s body was created.
POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
The following quotes are in the prior context that it is unfair for God to create an individuals spirit out of nothing, (thus determining man’s moral characteristics), and then punishing the man for lacking a moral characteristic God himself left out of the spirit he created. The ancient christian doctrine that the spirits of men existed BEFORE creation and possessed their own choice and developed their OWN characteristics relieved early Christianity from this dilemma. It is the abandonment of the ancient doctrine and adoption of the newer doctrine which places most of modern christianity into this philosophical dilemna.
I also disagree with Little Nipper’s strained interpretation that God’s omnipresence requires that the individuals writing the Old and New Testaments interpreted their writings such that their God was a nebulous spirit that is physically present everywhere in this physical creation.
REGARDING THE ANCIENT CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE THAT THE SPIRITS WERE WITH GOD PRIOR TO CREATION OF THE EARTH
In the earliest Christian model, (that I am aware of) All spirits existed before the earth was created : There are multiple historical testimonies to the ancient Christian Doctrine that Spirits of men not only existed with God prior to creation of the earth, but as the Pistis Sophia said, they were “self willed” (and thus made choices there as well as here). It was not just a few angels “living” with God, but Enoch, in his vision, saw “a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, and innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1 En 40:1) Even by this time, some spirits had experience mortality, died and returned, thus Enoch relates :
(“creation”, in this context refers to the spirit being placed into a body and gaining “life”
These Spirits wanted to improve and have more knowledge and capabilities in this ancient christian model : Enoch (and the other spirits) observed others who had become wise :
Enoch continues describing the Father's plan as to how the others would gain moral knowledge first : “At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits, the Before-Time (Lit “before the beginning [or “head”] of days,”
, even before the creation of the sun and the moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. He will become a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the gentiles and he will become the hope of those who are sick in their hearts......; and because they will be saved in his name and it is his good pleasure that they have life.” (1En 35:48:1-7). It is in this profound context of God’s plan that the ancient saying regarding “there is no knowledge without life, nor is there true life without knowledge” (I'm paraphasing this last quote..). Who of those spirits, seeing those who had become filled with wisdom, would not have wanted to be like them? It makes perfect sense that these spirits would not have been stagnant, but would have wanted progression. And, even Old-Testament era Enoch makes plain that it was in this pre-creation council that Jesus was Chosen by the Father to be the savior (i.e. the slamb slain from before the foundation of the world). Thus, the doctrine that these spirits wanted to be more like God, WAS the earlier teaching. For example: The Apostolic Father Ignatius taught : "Ye are imitators of God, once you took on new life" (Ign to eph 1:1). He said we are STUDENTS, learning moral principles, thus he says “I speak to you as my fellow students. For I need to be trained by you in faith, instruction, endurance, and patience. (Ign to eph 3:1) REGARDING THE ANCIENT CHRISTIAN TEACHING THAT HEAVEN WAS A PHYSICAL PLACE
The early teachings were not only quite different than the modern teachings : Enoch reminds us that “The God of the Universe, the Holy Great One, will come forth from his dwelling, (1En 13:1). The point is that they believed that he HAD a specific dwelling. It is all quite anthropomorphic. Old Testament Enoch says that he saw the Father and The son : “And the Lord called me with his own mouth and said to me, “Come near to me, Enoch, and to my holy Word” (1 En 21:14:24) Also, “Do not fear, Enoch, righteous man, scribe of righteousness; come near to me and hear my voice.” (1 En 21:15:1) The old descriptions are not only anthropomorphic, but they are anthropomorphic in the extreme : “The Lord with his own two hands created mankind; in a facsimile of his own face, both small and great, the Lord created them. (2en 44:1-2); “And the Lord sent one of his glorious ones, the archangel gabriel...Stand up, and come with me and stand in front of the face of the lord Forever.” ...And Gabriel...put me down in front of the face of the Lord...I saw the view of the face of the Lord...Thus even I saw the face of the Lord. But the face of the lord is not to be talked about, it is so very marvelous and supremely awesome...And the Lord, with his own mouth, said to me, “Be brave Enoch! Don’t be frightened!”... (2En 22:1-6).
There was not reason for Enoch to “come and stand in front of the face of the Lord” if god was not in a “place” where Enoch could stand in front of. No reason for a face (or other descriptions of him), if he was faceless and imageless. They even called him the "perfect man". Again, whether the Christians were right or wrong, they still believed in a God who lived in a place; they believed in a God who actually HAD an image in the model of which Adam’s body was created.
POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
POST TWO OF TWO
REGARDING THE ANCIENT VERSION OF GOD’S OMNIPRESENCE
Instead of simply assuming a personal and modern version of omnipresence is correct, one might consider ancient versions of this doctrine. As an example, consider the early Christian teachings regarding the spirit of God and his influence (as Madhatter described), or perhaps you could consider the ancient “orders” of administration of God’s creation : “The heavenly powers: what they are like and how each of their orders is occupied in the service and the plan of this world.” In the text Adam teaches his children regarding the Father’s organization. Adam says : “they are set in order one after another from the bottom, until we reach those who carry our Lord Jesus the Messiah and bear him up. The lowest order is the angels. And the plan has been revealed to it by God concerning every human being whom they watch over, because one angel from this lowest order accompanies every single human being in the world for his protection. And this is its service. 2 “The second order is the archangels. This is the service: directing everything in this creation according to the plan of God, whether powers or animals...and in short, whatever exists in this creation, besides human beings, they care for it and guide it.” (TESTAMENT OF ADAM 4:1-6) Adam continues describing celestial beings having greater and greater administrative duties in the Father's plan: Whether the early Christian were right or wrong, this is still what they taught and keep in mind that the angels ALL reported back to the Father what was happening.
Despite directing everything, the Lord God did not himself go out and do all these things. He did not need to : Enoch described “I saw him – the Antecedent of Time, while he was sitting upon the throne of his glory, the books of the living ones were open before him. “ (1En 35:47:3) And what was traditionally IN those books? All the deeds of mankind. There are MANY ways that God was able to say that “There is nothing in heaven above or deep within the earth concealed from me. “ (264 3 en 11:2-3) For example, consider the ancient doctrine regarding Enoch’s description of “The Heavenly Curtain surrounding the throne of God upon which all human history is shown.., it shows “each generation and it’s potentiates, ...and I saw Adam and his generation, their deeds and their thoughts; Noah and the generation of the flood, their deeds and their thoughts;....Abraham and his generation, their deeds and their thoughts......the teachers of the children in Israel and their generations, their deeds and their acts; the teachers of the children of the gentiles and their generations, their deeds and their acts;...all the prophets of Israel and their generations, their deeds and their acts; all the prophets of the gentiles and their generations, their deeds and their acts...And I saw: the Messiah the son of Joseph and his generation, and all that they will do to the gentiles..... (3 en 45) Enoch testified that God saw all of history. He saw, not only the acts of all of Israel’s prophets and all of the acts of the “prophets of the gentiles and their generations, their deeds and their acts...” Everything. If he sees everything in this way, directs everything by these means, then the ancients were correct that he was omnipresent in this manner rather than some other manner.
clear
twtweieill
REGARDING THE ANCIENT VERSION OF GOD’S OMNIPRESENCE
Instead of simply assuming a personal and modern version of omnipresence is correct, one might consider ancient versions of this doctrine. As an example, consider the early Christian teachings regarding the spirit of God and his influence (as Madhatter described), or perhaps you could consider the ancient “orders” of administration of God’s creation : “The heavenly powers: what they are like and how each of their orders is occupied in the service and the plan of this world.” In the text Adam teaches his children regarding the Father’s organization. Adam says : “they are set in order one after another from the bottom, until we reach those who carry our Lord Jesus the Messiah and bear him up. The lowest order is the angels. And the plan has been revealed to it by God concerning every human being whom they watch over, because one angel from this lowest order accompanies every single human being in the world for his protection. And this is its service. 2 “The second order is the archangels. This is the service: directing everything in this creation according to the plan of God, whether powers or animals...and in short, whatever exists in this creation, besides human beings, they care for it and guide it.” (TESTAMENT OF ADAM 4:1-6) Adam continues describing celestial beings having greater and greater administrative duties in the Father's plan: Whether the early Christian were right or wrong, this is still what they taught and keep in mind that the angels ALL reported back to the Father what was happening.
Despite directing everything, the Lord God did not himself go out and do all these things. He did not need to : Enoch described “I saw him – the Antecedent of Time, while he was sitting upon the throne of his glory, the books of the living ones were open before him. “ (1En 35:47:3) And what was traditionally IN those books? All the deeds of mankind. There are MANY ways that God was able to say that “There is nothing in heaven above or deep within the earth concealed from me. “ (264 3 en 11:2-3) For example, consider the ancient doctrine regarding Enoch’s description of “The Heavenly Curtain surrounding the throne of God upon which all human history is shown.., it shows “each generation and it’s potentiates, ...and I saw Adam and his generation, their deeds and their thoughts; Noah and the generation of the flood, their deeds and their thoughts;....Abraham and his generation, their deeds and their thoughts......the teachers of the children in Israel and their generations, their deeds and their acts; the teachers of the children of the gentiles and their generations, their deeds and their acts;...all the prophets of Israel and their generations, their deeds and their acts; all the prophets of the gentiles and their generations, their deeds and their acts...And I saw: the Messiah the son of Joseph and his generation, and all that they will do to the gentiles..... (3 en 45) Enoch testified that God saw all of history. He saw, not only the acts of all of Israel’s prophets and all of the acts of the “prophets of the gentiles and their generations, their deeds and their acts...” Everything. If he sees everything in this way, directs everything by these means, then the ancients were correct that he was omnipresent in this manner rather than some other manner.
clear
twtweieill
Humanistheart
Well-Known Member
From that passage I don't see how people who think they are god's offspring get the idea that animals are not god's literal offspring as well.
Humanistheart
Well-Known Member
Clear, as in other posts, I invite you to use a relevant source.
If you've been following this thread at all you'd know the BoM is already well discredited.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Uh huh. So if a person has 100% of the fruits, and does not place their faith and trust in Jesus, are they a True Believer?
And if a person does place their faith and trust in Jesus, but lacks some fruits, are they a True Believer?
A simple yes or not would help. Thanks.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Spare us LN. We've all read the Bible, and most of us know it better than you. If you have a point to make, feel free, and use Bible verses as needed to support your point. Otherwise, we're not terribly interested in long excerpts from your personal holy book, thanks.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Not to mention there's been no finding of said people to substantiate this claim...so we must conclude, just like that which is offered by bible apologist, what is said is not to be taken literally.
I think the way it works is that if science shows a given passage to be utterly impossible, it must therefore be allegory.
Humanistheart
Well-Known Member
Which might be fine if people are looking for some folk stories with 'good values' at their route, but since the BoM is a corner stone of an entire religion, weather it's fiction or not becomes cruxial. You're basically admitting the BoM is fiction, and thus smith was a con-artist, You have no basis then to think your god's real, there's any heaven, or that any of the things lds do like 'blessings' and baptism's have any use or meaning what so ever.
Humanistheart
Well-Known Member
That seems to be the way it goes, yes.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
we seem to have grown a new crop of LDS bashers...
they spring up like weeds at every season of the year.
Unfortunately each crop is no more smart than the last.
they spring up like weeds at every season of the year.
Unfortunately each crop is no more smart than the last.
Humanistheart
Well-Known Member
So says the individual who offers no evidence, support, or even thought in his post. Pointing out truth is not bashing, unlike what you're doing.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Good, because it's not. But if it's not history, and it's not literature, as you keep comparing it to, what the heck is it?
I beg to differ.
But it doesn't bring a single other person to Christ.
But the Book of Mormon, by name, claims to be a book written by Mormon upon plates taken from Nephi, and handed down to his son, Moroni. Its chapters are named after their authors, specific Nephites. Large parts are written as first person narratives as experienced by these authors. So if there's no Nephites and no Mormon, who the heck is Moroni?
The angel Moroni is part of the whole story you're calling fictional.
Why do you keep comparing the BoM to the Bible? They're both fiction, both wrong, both full of errors. At least the Bible has the excuse of being really old, but I wouldn't base my life on either of them.
I haven't gotten any other criteria from you.
Not my point. According to LDS theology, there are prophets who receive guidance from God. Those prophets say the BoM is fact, not fiction. So if you're right, that's another huge chunk of your religion you would have to discard.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Nah, I've been at it for years.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Don't be too hard on him. He's actually giving out sort of a compliment. But I would argue that we aren't bashing....only debating.....There's a difference.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
No it doesn't. The quran comes even closer to reinforcing the bible and vice versa......but I would put trust in either of these books as they have both been shown to be incorrect in various areas.....
And yet NO LDS has ever been able to validate the claims made by the book....Will you be the first?
LittleNipper
Well-Known Member
There are some christians who lack some fruit. They are still immature. But since the HOLY SPIRIT brings the fruits and the HOLY SPIRIT comes only after one fully accepts the LORD JESUS CHRIST, people without CHRIST are without hope.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
And who has been able to validate the claims made in the Bible or Koran.
LittleNipper
Well-Known Member
The existance of the Jew validates the Bible.
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