What is sin?

[jaareshiah]

Wow.
Nice sermon.

So to sum it all it up into a Reader's Digest form, you are basically saying that sin is going against the will/wishes of your chosen deity, right?


We might have to wait for other members to wake up.
But it was a really nice sermon.

It is more than just my "chosen deity". Rather, the Bible provides both the name of the true God and his everlasting purpose for the earth. At Proverbs 3:19, 20, it says that "Jehovah himself in wisdom founded the earth. He solidly fixed the heavens in discernment. By his knowledge the watery deeps themselves were split apart, and the cloudy skies keep dripping down light rain." Hence, Jehovah God is the maker of the universe, who by his "wisdom founded the earth" and of man.(Gen 2:7)

Jeremiah says that "he is the Maker of the earth by his power, the One firmly establishing the productive land by his wisdom, and the One who by his understanding stretched out the heavens."(Jer 51:15) In reality, few, such as yourself, ever give real consideration as to whether there is a God. However, the evidence is all around us. If you were to see a new car that is alive with a vast array of amenities, you are perhaps dazzled, and are aware that this car has a maker, a designer, a manufacturer. Yet, of the grander scale of things, the universe and of our small home, the earth, there is a complete disregard as to it being a product of a Designer. Why ?

Simply put, these do not wish to be accountable to anyone, but rather wish to continue with their independent thinking, ' making no search for God '.(Ps 10:4) Where does this thinking lead ? Not to life without end on a paradise earth, but rather to death. Once dead, no one can bring themselves back to life. Only the one true God, Jehovah, has that power.(Job 14:13-15)

It is wisdom on a person's part to realize this truth: "Better is it to go to the house of mourning than to go to the banquet house, because that is the end of all mankind; and the one alive should take it to his heart."(Ec 7:2) Death is before all of us, but living forever is also placed before any who wants to look forward to "the real life."(1 Tim 6:19) A person can perhaps live for 70 or 80 years (Ps 90:10), or they can look forward to life without end on the earth, "in the abundance of peace."(Ps 37:11) Which is the wiser choice ?

 

[McBell]

It is more than just my "chosen deity". Rather, the Bible provides both the name of the true God and his everlasting purpose for the earth. At Proverbs 3:19, 20, it says that "Jehovah himself in wisdom founded the earth. He solidly fixed the heavens in discernment. By his knowledge the watery deeps themselves were split apart, and the cloudy skies keep dripping down light rain." Hence, Jehovah God is the maker of the universe, who by his "wisdom founded the earth" and of man.(Gen 2:7)

So claims his followers.
But then, the followers of other gods make the same claim.

Sorry, you will need more than just the words of the followers.

In reality, few, such as yourself, ever give real consideration as to whether there is a God.

And you base this unsubstantiated claim on what, exactly?
You know absolutely nothing about the consideration I have, have not, may have, may not have given.

However, the evidence is all around us. If you were to see a new car that is alive with a vast array of amenities, you are perhaps dazzled, and are aware that this car has a maker, a designer, a manufacturer. Yet, of the grander scale of things, the universe and of our small home, the earth, there is a complete disregard as to it being a product of a Designer. Why ?

Other than your opinion and the opinions of those who, like you, have to put god somewhere, what evidence do you have that the universe was 'created'?

Simply put, these do not wish to be accountable to anyone, but rather wish to continue with their independent thinking, ' making no search for God '.(Ps 10:4) Where does this thinking lead ? Not to life without end on a paradise earth, but rather to death. Once dead, no one can bring themselves back to life. Only the one true God, Jehovah, has that power.(Job 14:13-15)

Wow.
You are just plumb full of unsubstantiated claims, bold faced assertions and dictating to others what they think and believe.

How about you support your claims?

It is wisdom on a person's part to realize this truth: "Better is it to go to the house of mourning than to go to the banquet house, because that is the end of all mankind; and the one alive should take it to his heart."(Ec 7:2) Death is before all of us, but living forever is also placed before any who wants to look forward to "the real life."(1 Tim 6:19) A person can perhaps live for 70 or 80 years (Ps 90:10), or they can look forward to life without end on the earth, "in the abundance of peace."(Ps 37:11) Which is the wiser choice ?

*sigh*
Nothing but more unsubstantiated claims.

I understand you feel the need to preach, but how about you stop preaching long enough to support your claims?

 

[jaareshiah]

Mestemia,

Here are some examples that give evidence of a Creator, though I realize that probably you will discount this. The real issue is lack of genuine love, the evident demonstration that there is a Designer, for independent thinking is at an all-time high. Please consider:

(1) Our hands. The human hand has a particularly refined sense of touch. According to Smithsonian magazine, researchers found that our hand can detect a dot just three microns (a micron is one thousandth of a millimeter) high. (A human hair has a diameter of 50 to 100 microns.) However, by “using a texture rather than a dot, the researchers found the hand can detect roughness just 75 nanometers high”—a nanometer being one thousandth of a micron ! Such remarkable sensitivity is attributed to about 2,000 touch receptors in each fingertip.

Also, the remarkable dexterity of our hands, with joints at the right locations for easy use and nimbleness. If our thumb were removed or non-existent, then try picking up anything, such as a needle, or throwing a ball, climbing a ladder or any number of things that we take for granted. Just an accident or intentional design ?

(2) A protein. Evolution has taught that all life came about randomly. Is it that easy ? Though there are over 100 amino acids, only 20 are needed for proteins that support life. There are both right-handed and left-handed amino acids, but only left-handed ones are used in making a protein. If one were to put a scoop into the over 100 amino acids, the odds are that there would be about half right-handed and half left-handed.

What chance is there that the correct amino acids would come together to form a protein molecule ? It could be likened to having a big, thoroughly mixed pile containing equal numbers of red beans and white beans. There are also over 100 different varieties of beans. Now, if you plunged a scoop into this pile, what do you think you would get ? To get the beans that represent the basic components of a protein, you would have to scoop up only red ones—no white ones at all! Also, your scoop must contain only 20 varieties of the red beans, and each one must be in a specific, preassigned place in the scoop. In the world of protein, a single mistake in any one of these requirements would cause the protein that is produced to fail to function properly. Would any amount of stirring and scooping in our hypothetical bean pile have given the right combination ? No.

What is the chance of even a simple protein molecule forming at random in an organic soup ? Evolutionists acknowledge it to be only one in 10113. But any event that has one chance in just 1050 is dismissed by mathematicians as never happening. An idea of the odds, or probability, involved is seen in the fact that the number 10113 is larger than the estimated total number of all the atoms in the universe ! So, is a protein accident or product of a designer ?

(3) Let's go another step forward on this. Consider this: Some proteins serve as structural materials and others as enzymes. The latter speed up needed chemical reactions in the cell. Without such help, the cell would die. Not just a few, but 2,000 proteins serving as enzymes are needed for the cell’s activity. What are the chances of obtaining all of these at random? One chance in 1040,000, according to evolutionist Fred Hoyle.(Evolution From Space, pg 24, 1981)

(4) Let's move forward even more. More difficult to obtain than these enzymes are nucleotides, the structural units of DNA, which bears the genetic code. Five histones are involved in DNA, which package and order the DNA into structural units called nucleosomes. The chance of forming even the simplest of these histones is said to be one in 20100—another huge number “larger than the total of all the atoms in all the stars and galaxies visible in the largest astronomical telescopes.”.(Evolution From Space, pg 27, 1981)

What are the odds, if all the different parts for a particular brand of automobile were laid out on a concrete floor of assembling themselves into a complete car ? Zero. Yet, if we were to a step further, that for all the different components of an automobile had to come about at random, and then assemble themselves into full functioning vehicle, would it happen ? No. These all required a designer and then for them to be assembled into working model by someone. Then, what about all the components for life ?

(5) Of our Milky Way Galaxy, there are about 100 billion stars. If a person were to try to count them at a page per second, it would take over 3000 years. If this were to done within a lifetime, it would require examining them at over 50 pages per second. And yet there are hundreds of billions of galaxies with perhaps hundreds of billions of stars within them. Is it reasonable that the universe with all these galaxies came about by accident ? Yet there is more. Even on the colossal scale of the universe, the galaxies are elegantly organized, such as in super clusters. The Milky Way Galaxy is part of one super cluster of about 20 galaxies. Some have likened it to a choreography of a ballet dancer.

(6) The distance between stars is mind-boggling. For example, if our sun were equal to the size of soccer ball in New York city, our closest neighbor star, Proxima Centauri, would be the size of a golf ball some 4000 miles away, in Paris, France, or some 25 trillion miles(4.22 light years). Yet, the distance of the universe is beyond our real comprehension. Our closest neighbor galaxy is Andromeda, approximately 2.5 million light years away. And yet all the galaxies are in motion, moving apart at about half the speed of light, in eloquent precision. What keeps them in their precise orbits ? Is this just accidental or intentional design ?

(7) Water. The giant North American redwood trees can grow to the height of over 300 feet. How does water reach all the way to the top without a pump ? By a hydrogen bond. Water is a polar molecule, that is one side has a negative charge and the other side a positive charge. Water molecules form hydrogen bonds with other molecules within the tree, thus allowing water to be drawn up the tree. The forces of cohesion and adhesion allow the water to be pulled up all the way to the top of the tallest trees. Accident or product of a designer ?

As a powerful solvent, water breaks down salts, minerals and other nutrients. As a chemical reactant, it is essential in the digestion of our foods. Even proteins, the fundamental building blocks of our cells, has a special relationship with water. To function correctly, a protein must be folded into a specific three-dimensional shape. And this crucial folding process is guided by subtle interactions between the protein and water. Accident or the intent of a loving Maker ?

Too, as water gets colder, it condenses and gets heavier. However, upon reaching the freezing point, it suddenly expands and becomes lighter, floating as ice on top of water. Why is this important ? Because, if water were to freeze and sink to the bottom, then life in those areas would die. Instead, life continues and produces, thus the making the earth abound with life even in the coldest areas on earth, as in the Arctics. Accidental or intentional design ?

(8) Harmony. Why is there harmony among all the differing elements of life ? Creating a set a blueprints for the construction of a house requires that the architect consider each individual detail and that it harmonizes with the overall design of the house. What about life ? Why is there harmony throughout, such as symbioses and other interactions ? For example, many flowering plants produce nectar, which serves as a food for insects and other animals. But the benefit is not one-sided. As bees drink nectar from a flower, they are dusted with tiny grains of pollen and carry these to flowers of the same kind, thus allowing the flowers to reproduce. Accident or intentional design ?

In the oceans, there are cleaning stations, whereby smaller fish "clean" larger fish. Anywhere else, the larger fish might eat these smaller cleaner fish, but not here. Why ? Accident or design ? These are just small samples of the different elements and arrangements needed for life. Hence, is life just an accident or intentional design ?

 

[AfterGlow]

To me sin is the tainting of the human mind by negative thoughts and emotions. I believe humans beings have the capacity to reach a state of mental existence that is purely wise, compassionate and innocent of dark elements.
Anger, hate, envy, greed, selfishness, wilful ignorance, self-rightousness, intolerance... Those are the true sins IMHO.

 

[Tom Terrific]

In Western civilization, our conceptualizations of "sin" are largely Judeo-Christian, whether we are adherents of an Abrahamic religion or not.

I am a Witch. Many people who subscribe to a religion like mine will tell you that they don't believe in "sin"; but, at least from a practical point of view, few will say they don't believe in right and wrong. They are hesitant to subscribe to the idea of a moral absolute, because they are shy of having an objective set of rules imposed upon them; but in terms of how they live their lives, they are not unloving or "bad" people.

I think most Christians conceptualize sin in terms of giving offense to God -- which, according to their beliefs, it does; but is this the best way even for them to look at it? Only they can say; but in my own reflections I have stumbled on a way of looking at sin that I find applies in both my own religion and in theirs, as well as I understand it.

As I recall, the koine (NT Greek) for sin is "hamartia," which means "missing the mark" -- the image being one of an arrow missing its target. This is a judgment-neutral image, and I find that very useful indeed. If we believe -- as many non-Christians do, as well as Christians -- that we are here on earth for a purpose, then sin can be thought of as a quality of action, approach to life, and even a state of being that "misses the mark," i.e., frustrates rather than furthers our purpose for being here.

Many Pagans would find nothing in this definition to object to; yet it also comports with Christian orthodoxy, as I understand it. Christians, of course, add the notions of guilt and judgment to sin, and those are something else; but the basic idea of "missing the mark" is one that I think anyone who believes that life has meaning would find a familiar one -- or would do, once it were explained to them properly.

 

[McBell]

Mestemia,

Here are some examples that give evidence of a Creator, though I realize that probably you will discount this. The real issue is lack of genuine love, the evident demonstration that there is a Designer, for independent thinking is at an all-time high. Please consider:

(1) Our hands. The human hand has a particularly refined sense of touch. According to Smithsonian magazine, researchers found that our hand can detect a dot just three microns (a micron is one thousandth of a millimeter) high. (A human hair has a diameter of 50 to 100 microns.) However, by “using a texture rather than a dot, the researchers found the hand can detect roughness just 75 nanometers high”—a nanometer being one thousandth of a micron ! Such remarkable sensitivity is attributed to about 2,000 touch receptors in each fingertip.

Also, the remarkable dexterity of our hands, with joints at the right locations for easy use and nimbleness. If our thumb were removed or non-existent, then try picking up anything, such as a needle, or throwing a ball, climbing a ladder or any number of things that we take for granted. Just an accident or intentional design ?

(2) A protein. Evolution has taught that all life came about randomly. Is it that easy ? Though there are over 100 amino acids, only 20 are needed for proteins that support life. There are both right-handed and left-handed amino acids, but only left-handed ones are used in making a protein. If one were to put a scoop into the over 100 amino acids, the odds are that there would be about half right-handed and half left-handed.

What chance is there that the correct amino acids would come together to form a protein molecule ? It could be likened to having a big, thoroughly mixed pile containing equal numbers of red beans and white beans. There are also over 100 different varieties of beans. Now, if you plunged a scoop into this pile, what do you think you would get ? To get the beans that represent the basic components of a protein, you would have to scoop up only red ones—no white ones at all! Also, your scoop must contain only 20 varieties of the red beans, and each one must be in a specific, preassigned place in the scoop. In the world of protein, a single mistake in any one of these requirements would cause the protein that is produced to fail to function properly. Would any amount of stirring and scooping in our hypothetical bean pile have given the right combination ? No.

What is the chance of even a simple protein molecule forming at random in an organic soup ? Evolutionists acknowledge it to be only one in 10113. But any event that has one chance in just 1050 is dismissed by mathematicians as never happening. An idea of the odds, or probability, involved is seen in the fact that the number 10113 is larger than the estimated total number of all the atoms in the universe ! So, is a protein accident or product of a designer ?

(3) Let's go another step forward on this. Consider this: Some proteins serve as structural materials and others as enzymes. The latter speed up needed chemical reactions in the cell. Without such help, the cell would die. Not just a few, but 2,000 proteins serving as enzymes are needed for the cell’s activity. What are the chances of obtaining all of these at random? One chance in 1040,000, according to evolutionist Fred Hoyle.(Evolution From Space, pg 24, 1981)

(4) Let's move forward even more. More difficult to obtain than these enzymes are nucleotides, the structural units of DNA, which bears the genetic code. Five histones are involved in DNA, which package and order the DNA into structural units called nucleosomes. The chance of forming even the simplest of these histones is said to be one in 20100—another huge number “larger than the total of all the atoms in all the stars and galaxies visible in the largest astronomical telescopes.”.(Evolution From Space, pg 27, 1981)

What are the odds, if all the different parts for a particular brand of automobile were laid out on a concrete floor of assembling themselves into a complete car ? Zero. Yet, if we were to a step further, that for all the different components of an automobile had to come about at random, and then assemble themselves into full functioning vehicle, would it happen ? No. These all required a designer and then for them to be assembled into working model by someone. Then, what about all the components for life ?

(5) Of our Milky Way Galaxy, there are about 100 billion stars. If a person were to try to count them at a page per second, it would take over 3000 years. If this were to done within a lifetime, it would require examining them at over 50 pages per second. And yet there are hundreds of billions of galaxies with perhaps hundreds of billions of stars within them. Is it reasonable that the universe with all these galaxies came about by accident ? Yet there is more. Even on the colossal scale of the universe, the galaxies are elegantly organized, such as in super clusters. The Milky Way Galaxy is part of one super cluster of about 20 galaxies. Some have likened it to a choreography of a ballet dancer.

(6) The distance between stars is mind-boggling. For example, if our sun were equal to the size of soccer ball in New York city, our closest neighbor star, Proxima Centauri, would be the size of a golf ball some 4000 miles away, in Paris, France, or some 25 trillion miles(4.22 light years). Yet, the distance of the universe is beyond our real comprehension. Our closest neighbor galaxy is Andromeda, approximately 2.5 million light years away. And yet all the galaxies are in motion, moving apart at about half the speed of light, in eloquent precision. What keeps them in their precise orbits ? Is this just accidental or intentional design ?

(7) Water. The giant North American redwood trees can grow to the height of over 300 feet. How does water reach all the way to the top without a pump ? By a hydrogen bond. Water is a polar molecule, that is one side has a negative charge and the other side a positive charge. Water molecules form hydrogen bonds with other molecules within the tree, thus allowing water to be drawn up the tree. The forces of cohesion and adhesion allow the water to be pulled up all the way to the top of the tallest trees. Accident or product of a designer ?

As a powerful solvent, water breaks down salts, minerals and other nutrients. As a chemical reactant, it is essential in the digestion of our foods. Even proteins, the fundamental building blocks of our cells, has a special relationship with water. To function correctly, a protein must be folded into a specific three-dimensional shape. And this crucial folding process is guided by subtle interactions between the protein and water. Accident or the intent of a loving Maker ?

Too, as water gets colder, it condenses and gets heavier. However, upon reaching the freezing point, it suddenly expands and becomes lighter, floating as ice on top of water. Why is this important ? Because, if water were to freeze and sink to the bottom, then life in those areas would die. Instead, life continues and produces, thus the making the earth abound with life even in the coldest areas on earth, as in the Arctics. Accidental or intentional design ?

(8) Harmony. Why is there harmony among all the differing elements of life ? Creating a set a blueprints for the construction of a house requires that the architect consider each individual detail and that it harmonizes with the overall design of the house. What about life ? Why is there harmony throughout, such as symbioses and other interactions ? For example, many flowering plants produce nectar, which serves as a food for insects and other animals. But the benefit is not one-sided. As bees drink nectar from a flower, they are dusted with tiny grains of pollen and carry these to flowers of the same kind, thus allowing the flowers to reproduce. Accident or intentional design ?

In the oceans, there are cleaning stations, whereby smaller fish "clean" larger fish. Anywhere else, the larger fish might eat these smaller cleaner fish, but not here. Why ? Accident or design ? These are just small samples of the different elements and arrangements needed for life. Hence, is life just an accident or intentional design ?

See what I mean?
You have not presented anything with logic.
In fact, each of your "arguments" is nothing more than one appeal to incredulity after another.

 

[jaareshiah]

See what I mean?
You have not presented anything with logic.
In fact, each of your "arguments" is nothing more than one appeal to incredulity after another.

That is logic for those who are reasonable. In a court case, a judge who stands up for justice, sees that sound evidence is brought forth and then renders his judgment. You are among a growing number of individuals that wish to cast aside all evidence in favor of self-expression, unwilling to accept sound confirmation. I realized that no amount of evidence would probably have any effect, but presented it anyway.

The bottom line is that only those who are reasonable and "meek", those who are teachable by God, those who examine the evidence without bias, will live on the earth forever.(Ps 37:11, 29) All others will disappear forever, for Proverbs 2:21, 22 says: "For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it."

 

[McBell]

That is logic for those who are reasonable. In a court case, a judge who stands up for justice, sees that sound evidence is brought forth and then renders his judgment. You are among a growing number of individuals that wish to cast aside all evidence in favor of self-expression, unwilling to accept sound confirmation. I realized that no amount of evidence would probably have any effect, but presented it anyway.

The bottom line is that only those who are reasonable and "meek", those who are teachable by God, those who examine the evidence without bias, will live on the earth forever.(Ps 37:11, 29) All others will disappear forever, for Proverbs 2:21, 22 says: "For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it."

You have not presented any sound evidence.
The closest you have come thus far isn't even circumstantial evidence.
You have presented nothing but wild conjecture and meaningless propaganda.

In short, you are trying desperately to get your choir pleasing sermons to work with those outside your choir.
Thus far you have failed.

 

[waitasec]

You are among a growing number of individuals that wish to cast aside all evidence in favor of self-expression, unwilling to accept sound confirmation. I realized that no amount of evidence would probably have any effect, but presented it anyway.

ahhh, faith, believing in things unseen, is not evidence or sound confirmation
that is why it is called faith...

 

[jaareshiah]

You have not presented any sound evidence.
The closest you have come thus far isn't even circumstantial evidence.
You have presented nothing but wild conjecture and meaningless propaganda.

In short, you are trying desperately to get your choir pleasing sermons to work with those outside your choir.
Thus far you have failed.

Mestmia,

Do you believe that black holes exist ? It has been accepted by the scientific community that black holes are real, though not seen. Only by deduction has their reality come to light. The evidence is the massive amounts of material from a star disappearing without seeable cause. Supermassive black holes with the mass of millions of stars are thought to lie at the center of most large galaxies. The evidence comes from optical and radio observations which show a sharp rise in the velocities of stars or gas clouds orbiting the centers of galaxies.(from Chandra X-Ray Observatory website) Only by deduction of the evidence can these be "seen". As to how these originate is still unanswered.

Or of an elementary particle that travels close to the speed of light - a neutrino. It is electrically neutral, and is able to pass through ordinary matter unaffected. Yet, it cannot be seen, for it has nonzero rest mass. Only by deducing it's behavior characteristics is this particle able to be "seen".

One of the most renown atheists of the 20th century, Antony Flew (Feb 11, 1923 - April 8, 2010), felt as you do. He argued "that one should presuppose atheism until empirical evidence of a God surfaces", having signed the Humanist Manifesto III (originally created in 1933). However, he did a 180 degree turn about, and came to recognize that there is a God in 2004.

What made Flew change his mind? In a word, science. He became convinced that the universe, the laws of nature, and life itself could not have arisen merely by chance. He asked: "The philosophical question that has not been answered in origin-of-life studies is this: How can a universe of mindless matter produce beings with intrinsic ends, self-replication capabilities, and "coded chemistry"? Here we are not dealing with biology, but an entirely different category of problem."(There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind, 2007)

Antony Flew also said that belief in God was the result of his "growing empathy with the insight of Einstein and other noted scientists that there had to be an Intelligence behind the integrated complexity of the physical Universe" and "my own insight that the integrated complexity of life itself – which is far more complex than the physical Universe – can only be explained in terms of an Intelligent Source."(2007 interview with Benjamin Wiker)

He further wrote: “The important point is not merely that there are regularities in nature, but that these regularities are mathematically precise, universal, and ‘tied together.’ Einstein spoke of them as ‘reason incarnate.’ The question we should ask is how nature came packaged in this fashion. This is certainly the question that scientists from Newton to Einstein to Heisenberg have asked—and answered. Their answer was the Mind of God.”

Physicist and author Paul Davies (theoretical physicist and cosmologist) points out that science does a wonderful job of explaining physical phenomena such as rain. But he says: “When it comes to . . . questions such as ‘Why are there laws of nature?’ the situation is less clear. These sorts of questions are not much affected by specific scientific discoveries: many of the really big questions have remained unchanged since the birth of civilization and still vex us today.”

Keep in mind, too, that life is not just an assortment of chemical elements. Rather, it is based on an extremely sophisticated form of information, which is encoded in DNA. Hence, when we talk about the origin of life, we are also talking about the origin of biological information. What is the only source of information that we know of ? In a word, intelligence. Would chance accidents produce complex information, such as a computer program or software, an algebraic formula, an encyclopedia, or even a recipe for a cake ? No. Yet, when it comes to sophistication and efficiency, none of these even begin to compare with the information stored in the genetic code of living organisms, in the DNA.

There are myriad chemical reactions that need to be precisely staged to form DNA, the building block of life. Three decades ago Dr. Frank Salisbury of Utah State University, U.S.A., calculated the odds of the spontaneous formation of a basic DNA molecule essential for the appearance of life. The calculations revealed the probability to be so tiny that it is considered mathematically impossible. He assumed that this molecule had the opportunity to develop by natural chemical reactions on 100,000,000,000,000,000,000 (1020) “hospitable” planets over a period of four billion years. What are the chances that a single DNA molecule formed? By his estimate, one in 10415 !

Hence, only by carefully and seriously examining the evidence that surrounds all of us, without bias or prejudice, can a person "see" the reality of a Creator. A person must be reasonable, not "set in their ways."

 

[waitasec]

Mestmia,

Do you believe that black holes exist ? It has been accepted by the scientific community that black holes are real, though not seen. Only by deduction has their reality come to light. The evidence is the massive amounts of material from a star disappearing without seeable cause. Supermassive black holes with the mass of millions of stars are thought to lie at the center of most large galaxies. The evidence comes from optical and radio observations which show a sharp rise in the velocities of stars or gas clouds orbiting the centers of galaxies.(from Chandra X-Ray Observatory website) Only by deduction of the evidence can these be "seen". As to how these originate is still unanswered.

Or of an elementary particle that travels close to the speed of light - a neutrino. It is electrically neutral, and is able to pass through ordinary matter unaffected. Yet, it cannot be seen, for it has nonzero rest mass. Only by deducing it's behavior characteristics is this particle able to be "seen".

One of the most renown atheists of the 20th century, Antony Flew (Feb 11, 1923 - April 8, 2010), felt as you do. He argued "that one should presuppose atheism until empirical evidence of a God surfaces", having signed the Humanist Manifesto III (originally created in 1933). However, he did a 180 degree turn about, and came to recognize that there is a God in 2004.

What made Flew change his mind? In a word, science. He became convinced that the universe, the laws of nature, and life itself could not have arisen merely by chance. He asked: "The philosophical question that has not been answered in origin-of-life studies is this: How can a universe of mindless matter produce beings with intrinsic ends, self-replication capabilities, and "coded chemistry"? Here we are not dealing with biology, but an entirely different category of problem."(There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind, 2007)

Antony Flew also said that belief in God was the result of his "growing empathy with the insight of Einstein and other noted scientists that there had to be an Intelligence behind the integrated complexity of the physical Universe" and "my own insight that the integrated complexity of life itself – which is far more complex than the physical Universe – can only be explained in terms of an Intelligent Source."(2007 interview with Benjamin Wiker)

He further wrote: “The important point is not merely that there are regularities in nature, but that these regularities are mathematically precise, universal, and ‘tied together.’ Einstein spoke of them as ‘reason incarnate.’ The question we should ask is how nature came packaged in this fashion. This is certainly the question that scientists from Newton to Einstein to Heisenberg have asked—and answered. Their answer was the Mind of God.”

Physicist and author Paul Davies (theoretical physicist and cosmologist) points out that science does a wonderful job of explaining physical phenomena such as rain. But he says: “When it comes to . . . questions such as ‘Why are there laws of nature?’ the situation is less clear. These sorts of questions are not much affected by specific scientific discoveries: many of the really big questions have remained unchanged since the birth of civilization and still vex us today.”

Keep in mind, too, that life is not just an assortment of chemical elements. Rather, it is based on an extremely sophisticated form of information, which is encoded in DNA. Hence, when we talk about the origin of life, we are also talking about the origin of biological information. What is the only source of information that we know of ? In a word, intelligence. Would chance accidents produce complex information, such as a computer program or software, an algebraic formula, an encyclopedia, or even a recipe for a cake ? No. Yet, when it comes to sophistication and efficiency, none of these even begin to compare with the information stored in the genetic code of living organisms, in the DNA.

There are myriad chemical reactions that need to be precisely staged to form DNA, the building block of life. Three decades ago Dr. Frank Salisbury of Utah State University, U.S.A., calculated the odds of the spontaneous formation of a basic DNA molecule essential for the appearance of life. The calculations revealed the probability to be so tiny that it is considered mathematically impossible. He assumed that this molecule had the opportunity to develop by natural chemical reactions on 100,000,000,000,000,000,000 (1020) “hospitable” planets over a period of four billion years. What are the chances that a single DNA molecule formed? By his estimate, one in 10415 !

Hence, only by carefully and seriously examining the evidence that surrounds all of us, without bias or prejudice, can a person "see" the reality of a Creator. A person must be reasonable, not "set in their ways."

so you are more impressed with an ancient tribal custom of using a scape goat to wash away your sins?

 

[McBell]

so you are more impressed with an ancient tribal custom of using a scape goat to wash away your sins?

I am waiting for him to present something that is not merely a big huge heaping pile of logical fallacies...

No, I am not holding my breath.

 

[Tom Terrific]

You have not presented any sound evidence.
The closest you have come thus far isn't even circumstantial evidence.
You have presented nothing but wild conjecture and meaningless propaganda.

"Sound evidence" is a relative, question-begging term. The qualifier "sound" must itself be qualified, and is ultimately self-referential.

In short, you are trying desperately to get your choir pleasing sermons to work with those outside your choir.

As are you.

I thought debate was forbidden in this area.

 

[ImmortalPhoenix]

Sin should be defined as selfish indulgence.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Sin could be defined as just "guilt". Both words can be used interchangebly

 

[Tom Terrific]

Sin could be defined as just "guilt". Both words can be used interchangebly

In my opinion, this is a misconception that stops conversation between Christians and Pagans on the very real issue of how religion addresses counter-productive behavior. That's all "sin" really is; Christians tack guilt and condemnation onto it, but these aren't intrinsic to the basic concept. When Pagans accept the Christian formulation, it clouds the issue and inhibits the conversation across the divide.

 

[tripleog2010]

What does sinning mean to you? Can people really sin? Is it wrong to sin if it helps someone else or helps the world in general?

There is no sin that helps anyone, all it does is make everything worse. Sin goes against the natural order of life as God intended.

 

[tripleog2010]

Friend UV,





Yes, the fire is well lit and may have burnt few hearts.
The poetic way of expression is good and hit the bulls eye, So, no sins committed.

Love & rgds

Sin is simple, it means that a person violates one of God's commandments. There's nothing more nor is the nothing less.

 

[tripleog2010]

But I want facts, not beliefs, presented as evidence.

The evidence for God exists in His creation. The fact of creation and all the things that go with it support the idea of God. I don't need any book to believe in God because I can see the creation. The creation isn't God, but it is the evidence of God's existence. Anything else is just speculation. Writings are too unreliable and should only be used as secondary information. If a writing reveals a truth, then it is usable.

 

[tripleog2010]

Fair enough.


There is no "higher law" than mans law.


Simply because my morals do not align with everyone else's morals.
Abortion is a prime example.
Same sex marriage is another.


Yet I say that making abortions illegal would not only be im-moral, but also down right wrong.

Same with capital punishment.

Abortion is murder and homosexuality is against the commandments. Morality is not relative to your proclivities.