What is the best argument against psychedelics?

[Alceste]

Act Normal? Could you do your job on shrooms or would it depend on the job? (Ie Waitress, Traffic Guard, Lawyer, Surgeon or Soldier?)

I can't imagine why anyone would try to go to work on mushrooms. Seems like it would be a waste of mushrooms.

Consider alcohol is legal but you cant show up to work drunk... can you show up to work tripping or how do you see meshing psychedelics with every day life? Should mom and dad be tripping when not working? (Ie if your a traffic guard you cant trip while guarding traffic but after work you can drop 5 hits of acid and become a good mom?)

Well, they meshed into my normal life just fine when I was living in a place where they were abundant and pretty much legal: Saturday afternoons out picking, Saturday evening decorating the apartment, putting a playlist together, putting out toys and replacing all the light bulbs with colored ones, Saturday nights staying in, tripping. Sunday morning, no hangover, fatigue or mental fugginess and a profound feeling of general well-being that lasted until the next expedition.

Unlike alcohol, psychedelics are not addictive. So there is no risk of people feeling like they need to load up before going to work or to meet the girlfriend's family for the first time. Once you've tried them you get a good sense of what would definitely not be fun on mushrooms (like work), so you just don't plan to do those things while you're tripping.

 

[YmirGF]

Well, they meshed into my normal life just fine when I was living in a place where they were abundant and pretty much legal: Saturday afternoons out picking, Saturday evening decorating the apartment, putting a playlist together, putting out toys and replacing all the light bulbs with colored ones, Saturday nights staying in, tripping. Sunday morning, no hangover, fatigue or mental fugginess and a profound feeling of general well-being that lasted until the next expedition.

I can certainly relate to this. I was a total "setting freak" and micromanaged each aspect of my experience. I set aside food, took batteries out of clocks, arrange furniture, had a defined playlist, stacked and ready to go. Last. but not least was my every present clipboard with lots of paper and a couple of good pens and pencils. The reason for this was that about half way through my odyssey I was struck by the quality of the material I was uncovering that screamed to be written down.

This went as far defining a three day experience.
- The lead up day was always very low key and as stress free as possible.
- The day of the event
- The day of followup and reflection. (I would spend several hours going over my notes while everything was still fresh.)

One of my favorite songs to play at the very end of the third day, before bed was "Good Night" by the Beatles. For me, at least, the key was compiling my notes the next day. Normally I would have between 6-25 pages of material from the day of the event. (I still have them in 3-1/2 decade old three-ring binders.)

Unlike alcohol, psychedelics are not addictive.

While technically true, it should be noted that one can get somewhat addicted to the experience itself which generates a desire for more... and more... and more...
The good side is that eventually it all gets pretty boring.

So there is no risk of people feeling like they need to load up before going to work or to meet the girlfriend's family for the first time. Once you've tried them you get a good sense of what would definitely not be fun on mushrooms (like work), so you just don't plan to do those things while you're tripping.

I actually got quite picky about who I would allow to be with me. In those days, I didn't like the "bad vibes" I got from some people. Oddly enough, before long, I usually found out why I had reservations. At the time, I was still too young to understand that I was just a very shrewd judge of people. I just went with my feelings.

One closing thought and a very good reason to NOT use these external agents is that they are simply NOT for everyone. In some ways, they are only for the most well adjusted people, who are totally comfortable with themselves and don't take themselves too terribly seriously. It might sound silly, but if you do not have a fairly generous sense of humor about yourself, you may find yourself in some uncomfortable situations.

 

[Alceste]

I can certainly relate to this. I was a total "setting freak" and micromanaged each aspect of my experience. I set aside food, took batteries out of clocks, arrange furniture, had a defined playlist, stacked and ready to go. Last. but not least was my every present clipboard with lots of paper and a couple of good pens and pencils. The reason for this was that about half way through my odyssey I was struck by the quality of the material I was uncovering that screamed to be written down.

This went as far defining a three day experience.
- The lead up day was always very low key and as stress free as possible.
- The day of the event
- The day of followup and reflection. (I would spend several hours going over my notes while everything was still fresh.)

Sounds like a good set-up. We had a laserpod and a hook-up for all kinds of glowsticks. (You could break those things onto stuff and it would glow for ages.) It was usually a social thing and often involved a long walk through the beautiful Cornish countryside and coast.

I used to draw some of the stuff I'd seen the next day. (Usually tree dwarfs and hedge gremlins).

Also, some days we planned to do it but just called it off and went out for a pint instead because somebody or other wasn't feeling up for it.

One of my favorite songs to play at the very end of the third day, before bed was "Good Night" by the Beatles. For me, at least, the key was compiling my notes the next day. Normally I would have between 6-25 pages of material from the day of the event. (I still have them in 3-1/2 decade old three-ring binders.)

While technically true, it should be noted that one can get somewhat addicted to the experience itself which generates a desire for more... and more... and more...
The good side is that eventually it all gets pretty boring.

I actually got quite picky about who I would allow to be with me. In those days, I didn't like the "bad vibes" I got from some people. Oddly enough, before long, I usually found out why I had reservations. At the time, I was still too young to understand that I was just a very shrewd judge of people. I just went with my feelings.

One closing thought and a very good reason to NOT use these external agents is that they are simply NOT for everyone. In some ways, they are only for the most well adjusted people, who are totally comfortable with themselves and don't take themselves too terribly seriously. It might sound silly, but if you do not have a fairly generous sense of humor about yourself, you may find yourself in some uncomfortable situations.

True, it's kind of more-ish, but not in a bad way like booze, coffee and cigarettes. I feel like they were a big part of an important part of my life that I still have warm feelings about. If I stumble across any out here (apparently they grow everywhere) I'll happily indulge, but I'm not too fussed about it.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

THC in cannabis btw is classed in my Merck Index (Chemist's Bible) as a hallucinogen.....just thought I'd mention it.

 

[Vendetta]

Sometimes in some situations they can produce a mystical experience. Most people in this thread are not claiming that a mystical experience is necessarily supernatural. As I stated, neurotheology, a growing field, studies them from the perspective that they are natural, as does any scientific discipline when attempting to understand a phenomena.

Non-drug induced mystical experiences also have a biological grounding and are approached as natural phenomena when studied scientifically, as are experiences induced by drugs. A mystical or spiritual experience need not entail the supernatural.

And I am saying that neurotransmission such as an increase in dopamine or serotonin could be mistaken az a mystical experience. Neurotheology is not even a scientific field because it deals with the subjective and not objective and it does imply a "spiritual" basis for certain phenomena however this area of neuroscience is new and most likely will not go mainstream for a long time.

 

[no-body]

No mis info on my part.

Nothing personal.

if it makes you happy to believe people are "dreaming when awake" when they hallucinate on psychedelics, then I guess more power to you. I'm just reminding people that factually, this is rubbish. For instance 5-ht2a receptors are activated when ingesting hallucinogens, they aren't when dreaming. If you'd like to go into more of the mechanics to prove me wrong, then go ahead, I will always admit when I'm wrong if shown evidence.

Well my assertion come several posts back where someone romanticized psychedelics as if some mystical element is happening

This is true of drug culture in general. If you pick up the Carlos Castaneda books they read more like romance novels than anthropology/self help books or whatever it is the guy claimed they really where. That is why I am leery of using drug use to reach the spiritual, but then again it's no different than people who romanticize putting on robes and living a life of discipline so they'll get enlightened. Not to knock either, but I think a great deal of self introspection needs to be involved in anything anyone does.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As one seasoned pro to another, you must know violent, murderous impulses are not characteristic of your typical trip.

I think that maybe the guy in the news story was on something more than shrooms. Maybe steroids, maybe amphetamines, or he may just be a psychologically disturbed individual.
What I don't get, drugs like pot and shrooms are much more safe to ingest than many things we already put into our bodies, and it should be personal choice. If I want to smoke a joint and munch of mushrooms, why should there be any penalty? It's my body and my life.

 

[Alceste]

And I am saying that neurotransmission such as an increase in dopamine or serotonin could be mistaken az a mystical experience. Neurotheology is not even a scientific field because it deals with the subjective and not objective and it does imply a "spiritual" basis for certain phenomena however this area of neuroscience is new and most likely will not go mainstream for a long time.

It seems you are assuming there is a "genuine" mystical experience that intentional serotonin / dopamine manipulation with entheogens compares unfavorably to. ADAICR, you are the only person here who is advancing that notion. Are not ALL mystical experiences characterized by similar differences in hormone levels and brain wave activity?

As far as I can see, there is no reason to believe in an externally catalyzed mystical experience and every reason to believe such experiences are a basic facet of human psychology. If that's the case, as it seems to be, then any activity that produces psychological changes we experience as profoundly "mystical" or "spiritual" is equally valid and useful.

 

[Alceste]

I think that maybe the guy in the news story was on something more than shrooms. Maybe steroids, maybe amphetamines, or he may just be a psychologically disturbed individual.
What I don't get, drugs like pot and shrooms are much more safe to ingest than many things we already put into our bodies, and it should be personal choice. If I want to smoke a joint and munch of mushrooms, why should there be any penalty? It's my body and my life.

Yeah, I don't get that either. But you can see from the drug legalization threads on this forum how much misinformation is out there, and how pervasive it is. I think it has something to do with our countries' puritanical roots and our leaders' tendency toward extreme paranoia about what they feel is lurking in the deeper recesses of the human psyche.

What annoys me the most is that they rubber stamp every new offering from the pharmaceutical industry, however dangerous and carelessly tested, without so much as batting an eye, and it's all the best thing since sliced bread. Meanwhile they continue to throw people in jail simply for ingesting things that grow from the ground that our species has been harmlessly ingesting for tens of thousands of years. The hypocrisy and nepotism of it is completely infuriating, never mind the expense and the pointless waste of precious human time and prospects.

 

[Vendetta]

It seems you are assuming there is a "genuine" mystical experience that intentional serotonin / dopamine manipulation with entheogens compares unfavorably to. ADAICR, you are the only person here who is advancing that notion. Are not ALL mystical experiences characterized by similar differences in hormone levels and brain wave activity?

As far as I can see, there is no reason to believe in an externally catalyzed mystical experience and every reason to believe such experiences are a basic facet of human psychology. If that's the case, as it seems to be, then any activity that produces psychological changes we experience as profoundly "mystical" or "spiritual" is equally valid and useful.

Alcaste you really don't get it. You are definitely a byproduct of the phrase "don't do drugs" instead of skimming through my comments read them! I am saying neurotransmission in relation to ingesting psychedelic drugs may be.mistaken for a mystical experience. In other words the weird colors you see or flying leprechauns has nothing to do with the drug.itself.but the brain areas.and the.neurons affected. Now let me race myself for laughter cause.I.know.you'll.misinterpret that.

 

[Alceste]

Vendetta, you are the one who keeps insisting that changes in brain chemistry can be "mistaken" for mystical experience, when in fact - as far as we know - changes in brain chemistry ARE mystical experience. You are intensely focussed on a distinction that does not exist.

 

[Vendetta]

Because there IS a distinction between what actually exist, and what is perceived. I am saying based off research I know is that brain chemistry can create grandiose thoughts and/or hallucinations that the person may perceive as real. For instance if LSD affects the frontal, parietal, and occipital lobes the mysticism that is perceived is merely brain activity, in other words there is no mystical stuff going on.

 

[Alceste]

Because there IS a distinction between what actually exist, and what is perceived. I am saying based off research I know is that brain chemistry can create grandiose thoughts and/or hallucinations that the person may perceive as real. For instance if LSD affects the frontal, parietal, and occipital lobes the mysticism that is perceived is merely brain activity, in other words there is no mystical stuff going on.

There you go again, implicitly claiming there is such a thing as a "real" mystical experience that has nothing to do with brain chemistry.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Because there IS a distinction between what actually exist, and what is perceived. I am saying based off research I know is that brain chemistry can create grandiose thoughts and/or hallucinations that the person may perceive as real. For instance if LSD affects the frontal, parietal, and occipital lobes the mysticism that is perceived is merely brain activity, in other words there is no mystical stuff going on.

The brain does things that makes us see and hear things that aren't there all the time. It's part of the reason why the face of the Virgin Mary appears in random places. Psychedelics do alter the brain chemistry, but prescribing psychiatric medications is really a medical Russian roulette. The reason people who start on any such medication needs to be monitored by friends and loved ones is because they can make a patient more depressed and even suicidal. And the actual process of deciding what to prescribe a patient is really just a best guess based on what is most likely to cause the symptoms and what is most likely going to treat it the best.
As for religious or mystical experiences, that is all based on perception. I know some people who smoke saliva divinorum for religious purposes, and some who smoke it for recreational purposes. Both groups experience the same trip, but it's the individual interpretation that makes it a mystical experience or the effect of a drug. And the same thing applies to everyday sober living. Some people see life itself as a mystical experience, while some see life as just that.

 

[Sententia]

I can't imagine why anyone would try to go to work on mushrooms. Seems like it would be a waste of mushrooms.

Depends on the job. If your gonna be walking steel beams in below 0 degree weather 31 stories up then ya it might be a waste... if you however work as a waitress, coffee shop employee or in psychotherapy or basically any jorb with a lot of social interactions it might be different.

Well, they meshed into my normal life just fine when I was living in a place where they were abundant and pretty much legal: Saturday afternoons out picking, Saturday evening decorating the apartment, putting a playlist together, putting out toys and replacing all the light bulbs with colored ones, Saturday nights staying in, tripping. Sunday morning, no hangover, fatigue or mental fugginess and a profound feeling of general well-being that lasted until the next expedition.

Unlike alcohol, psychedelics are not addictive. So there is no risk of people feeling like they need to load up before going to work or to meet the girlfriend's family for the first time. Once you've tried them you get a good sense of what would definitely not be fun on mushrooms (like work), so you just don't plan to do those things while you're tripping.

They are not physically addictive. They could be mentally addictive. You could prefer one experience to the other so much that despite no physical addiction you would still be in most senses addicted. Think: Video Games, TV, Doritos... etc...

 

[EverChanging]

And I am saying that neurotransmission such as an increase in dopamine or serotonin could be mistaken az a mystical experience. Neurotheology is not even a scientific field because it deals with the subjective and not objective and it does imply a "spiritual" basis for certain phenomena however this area of neuroscience is new and most likely will not go mainstream for a long time.

Neurotheology is just a broad term for studies that attempt to uncover the biological basis for mystical experiences. For instance, Michael Persinger's God helmet is able to simulate some of the aspects of mystical experiences by stimulating the temporal lobe. The temporal lobe is known to be involved when temporal lobe epileptics have seizures and experience spiritual experiences. And much of science is aimed at studying the subjective, contrary to what you say: that's what virtually the whole field of consciousness studies is about. I can even recommend a college text book for you: An Introduction to Consciousness, by Susan Blackmore. It covers every major theory. Daniel Dennet is another author who studies consciousness from both a philosophical and scientific perspective.

Psychologists are now much concerned with the genetic and biological contributions to religiosity and mystical experience. This isn't just some fringe field -- it is taken seriously by notable scientists and philosophers. As for your assertion that neurotheology necessarily implies a "spiritual" basis for mystical experience, I have yet to come across this. Scientists, including psychologists, who are exploring this issue assert that these studies have nothing to do with proving or disproving a god or supernatural reality: that is beyond their abilities, nor is it that the motivating interest. Such a belief is merely a personal one, not something these studies are focused on.

Regarding neurotransmitters, dopamine and serotonin are probably involved in mystical experiences, drug induced or not, as is the temporal lobe. You are making a distinction that does not exist in trying to separate a mystical experience from its biological component. Mystical experience entails perception, and perception entails brain activity. Even non-drug induced mystical experiences involve a biological component; indeed, meditation is known to cause certain changes in brain waves, as evidenced by brain scans of Roman Catholic nuns and Buddhist monks during meditation. How anyone could separate a mystical experience from its biological component is beyond me. That seems to imply a kind of dualism -- that we can experience something, in this case a mystical experience, without involvement from the brain or a biological component. The evidence does not support that notion.

 

[Alceste]

Depends on the job. If your gonna be walking steel beams in below 0 degree weather 31 stories up then ya it might be a waste... if you however work as a waitress, coffee shop employee or in psychotherapy or basically any jorb with a lot of social interactions it might be different.

Lots of obligatory, scripted social interactions with people who are not on mushrooms is the absolute last possible thing that anybody who is on mushrooms would ever desire.

They are not physically addictive. They could be mentally addictive. You could prefer one experience to the other so much that despite no physical addiction you would still be in most senses addicted. Think: Video Games, TV, Doritos... etc...

No, they're not. I don't know anybody who even attempts to spend as much time tripping as your average World of Warcraft addict. I don't know if it's even physiologically possible. When you're done, you're done. That seems do be a fairly universal phenomenon.

 

[Vendetta]

Neurotheology is just a broad term for studies that attempt to uncover the biological basis for mystical experiences. For instance, Michael Persinger's God helmet is able to simulate some of the aspects of mystical experiences by stimulating the temporal lobe. The temporal lobe is known to be involved when temporal lobe epileptics have seizures and experience spiritual experiences. And much of science is aimed at studying the subjective, contrary to what you say: that's what virtually the whole field of consciousness studies is about. I can even recommend a college text book for you: An Introduction to Consciousness, by Susan Blackmore. It covers every major theory. Daniel Dennet is another author who studies consciousness from both a philosophical and scientific perspective.

Psychologists are now much concerned with the genetic and biological contributions to religiosity and mystical experience. This isn't just some fringe field -- it is taken seriously by notable scientists and philosophers. As for your assertion that neurotheology necessarily implies a "spiritual" basis for mystical experience, I have yet to come across this. Scientists, including psychologists, who are exploring this issue assert that these studies have nothing to do with proving or disproving a god or supernatural reality: that is beyond their abilities, nor is it that the motivating interest. Such a belief is merely a personal one, not something these studies are focused on.

Regarding neurotransmitters, dopamine and serotonin are probably involved in mystical experiences, drug induced or not, as is the temporal lobe. You are making a distinction that does not exist in trying to separate a mystical experience from its biological component. Mystical experience entails perception, and perception entails brain activity. Even non-drug induced mystical experiences involve a biological component; indeed, meditation is known to cause certain changes in brain waves, as evidenced by brain scans of Roman Catholic nuns and Buddhist monks during meditation. How anyone could separate a mystical experience from its biological component is beyond me. That seems to imply a kind of dualism -- that we can experience something, in this case a mystical experience, without involvement from the brain or a biological component. The evidence does not support that notion.

Everchanging you are absolutely right.....Psychologist are indeed more concerned with the variables that attributed to unexplainable behavior. Personally, neurotheology is an interesting field but I need to know more about it. I am more into neuroscience.

 

[Vendetta]

The brain does things that makes us see and hear things that aren't there all the time. It's part of the reason why the face of the Virgin Mary appears in random places. Psychedelics do alter the brain chemistry, but prescribing psychiatric medications is really a medical Russian roulette. The reason people who start on any such medication needs to be monitored by friends and loved ones is because they can make a patient more depressed and even suicidal. And the actual process of deciding what to prescribe a patient is really just a best guess based on what is most likely to cause the symptoms and what is most likely going to treat it the best.
As for religious or mystical experiences, that is all based on perception. I know some people who smoke saliva divinorum for religious purposes, and some who smoke it for recreational purposes. Both groups experience the same trip, but it's the individual interpretation that makes it a mystical experience or the effect of a drug. And the same thing applies to everyday sober living. Some people see life itself as a mystical experience, while some see life as just that.

Smoke saliva? You mean salvia?

 

[Vendetta]

There you go again, implicitly claiming there is such a thing as a "real" mystical experience that has nothing to do with brain chemistry.

I am making an assumption based on comments said here, and implied research. It is a safe assumption to say those who hallucinate find these mind altering effects "real"