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What is the best argument against psychedelics?

kylixguru

Well-Known Member
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Alceste

Vagabond
Your negative response is noted and...disregarded.

Never see any documentaries...do you?

People do indeed respond to their dreams.
Drug induced or not.

That's why it's called hallucination.

But you aren't actually running around doing all the stuff you are dreaming of. You are lying in bed dreaming it all "responding" in every practical sense as if you were sleeping. Tripping is like dreaming in that you see things, but unlike dreaming in that you know you're tripping. Part of the fun is trying to work out what you're actually looking at.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
That is interesting. I think that they chose people who already had a spiritual background to be a big factor though.

I agree that was a poor choice - and quite bad science besides. OTOH, this is only one of many studies that reach similar conclusions without unjustifiably limiting the selection based on unsubstantiated preconceptions.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
But you aren't actually running around doing all the stuff you are dreaming of. You are lying in bed dreaming it all "responding" in every practical sense as if you were sleeping. Tripping is like dreaming in that you see things, but unlike dreaming in that you know you're tripping. Part of the fun is trying to work out what you're actually looking at.

Nay....

Under influence of your own chemistry....
you would be asleep....lightly immobile....and then you dream.

Hallucinogens overload your chemistry.
You dream while awake and able.

Art Linkletter's daughter jump from a high rise.
She thought she could fly.

The incident was greatly printed and televised....
as an argument against psychedelics.

But then, there is also the discussion, that she was not altogether a happy person, and committed suicide.

It could be said your immediate state of mind is a factor.
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
Your ability to dream is controlled by your chemistry.
And the chemistry that confuses the brain does so because the molecule resembles the natural stuff your brain uses.

Again, no. Dreaming is even today not well understood and while some of the chemicals and sensations may be similar they are not the same. Many of the reactions that happen when you take a hallucinogen are not present in dreaming.

It would be like saying taking LSD is the same as eating a handful of Jimsonweed because it "all acts on the same chemicals"
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Nay....

Under influence of your own chemistry....
you would be asleep....lightly immobile....and then you dream.

Hallucinogens overload your chemistry.
You dream while awake and able.

Art Linkletter's daughter jump from a high rise.
She thought she could fly.

The incident was greatly printed and televised....
as an argument against psychedelics.

But then, there is also the discussion, that she was not altogether a happy person, and committed suicide.

It could be said your immediate state of mind is a factor.

As much as it pains our simple monkey minds to accept this, isolated anecdotes don't constitute evidence of anything. One girl committing suicide while on drugs is no more evidence against psychedelics than my having a wonderful, safe, fun and enlightening trip with long-lasting beneficial effects is evidence for them.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
As much as it pains our simple monkey minds to accept this, isolated anecdotes don't constitute evidence of anything. One girl committing suicide while on drugs is no more evidence against psychedelics than my having a wonderful, safe, fun and enlightening trip with long-lasting beneficial effects is evidence for them.

I was just reporting.....

I'm not altogether opposed to such things.
But having read my previous postings....
you would have been aware.
 

Vendetta

"Oscar the grouch"
Why wouldn't he/she/it? Doesn't make it any less valid.

Im not judging the user. Take all the drugs you want and damage your brain. My point was feeding people misinformation that could lead others to try illegal substances by suggesting "taking this pill it will make you see God" is wrong information. Like I said your brain does the tripping not some external force.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Im not judging the user. Take all the drugs you want and damage your brain. My point was feeding people misinformation that could lead others to try illegal substances by suggesting "taking this pill it will make you see God" is wrong information. Like I said your brain does the tripping not some external force.

"Drinking this tea might make you feel as if you're seeing God" isn't exactly a less convincing sales pitch.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
...a good ritualistic approach to the acid experience will give you the same if not better experience that it might take you years to reach through intense meditation.

How would you know one way or the other? Do you have anything besides anecdotal evidence for your claim? Have any peer-reviewed studies been made? I'm curious what's out there in terms of hard facts.
 

The Wizard

Active Member
Psychedelics plus steroids made someone down my road tear the living heart out of his friend and feed it to his dog. He was a wrestler on magic mushrooms. I guess that would be good enough reason for me... IMO.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Psychedelics plus steroids made someone down my road tear the living heart out of his friend and feed it to his dog. He was a wrestler on magic mushrooms. I guess that would be good enough reason for me... IMO.
That sounds a bit unlikely. Do you have a link to a news story about the incident?
 

The Wizard

Active Member
That sounds a bit unlikely. Do you have a link to a news story about the incident?

Of course I do.. look it up in Klamath, California (a cage fighter/wrestler, magic mushrooms, etc). Out of respects for the community I do not mention names- horrible incident. I think it was about 2 years ago. I just mentioned it becouse people don't think bad things can occur.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Of course I do.. look it up in Klamath, California (a cage fighter/wrestler, magic mushrooms, etc). Out of respects for the community I do not mention names- horrible incident. I think it was about 2 years ago. I just mentioned it becouse people don't think bad things can occur.
2) Mixed martial arts fighter Wyatt faces murder charge in Northern California - ContraCostaTimes.com

All I can say is Wow. I think this incident illustrates well the potential psychosis that some people may experience. Hallucinogens are extremely powerful drugs which can, under the right conditions, quite literally replace reality with a given delusion. This would seem to be one such case, that much is clear. I'm not sure the average reader or someone who has not taken these drugs can understand how incredibly real these delusions can seem. I take back my doubt. That said, I can see how this could happen to people who are not psychologically fit to go through the experience.
 

The Wizard

Active Member
2) Mixed martial arts fighter Wyatt faces murder charge in Northern California - ContraCostaTimes.com

All I can say is Wow. I think this incident illustrates well the potential psychosis that some people may experience. Hallucinogens are extremely powerful drugs which can, under the right conditions, quite literally replace reality with a given delusion. This would seem to be one such case, that much is clear. I'm not sure the average reader or someone who has not taken these drugs can understand how incredibly real these delusions can seem. I take back my doubt. That said, I can see how this could happen to people who are not psychologically fit to go through the experience.

Considering that I am about 5 houses away in this country setting, everyone knows everyone and I almost took up a land maintenence caretaking job for those folks, yes..The whole thing created quite a sight around here.. I never met that guy though... It's hard to believe that a mushroom could cause something like that. But, it happens and such stories go away fast becouse no one wants to think about it... IMO.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
So concerning natural psychedelics like Mushrooms, Cactus, or Momosa bark...is there any credible argument to not making them a part of your life and routine? Is there any argument that can convince anyone that any substance changes the human condition any? Jesus said it is not what goes into a man's mouth that defiles a man, because a man is corrupted by sin, not by plants or meat or by drugs.

Our hearts are sinful, nothing but God can change that.

The greatest argument against any shell enhancement is the altered baseline of perception. For instance, ellen january is a smoker; and there was a time when that was not so. There is the threat of looming health issues, an occasional cough, a shortness of breath; factors which an outsider may point out a detriment. However, there are essentially no - factors - as the Operating System "ellenjanuary" is currently installed in "default smoker."

The mind, in these cases, is truly beyond the brain. The original neural network of culture, context, sobriety; processes and prioritizes data in a manner far different. That which is "ellen" could not operate within those confines... and in my case, forty-two and semi-retired; the animal is done and dusted. Beyond the animal, the sole detriment becomes - living. And what is the choice?

To summarize, any enhancement of perception alters the baseline; beyond that... there is no argument.

There is Godel's Incompleteness...

Chemicals in nature that hold the keys to the locks in our minds? It should be taught in school...
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
2) Mixed martial arts fighter Wyatt faces murder charge in Northern California - ContraCostaTimes.com

All I can say is Wow. I think this incident illustrates well the potential psychosis that some people may experience. Hallucinogens are extremely powerful drugs which can, under the right conditions, quite literally replace reality with a given delusion. This would seem to be one such case, that much is clear. I'm not sure the average reader or someone who has not taken these drugs can understand how incredibly real these delusions can seem. I take back my doubt. That said, I can see how this could happen to people who are not psychologically fit to go through the experience.

Another reason to teach this stuff in school. Mushrooms are not meant for "getting high," but the counter-cultural perspective is there when all the mainstream does is deny. If one is exposed to these substances, as I once was - where was a "tripmaster general" to guide he initiate - one develops a whole different classification of "recreational drug." For instance, I have zero desire -0 - for this kind of "recreation;" but it is almost always Miller Time. ;)
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Considering that I am about 5 houses away in this country setting, everyone knows everyone and I almost took up a land maintenence caretaking job for those folks, yes..The whole thing created quite a sight around here.. I never met that guy though... It's hard to believe that a mushroom could cause something like that. But, it happens and such stories go away fast becouse no one wants to think about it... IMO.


Mushrooms don't "cause things like that". You might as well say that being an MMA fighter or a Christian "causes" you to brutally murder people - there's just as much evidence in this story to support one conclusion as the other. Down the street from me a guy who was not on any drugs at all murdered his entire family, a basement suite renter and then killed himself with a knife. Not long ago another guy who was not on drugs beheaded a total stranger on a Greyhound bus. What these people had in common was severe, untreated mental illness, not the use of hallucinogens. Also, between drinking the tea, killing his friend, being arrested and interviewed twice, many hours would have elapsed, surely. It sounds like he was still talking nonsense long after the tea should have worn off.

All the same, it certainly is tragic, and it reaffirms that people at risk of suffering major psychotic breaks shouldn't go anywhere near hallucinogens, and that those who try them should be with people they know well and trust.
 
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