What is the best argument against psychedelics?

[Thief]

I did not see it ....did anyone say so....

You're all addicted to chemistry that causes hallucination.

Every night...you dream.
You must.

The physical process involves chemistry.
You must have this chemistry.

Without it.....you will lose your ability to function normally during the day.

You are physically addicted to your chemistry.

As for altering your dream state when awake?
Be careful.
You should have someone you trust, nearby...and they should know what you are doing...and what to do if things don't go well.

 

[doppelganger]

I did not see it ....did anyone say so....

You're all addicted to chemistry that causes hallucination.

Every night...you dream.
You must.

The physical process involves chemistry.
You must have this chemistry.

Without it.....you will lose your ability to function normally during the day.

Who says dreams are limited to the night or that the functions of the day are the "normal" ones?

 

[jmvizanko]

That far as I know, there is no upside for the effect, and lots of downsides.

HOPKINS SCIENTISTS SHOW HALLUCINOGEN IN MUSHROOMS CREATES UNIVERSAL

 

[Vendetta]

I AM evidence of that.

Um no you're not. I have personally read research articles on group comparison of chronic (no pun intended) weed smokers versus recreational and non-weed smokers. Results showed both groups did poorer than non-weed smoker when it comes to memory recall and chronic weed smokers did the poorest. I will get you that research article

 

[Vendetta]

Sure can:

Myths and Facts About Marijuana

I read your website and indeed there is valid information however research on marijuana and free recall is a continuous study. Marijuana may not have long lasting effects on memory but the website doesn't address differences between young and old brains, that is to say a "chronic" weed smoker that is young and one that is old. In addition, THC and the increase in canaboid receptors has no benefit to recall whatsoever

 

[Thief]

Who says dreams are limited to the night or that the functions of the day are the "normal" ones?

There is a rare condition....pavor nocturnum.
(I think I spelled that right.)

The chemistry that allows to dream would be there.
But the chemistry that keeps you... on your bed...won't be.

Normally, you become somewhat immobile as you dream.
It prevents your undue response to what you dream.

During your waking hours the chemistry for dreaming is subdued...by more chemistry.

Hallucinogens overload your waking hour chemistry.
You dream...while on your feet...eyes wide open.

This can be a hazardous state of mind, as you would respond to what you see and hear, as if it were real.

However, it is duly noted that experimentation with such chemistry, can be a good thing....in those who understand what they are doing.

In some cultures, participation is normal....expected.

I cannot argue fault.
They have been doing so...for centuries.

 

[Alceste]

Um no you're not. I have personally read research articles on group comparison of chronic (no pun intended) weed smokers versus recreational and non-weed smokers. Results showed both groups did poorer than non-weed smoker when it comes to memory recall and chronic weed smokers did the poorest. I will get you that research article

Did they study people who used to be recreational weed smokers and don't smoke any more? (Except during particularly painful monthlies)? If not, then the study isn't really relevant to the factual claim that memory loss is short term and recoverable. I'll read it nevertheless, if you can find it for me. I'm interested.

 

[Alceste]

Pot isn't a psychedelic (unless you're using a lot of it). Pot is less dangerous than alcohol. Mushrooms can cause severe anxiety and paranoia on the mild side of a bad trip, and a significant loss of the ability to understand sensory reality on the other end. Mushrooms also present risks of overdose and accidental poisoning.

Even if less dangerous than alcohol, as a means to altering perception, none of them is necessary. Hence, my answer to the OP.

Well, I don't think you can accurately describe altered perception as a danger when that is the whole point of the exercise. As to occasional feelings of paranoia or discomfort during the come-up, I feel I can safely say from experience that the vast majority of people who experience these effects nevertheless believe the benefits outweighed their discomfort. Research apparently backs me up here:

Two months later, 79 percent of subjects reported moderately or greatly increased well-being or life satisfaction compared with those given a placebo at the same test session. A majority said their mood, attitudes and behaviors had changed for the better. Structured interviews with family members, friends and co-workers generally confirmed the subjects’ remarks. Results of a year-long followup are being readied for publication.


Psychological tests and subjects’ own reports showed no harm to study participants, though some admitted extreme anxiety or other unpleasant effects in the hours following the psilocybin capsule. The drug has not been observed to be addictive or physically toxic in animal studies or human populations. “In this regard,” says Griffiths, a psychopharmacologist, “it contrasts with MDMA (ecstasy), amphetamines or alcohol.”

Almost all mushroom poisonings are the result of mistaking toxic mushrooms for edible ones, by which I mean non-hallucinogenic wild mushrooms you could chuck into a stir fry. My dalliances with liberty caps have been no more perilous to my physical well-being than your dalliances with a variety of omelet fillings.


Anyway, I am not arguing that hallucinogenic plants are necessary, but only that they are generally not harmful. Certainly they are far less harmful than alcohol, not to mention the cornucopia of dodgy pharmaceuticals we are all more than happy to chuck down our throats as long as someone in a lab coat recommends them to us.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I read your website and indeed there is valid information however research on marijuana and free recall is a continuous study. Marijuana may not have long lasting effects on memory but the website doesn't address differences between young and old brains, that is to say a "chronic" weed smoker that is young and one that is old. In addition, THC and the increase in canaboid receptors has no benefit to recall whatsoever

I ask you; what is your definition of chronic?

 

[no-body]

The cultures that use psychedelics prepare their bodies and minds for a very long time before they do these drugs and use set and setting to ensure that the trip will be beneficial. These are powerful mind altering chemicals that deserve respect, if you use them like candy they are going to teach you a (bad) lesson in the long run.

Hallucinogens overload your waking hour chemistry.
You dream...while on your feet...eyes wide open.

This can be a hazardous state of mind, as you would respond to what you see and hear, as if it were real.

No.

 

[doppelganger]

Well, I don't think you can accurately describe altered perception as a danger when that is the whole point of the exercise.

I didn't. Altered perception is obviously one of the main features/benefits of hallucinogens and psychedelics. Though, depending on the circumstances, enough of an altered perception can certainly become a danger to one's self and others.

My point is that they aren't completely harmless. Drugs aren't necessary to achieve altered perception. And they may be for many people counterproductive, because they may habitually lean on the drugs as a means to achieving altered perception and spiritual bliss, rather than developing the spiritual maturity to bring such bliss into one's daily affairs without the use of the drugs.

They also can be habitually used for escapism. Spiritual practice is for managing and coping with existential anxiety. Not escaping into an altered universe. If you're going to do that, might as well glom onto an established religious system.

From a spiritual practice standpoint, which is what the OP asked about, they aren't as good an idea as practiced meditation and personal introspection.

 

[Alceste]

Dopp, as someone who has experienced altered perception both through meditation and hallucinogens, I can assure you they are not the same. Not at all. Just as entheogens can't be a substitute for other spiritual practices, other practices can not reliably produce the effects of hallucinogens.

If 80% of psilocybin test subjects report a profound spiritual experience on their first and only trip that produced long-lasting beneficial changes in mood and behavior, would you be able to say the same of one-off meditators? I think not.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The best argument against psychedelics is talking to someone who has dosed one too many times.

 

[no-body]

Dopp, as someone who has experienced altered perception both through meditation and hallucinogens, I can assure you they are not the same. Not at all. Just as entheogens can't be a substitute for other spiritual practices, other practices can not reliably produce the effects of hallucinogens.

If 80% of psilocybin test subjects report a profound spiritual experience on their first and only trip that produced long-lasting beneficial changes in mood and behavior, would you be able to say the same of one-off meditators? I think not.

I would like to see sources for this. Many of the "trip reports" I read from people having sober mystical experiences sound exactly the same as psychedelic experiences. Obviously one time meditation isn't going to do it, it takes discipline and many, sometimes years of repetition, hypnosis, praying, fasting, whatever to get there but the results are usually the same.

 

[Jacksnyte]

I would like to see sources for this. Many of the "trip reports" I read from people having sober mystical experiences sound exactly the same as psychedelic experiences. Obviously one time meditation isn't going to do it, it takes discipline and many, sometimes years of repetition, hypnosis, praying, fasting, whatever to get there but the results are usually the same.

I have experienced both. There are similarities, but there are profound differences as well. Descriptions do not convey these experiences. It comes down to that old chestnut, "to one who has not had the experience no explaination is adequate, to one who has had the experience, none is necessary".

 

[Willamena]

What's all this fuss I hear about psychic delis? What's the big deal about eating food made of thought? You can't even taste it! Or, if you can, you can't spit it out! Other kinds of delis are important too... sandwich delis, cheese delis, pickle delis...

Anchor: Um, Ms. Litella? It's psychedelics.

What?

Anchor: Psychedelics. Not "psychic delis."

...Oh. Nevermind.

 

[doppelganger]

Anchor: Psychedelics. Not "psychic delis."

...Oh. Nevermind.

Do you have to take a number at a psychic deli?

 

[YmirGF]

Do you have to take a number at a psychic deli?

No. They already know who is next.

 

[EverChanging]

I have experienced both. There are similarities, but there are profound differences as well. Descriptions do not convey these experiences. It comes down to that old chestnut, "to one who has not had the experience no explaination is adequate, to one who has had the experience, none is necessary".

My mystical states all occurred either in a sober state or during dreaming and have many similarities with near-death experiences and other accounts I read. I have also experienced enhanced creativity and other pleasant (and, as I have said, some not-so-pleasant) effects on various drugs, but it did not compare to the mystical states I mentioned. I accept that in carefully controlled situations, some drugs can lead to almost instant mystic states for a large number of people, but given my condition and psychotic break with marijuana, I refuse to try psychedelics. I prefer the more slow route of prayer, contemplation, meditation, and spiritual discipline. These practices have led to lasting effects; I don't find it at all difficult to enter into an altered state of consciousness without drugs. Granted, these states don't compare with the few mystic states I've encountered, which are not as easy to enter into. Mine occurred spontaneously, though I don't think meditation hurts the process.

I don't have a problem with people who do drugs or seek a spiritual experience in drugs under controlled settings, but everyone should know how this can trigger a psychotic state in someone with predispositions toward what we rather vaguely refer to as "mental illness;" even if one has never experienced symptoms of mental illness, the predisposition can still be there, and the drug can trigger it.

As I said, I am not anti-drugs, nor do I believe drugs should be illegal, but they must be respected. In general, I have not found many people in the drug sub-culture, with some exceptions, who truly respect drugs, even something as mild as marijuana.

 

[Alceste]

I would like to see sources for this. Many of the "trip reports" I read from people having sober mystical experiences sound exactly the same as psychedelic experiences. Obviously one time meditation isn't going to do it, it takes discipline and many, sometimes years of repetition, hypnosis, praying, fasting, whatever to get there but the results are usually the same.

There you go. Most people aren't going to do that. Also, they are not the same. The source was posted up-thread, and quoted. http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/07_11_06.html