What is the best argument against psychedelics?

[Psychonaut]

I support the legalization of drugs. I have used certain enhancements to help me write papers, inspire creativity, etc. However, as I have written before, I have come to understand that there is nothing in the drugged state that is not also somewhere in the sober state.

However, your argument is really rather ridiculous. Not everyone should ingest psychedelics. That is one class of drugs I have never touched except for marijuana, which is very mild. And I'll tell you right now: not everyone is suited to marijuana. I happen to be schizoaffective, and when I tried marijuana, I had a psychotic break and screamed as I fell through a kaelidoscope of windows. I also had panic attacks and mood swings, going from extreme euphoria to panic and anxiety. These drugs are not harmless and should not be passed off as so.

So you don't even use marijuana because you're physically incapable of handling the drug? What does that jaw to do with trying it or not? That's like saying lifting weights is dangerous because someone gets injured, or sports etc.

A man with no legs wil not run marathons, but running marathons does not necessarily cause a man to lose his legs.

Likewise psychedelics will not cause you to lose your mind except that you will be confronted with your mind in very powerful ways.

If your mind is already handicapped, you may not think you can handle it. But since you have never tried a strong psychedelic...you really don't know.

 

[Psychonaut]

I support the legalization of drugs. I have used certain enhancements to help me write papers, inspire creativity, etc. However, as I have written before, I have come to understand that there is nothing in the drugged state that is not also somewhere in the sober state.

However, your argument is really rather ridiculous. Not everyone should ingest psychedelics. That is one class of drugs I have never touched except for marijuana, which is very mild. And I'll tell you right now: not everyone is suited to marijuana. I happen to be schizoaffective, and when I tried marijuana, I had a psychotic break and screamed as I fell through a kaelidoscope of windows. I also had panic attacks and mood swings, going from extreme euphoria to panic and anxiety. These drugs are not harmless and should not be passed off as so.

Let's just examine for instance a kaleidoscope of windows...that's the fun part. Mood swings? This is where drugs teach you that mood is "conditional".

That is if the situation hasn't changed why should your mood or feelings?

If you can't think straight because of a functional impairment that's a different issue, but that's why people rightly fear meth and heroine and so forth.

 

[EverChanging]

So you don't even use marijuana because you're physically incapable of handling the drug? What does that jaw to do with trying it or not? That's like saying lifting weights is dangerous because someone gets injured, or sports etc.

A man with no legs wil not run marathons, but running marathons does not necessarily cause a man to lose his legs.

Likewise psychedelics will not cause you to lose your mind except that you will be confronted with your mind in very powerful ways.

If your mind is already handicapped, you may not think you can handle it. But since you have never tried a strong psychedelic...you really don't know.

I did not say one should not try it. I said they should be cautious and respect the drug for what it is. If someone has a psychotic break on something as mild as marijuana, that's a dam* good reason to not mess with a stronger drug. And you do NOT know whether or not someone will lose their mind on a given drug, especially given that they are illegal and thus a person is often unaware of what it might be laced with (another reason I support legalization).

I do not say that drugs are evil or bad -- I've tried several (but no psychedelics other than marijuana). But they must be respected, both for their benefits and their dangers. Anyone with a condition similar to mine should be doubly aware.

 

[EverChanging]

Let's just examine for instance a kaleidoscope of windows...that's the fun part. Mood swings? This is where drugs teach you that mood is "conditional".

That is if the situation hasn't changed why should your mood or feelings?

Why should my moods change? I am schizoaffective with a bi polar affective. That means I already have major mood swings that can put me into a psychotic state without drugs. In this instance, I was not just having mood swings over days or weeks, but within seconds: uncontrollable laughter to panic attacks. No amount of reason could have calmed me down because I had an averse response to the drug and was left without the ability to reason due to laws of biochemistry among other factors of which I was not in control. As I have already said, I do not believe drugs should be illegal at all, nor do I think marijuana itself is a particularly bad drug, but like any drug, it has its dangers. To claim otherwise is blatant disrespect toward the drug itself, not to mention stupidity.

And I don't need a drug to teach me that mood is conditional. It's pretty obvious, especially since I have a bi polar affective.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Depends on which one. LSD can potentially be dangerous, even fatal, if it isn't properly manufactured. Shrooms and pot are generally harmless (save for a small percentage of people that do have negative reactions) and there really isn't any argument against them.
I know one guy who smokes a bowl of pot in the morning, smokes a few bowls while doing his homework, and even smokes a few bowls while on his newspaper route. While many people would probably think he would have poor performances, he actually has held a 4.0 GPA throughout all his semesters in college, and will most likely graduate with a solid 4.0 after this semester, and he hasn't missed a delivery in over a year and his customers leave him some very generous Christmas tips. So in some cases, the only argument against is that they are illegal.

 

[Alceste]

That far as I know, there is no upside for the effect, and lots of downsides.

Would you say the same of dreaming?

 

[Alceste]

The insights secondary to the psychedelic effects will lead people to abandon their traditional faiths. That's the problem.

As well as their traditional roles, their indoctrinated values, their soul-killing office jobs, and the pathological, world-destroying, uninhibited accumulation of consumer goods. It's also good for depression! Up the shroom!

 

[Alceste]

So you don't even use marijuana because you're physically incapable of handling the drug? What does that jaw to do with trying it or not? That's like saying lifting weights is dangerous because someone gets injured, or sports etc.

A man with no legs wil not run marathons, but running marathons does not necessarily cause a man to lose his legs.

Likewise psychedelics will not cause you to lose your mind except that you will be confronted with your mind in very powerful ways.

If your mind is already handicapped, you may not think you can handle it. But since you have never tried a strong psychedelic...you really don't know.

Research has shown that hallucinogens can trigger lasting, devastating psychotic and schizophrenic episodes in people who have these illnesses or are at risk of developing them. IOW, it won't make you mentally ill, but it may cause symptoms of an existing mental illness to present. So, EverChanging made absolutely the right choice as far as that goes.

OTOH,

After taking the hallucinogen, Dr. Martin put on an eye mask and headphones, and lay on a couch listening to classical music as he contemplated the universe.
“All of a sudden, everything familiar started evaporating,” he recalled. “Imagine you fall off a boat out in the open ocean, and you turn around, and the boat is gone. And then the water’s gone. And then you’re gone.”
Today, more than a year later, Dr. Martin credits that six-hour experience with helping him overcome his depression and profoundly transforming his relationships with his daughter and friends. He ranks it among the most meaningful events of his life, which makes him a fairly typical member of a growing club of experimental subjects.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/12/science/12psychedelics.html


So, it seems to me if you're depressed, you should get some shrooms immediately. What are you waiting for? Why are you still reading this? If you are schizophrenic, they may do more harm than good, so proceed with caution.

 

[Wombat]

So concerning natural psychedelics like Mushrooms, Cactus, or Momosa bark...is there any credible argument to not making them a part of your life and routine? Is there any argument that can convince anyone that any substance changes the human condition any? Jesus said it is not what goes into a man's mouth that defiles a man, because a man is corrupted by sin, not by plants or meat or by drugs.

Our hearts are sinful, nothing but God can change that.

Having spent twenty years experimenting with various drugs and thirty years working with the drug affected....I would suggest....

It is akin to a game of chemical Russian Roulette...the drug (take your pick) is a gun with thousands/tens of thousands of empty chambers.

You might be one of the (biologically/physiologically) lucky ones who can take assorted drugs for decades and still be walking, talking and occasionally making sense....or...

You might experiment for months or years and one day wake up in the Psych Ward with drug induced psychosis....or...

You might be a one hit/one bong wonder and end up in the same Ward with drug induced Schizophrenia.
Any of these things and all the variations in between can and do occur...>nobody knows the odds< and >nobody knows *prior* to taking a drug< if they are going to be detrimentaly/dangerously reactive.

It&#8217;s a crap shoot.

Problem is...you are far far more likely to see and meet those who take drugs and get away with it (thus drug taking is well advertised)......those who don&#8217;t get away with it are usually seen/met in the Rehab/Institution and when they get out- often don&#8217;t go out much.

Anyone who tries to tell you halucionagenics /psychedelics and THC can&#8217;t harm you hasn&#8217;t spent time with the numerous (uncountable) unfortunate individuals who got a loaded chemical chamber and, metaphorically, blew their brains out.

"I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked, dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix, Angel-headed hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night,"
Allen Ginsberg, 'Howl'

..............................
If you are interested in the theme of drugs and religion you might find 'The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross' of interest-
Sacred Mushroom and the Cross (download torrent) - TPB
And/or Aldous Huxleys 'The Doors of Perception'
The Doors of Perception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Anyone who tries to tell you halucionagenics /psychedelics and THC can&#8217;t harm you hasn&#8217;t spent time with the numerous (uncountable) unfortunate individuals who got a loaded chemical chamber and, metaphorically, blew their brains out.

Except study after study have shown that marijuana has many beneficial/medical purposes, it is non-addictive, it has not killed a single person, any memory impairment is temporary, moderate consumption stimulates brain cell growth, it's much safer than tobacco and alcohol, it's not a gateway drug, it does not induce schizophrenia (or any similar symptoms), the legal punishment does far more harm than the drug itself (many drugs fall under this category), and it's just dumb to criminalize marijuana when there are so many benefits to reap from legalization.
Also you keep saying "drugs" but THC (the active ingredient in marijuana) is the only specific thing you mentioned. This to me strongly suggest you really don't know what you are talking about, probably do not know how different drugs effect the brain and how they effect the user, the side-effects, or really anything else about drugs. LSD, LSA, XTC, DXM, salvia divinorum, magic mushrooms, and peyote buttons are all psychedelic/hallucinogenic drugs, but the exact effects, risks, addictiveness, and deadliness all vary. Same goes for methamphetamine, the various other amphetamines, cocaine, heroine, and ephedrine. Some of these stimulants have legitimate medical purposes, some of them are extremely addictive, some of them have very hard crashes while some have very little to no crash, and someone who has ADHD will not get the speed rush from dextroamphetamine that someone who does not have ADHD will. Even with pills, the effects are varied, some of them can induce schizophrenic-like symptoms, some will reduce your appetite, and some (like Tylenol) can and most likely will be fatal in an overdose. So as you can see, there is simply too much to the subject of drugs to generalize.

 

[Vendetta]

I believe psychedelics are bad because as the term psychedelic implies "mind altering" and not a natural human state. Also acid, which is classified as a psychedelic, if overconsumed will create a continuous hallucination on the user....

***EDIT actually LSD has no recorded long term effects I apologize for misinformation

 

[Vendetta]

In addition people associate a good experience with drugs yet overlook long term use. Marijuana may not kill you like cigarettes but your memory recall overtime diminishes. I just don't see how mind altering drugs are beneficial. A good experience doesn't mean the psychedelic drug is helpful it means you had a euphoric experience and associated with whatever you are doing at the time.

 

[doppelganger]

They don't do anything you can't accomplish with dedicated meditation, introspection and philosophy, and present a significant potential danger to yourself and possibly to others.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Marijuana may not kill you like cigarettes but your memory recall overtime diminishes.

Memory impairments have been shown to be temporary, and grossly over-exaggerated.

 

[Vendetta]

Memory impairments have been shown to be temporary, and grossly over-exaggerated.

Can you provide evidence for that?

 

[Alceste]

They don't do anything you can't accomplish with dedicated meditation, introspection and philosophy, and present a significant potential danger to yourself and possibly to others.

Can you please describe some of these potential dangers to oneself and others that you feel the moderate use of pot entails? And mushrooms? Do you feel these drugs pose greater risks than alcohol?

 

[Alceste]

Can you provide evidence for that?

I AM evidence of that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Can you provide evidence for that?

Sure can:

Myth: Marijuana Impairs Memory and Cognition. Under the influence of marijuana, people are unable to think rationally and intelligently. Chronic marijuana use causes permanent mental impairment.

Fact: Marijuana produces immediate, temporary changes in thoughts, perceptions, and information processing. The cognitive process most clearly affected by marijuana is short-term memory. In laboratory studies, subjects under the influence of marijuana have no trouble remembering things they learned previously. However, they display diminished capacity to learn and recall new information. This diminishment only lasts for the duration of the intoxication. There is no convincing evidence that heavy long-term marijuana use permanently impairs memory or other cognitive functions.

Myths and Facts About Marijuana

 

[Shadow Wolf]

http://www.norml.org/ is another good site for information. Although it is more geared towards the legal aspects of marijuana, it does contain information about recreational, medical, and industrial use of marijuana.

 

[doppelganger]

Can you please describe some of these potential dangers to oneself and others that you feel the moderate use of pot entails? And mushrooms? Do you feel these drugs pose greater risks than alcohol?

Pot isn't a psychedelic (unless you're using a lot of it). Pot is less dangerous than alcohol. Mushrooms can cause severe anxiety and paranoia on the mild side of a bad trip, and a significant loss of the ability to understand sensory reality on the other end. Mushrooms also present risks of overdose and accidental poisoning.

Even if less dangerous than alcohol, as a means to altering perception, none of them is necessary. Hence, my answer to the OP.