What is the best argument against psychedelics?

[blackout]

Hopefully people make use of personal intuition and caution
as they make decisions to, or not to do, in their lives.

From Shoveling your driveway to Skydiving,
From High impact exercise to Frozen foods,
From Religion to Psychedelics.

All can seriously harm or kill.
They can all do and provide many other things as well though.
Both positive and negative.

Things impact us differently,
as we are all individuals.

While very good for you,
high impact exercise
for me, is very dangerous.

Still... there is no need to demonize or ban it on my account.

 

[Sunstone]

According to a friend, he's twice in his life experienced god. The first time was towards the end of a LSD trip. The second time was something that came about spontaneously some years later. The way he puts it, the LSD had some negative affects that masked whatever effects there might otherwise have been from experiencing god. But the spontaneous experience had no ill effects.

 

[Jacksnyte]

According to a friend, he's twice in his life experienced god. The first time was towards the end of a LSD trip. The second time was something that came about spontaneously some years later. The way he puts it, the LSD had some negative affects that masked whatever effects there might otherwise have been from experiencing god. But the spontaneous experience had no ill effects.

It all depends on set and setting. If one sets up the circumstances beforehand in detail for an acid trip, it can be very intensely rewarding. Doing acid in a party setting, or at a rave or a club, is courting disaster. either alone in a very comfortable environment, or with close trusted friends in a very relaxed, mellow setting. I don't know what was going on during your friend's trip, but a good ritualistic approach to the acid experience will give you the same if not better experience that it might take you years to reach through intense meditation.

 

[Jacksnyte]

According to a friend, he's twice in his life experienced god. The first time was towards the end of a LSD trip. The second time was something that came about spontaneously some years later. The way he puts it, the LSD had some negative affects that masked whatever effects there might otherwise have been from experiencing god. But the spontaneous experience had no ill effects.

Wonderful points!

 

[Vendetta]

Anyone can find God. I can find God sitting in a sauna for an hour like I said hallucinogens and their effects are not natural. Finding enlightenment while using psychadelics means you are over exaggerating the symptoms of increased neurotransmission. You are only experiencing sensations that are sensitive to you. Sorry there is no magic in psychadelics.

 

[Jacksnyte]

Anyone can find God. I can find God sitting in a sauna for an hour like I said hallucinogens and their effects are not natural. Finding enlightenment while using psychadelics means you are over exaggerating the symptoms of increased neurotransmission. You are only experiencing sensations that are sensitive to you. Sorry there is no magic in psychadelics.

I would say that they are the epitome of natural. They all come from natural sources, including LSD, which comes from rye ergot fungus. every single substance that enters your body causes a chemical change. No matter whether it is a case of beer, or a large pizza with anchovies. It's interesting how the majority of people who are so admant about psychedelics not being magical are usually the ones who have bought into all the fear-mongering of the last century or so. Let's take a look at the definition of magical, shall we?

mag·i·cal   
[maj-i-kuhl] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
produced by or as if by magic: The change in the appearance of the room was magical.
2.
mysteriously enchanting: a magical night.
3.
of or pertaining to magic.

I would say that this definition could fit quite a number of thing easily, including psychedelics. Heightened neurotransmission can be achieved through yogic breathing, meditation, Bryon Gyson's dream machine, and a plethora of other techniques. The reason humans have been using psychedelic substances to achieve the same results for millennia is that it allows you to reach an altered state in an evening instead of it taking possibly years! There is even some speculation in anthropological circles that religion began with someone ingesting a psychedelic substance!

 

[Sententia]

So concerning natural psychedelics like Mushrooms, Cactus, or Momosa bark...is there any credible argument to not making them a part of your life and routine? Is there any argument that can convince anyone that any substance changes the human condition any? Jesus said it is not what goes into a man's mouth that defiles a man, because a man is corrupted by sin, not by plants or meat or by drugs.

Our hearts are sinful, nothing but God can change that.

I do not think so.

Our hearts or sinful is a hysterical reminder of when people thought your heart was where your thoughts came from. (Phrases like I know it by heart... Etc)

Your heart is muscle. It just pumps blood... All the time...

As far as psychedelics go... I am not up on all the RF rules regarding discussion of substances that are illegal but shouldn't be.

 

[EverChanging]

Anyone can find God. I can find God sitting in a sauna for an hour like I said hallucinogens and their effects are not natural. Finding enlightenment while using psychadelics means you are over exaggerating the symptoms of increased neurotransmission. You are only experiencing sensations that are sensitive to you. Sorry there is no magic in psychadelics.

As I've said throughout this thread, I don't recommend drugs for everyone and strongly recommend caution and preparation, but the experiences I've read about in controlled drug trips sound genuinely mystical. No one said anything about these drugs being magic. They work according to natural laws. The fact is that a variety of stimuli can affect certain parts of the brain involved in mystical experience, including but not limited to drugs. There are pros and cons to drugs (as well as meditation and prayer, which can also sometimes be dangerous, if an inexperienced person jumps into it too fast). I recommend caution and respect of drugs and have disdain for those who think everyone should try acid. But to demonize them is just as stupid. Many beneficial treatments under trained professionals that showed great promise in treating people with psychological issues or facing death have been banned because of fear-mongering.

Still, I remain absolutely adamant that people with mental illness or a history of mental illness and who know about it are very stupid to try psychedelics, and even a person who has never experienced symptoms of mental illness can have a predisposition and not know it. Even some forms of hypnosis, like EMDR, which are capable of inducing a mystical experience strikingly similar to those described as near-death experiences and show evidence of providing lasting healing -- and all without drugs -- cannot be performed on someone with schizophrenia or bi polar disorder or a family history of the same.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I would like to see sources for this. Many of the "trip reports" I read from people having sober mystical experiences sound exactly the same as psychedelic experiences. Obviously one time meditation isn't going to do it, it takes discipline and many, sometimes years of repetition, hypnosis, praying, fasting, whatever to get there but the results are usually the same.

It depends on the drug. Just the legal psychedelics all have very different effects. For example Salvia is an extremely powerful trip that last for a short time and makes you feel very weird, and DXM can cause trips that alter your perception in an entirely different manner and a good dose will last for several hours.

 

[Vendetta]

To the two posters in response to my thread....

Being of the earth is not the same as being of the body. If a type of drug.increase.my serotonin levels that is not natural since my body has establish a type of serotonin level for me. Canabonoid receptors are increased when weed is.ingested. LSD inhibits dorsal raphe neurons and increased serotonin which may increase the experience of the taker. Not to mention the setting and age of the persons brain. Next time guys stop using personal experience as truth. There is nothing mystical about hallucinogens. The reason why I used the sauna statement was because overheating may cause heat stroke and even delusion (or hallucinate). Again look at neurotransmission. The only reason why we experience what we do are the effects of various neurons and brain areas and thus associating "happy" or "trippy" experiences. The fact that I can experience God without taking drugs or alcohol let's me know its not natural and even it was, why would God communicate with me while I just ingested something?

 

[EverChanging]

The only reason why we experience what we do are the effects of various neurons and brain areas and thus associating "happy" or "trippy" experiences. The fact that I can experience God without taking drugs or alcohol let's me know its not natural and even it was, why would God communicate with me while I just ingested something?

If you mean experiencing God without drugs is not natural -- or supernatural -- I disagree with you. Breathing meditation, centering prayer, chanting, prayers like the Rosary -- all of these things alter a person's consciousness, and scientific studies have shown that meditation even alters brain waves. The temporal lobe is also involved in mystical experience, and there are overlaps between drug-induced and spontaneously occurring mystical experiences. All of it is natural.

I do not recommend using drugs for a mystical experience unless under tightly controlled conditions. But however a mystical experience occurs, drug-induced, prayer-induced, spontaneously, or whatever, it involves the brain and our biology, which is increasingly being evidenced by the rather new field of neurotheology, the scientific study of spiritual or mystic states and/or experiences.

So, if you argue that a drug-induced mystical experience is not genuine solely because it alters brain function, the same is true of serious prayer, meditation, chanting, and so forth. The temporal lobe tends to be increasingly activated or unstable in spiritual experiences, as evidenced by the correlation of high levels of spirituality and spiritual experience with temporal lobe epilepsy.

This is how I personally distinguish a genuine mystical experience -- whether drug-induced or not -- from a more superficial experience masquerading as spiritual: genuine mystic experiences tend to create lasting changes. If a person says they experience God, but there are no lasting effects, I would think this experience in some way fundamentally differs from a similar experience that does produce transformation and healing.

I think mystical experiences unlikely -- but not impossible -- from a recreational drug trip, but under controlled conditions, the odds go up that a mystical experience will occur. After all, shamanism is very ancient and often associated with drugs in controlled settings, rather like mental health professionals were able to use drugs to help clients in this way back in the 70s before so many drugs were made completely illegal. Again, I think the test of the genuine experience is whether it produces lasting change. Such an experience must be deeper and more transformative than a similar one that has no lasting impact.

As for why God communicates with someone ingesting a drug, if that does happen, and not everyone calls it "God," we don't really know, but the brain and biology are major factors.

 

[Alceste]

As I've said throughout this thread, I don't recommend drugs for everyone and strongly recommend caution and preparation, but the experiences I've read about in controlled drug trips sound genuinely mystical. No one said anything about these drugs being magic. They work according to natural laws. The fact is that a variety of stimuli can affect certain parts of the brain involved in mystical experience, including but not limited to drugs. There are pros and cons to drugs (as well as meditation and prayer, which can also sometimes be dangerous, if an inexperienced person jumps into it too fast). I recommend caution and respect of drugs and have disdain for those who think everyone should try acid. But to demonize them is just as stupid. Many beneficial treatments under trained professionals that showed great promise in treating people with psychological issues or facing death have been banned because of fear-mongering.

Still, I remain absolutely adamant that people with mental illness or a history of mental illness and who know about it are very stupid to try psychedelics, and even a person who has never experienced symptoms of mental illness can have a predisposition and not know it. Even some forms of hypnosis, like EMDR, which are capable of inducing a mystical experience strikingly similar to those described as near-death experiences and show evidence of providing lasting healing -- and all without drugs -- cannot be performed on someone with schizophrenia or bi polar disorder or a family history of the same.

I would say everyone who wishes to experiment with hallucinogens should proceed with great caution to begin with, mentally ill or not. Be in a comfortable environment with people you trust, and don't gobble down a whole sheet of Funky Badger your first time out of the gates if you don't want your arms to feel like a couple of fortnights in a bad balloon or end up on a quack-handle.

 

[Thief]

The cultures that use psychedelics prepare their bodies and minds for a very long time before they do these drugs and use set and setting to ensure that the trip will be beneficial. These are powerful mind altering chemicals that deserve respect, if you use them like candy they are going to teach you a (bad) lesson in the long run.

This is what I said.


No.

Your negative response is noted and...disregarded.

Never see any documentaries...do you?

People do indeed respond to their dreams.
Drug induced or not.

That's why it's called hallucination.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

OT
''So concerning natural psychedelics like Mushrooms, Cactus, or Momosa bark...is there any credible argument to not making them a part of your life and routine? Is there any argument that can convince anyone that any substance changes the human condition any? Jesus said it is not what goes into a man's mouth that defiles a man, because a man is corrupted by sin, not by plants or meat or by drugs.''

Moderation in everything.

Depends on what you do..if you pilot a passenger plane I would rather you didn't...in case you get start getting flashbacks at 10,000 ft..bad times.

I think all drugs should be decriminalised and in some cases legalised for sale in a regulated way as alcohol currently is.
However in some jobs (like airline pilot) employers should be allowed to make your agreement not to use hallcinogenics period part of the employment contract.

 

[Jacksnyte]

To the two posters in response to my thread....

Being of the earth is not the same as being of the body. If a type of drug.increase.my serotonin levels that is not natural since my body has establish a type of serotonin level for me. Canabonoid receptors are increased when weed is.ingested. LSD inhibits dorsal raphe neurons and increased serotonin which may increase the experience of the taker. Not to mention the setting and age of the persons brain. Next time guys stop using personal experience as truth. There is nothing mystical about hallucinogens. The reason why I used the sauna statement was because overheating may cause heat stroke and even delusion (or hallucinate). Again look at neurotransmission. The only reason why we experience what we do are the effects of various neurons and brain areas and thus associating "happy" or "trippy" experiences. The fact that I can experience God without taking drugs or alcohol let's me know its not natural and even it was, why would God communicate with me while I just ingested something?

Why wouldn't he/she/it? Doesn't make it any less valid.

 

[no-body]

There you go. Most people aren't going to do that. Also, they are not the same. The source was posted up-thread, and quoted. HOPKINS SCIENTISTS SHOW HALLUCINOGEN IN MUSHROOMS CREATES UNIVERSAL

That is interesting. I think that they chose people who already had a spiritual background to be a big factor though.

 

[Songbird]

What is the best argument against psychedelics?

My brother.

 

[no-body]

Your negative response is noted and...disregarded.

Never see any documentaries...do you?

People do indeed respond to their dreams.
Drug induced or not.

That's why it's called hallucination.

I'm not going to get into the mechanics of it because I know you are only going to disregard me anyways if I look up and post the info. You claimed drugs make you "dream when awake" which is flat out wrong.

Sometimes you can get so engrossed in your drug induced thinking that you might do something crazy and react to a hallucination but for the most part a drug user knows a hallucination is a hallucination.

 

[Jacksnyte]

I'm not going to get into the mechanics of it because I know you are only going to disregard me anyways if I look up and post the info. You claimed drugs make you "dream when awake" which is flat out wrong.

Sometimes you can get so engrossed in your drug induced thinking that you might do something crazy and react to a hallucination but for the most part a drug user knows a hallucination is a hallucination.

Hard getting past all those after school specials in the 70s and 80s, isn't it? The propaganda machine works very well!

 

[Thief]

I'm not going to get into the mechanics of it because I know you are only going to disregard me anyways if I look up and post the info. You claimed drugs make you "dream when awake" which is flat out wrong.

Actually...it's dead on.

Sometimes you can get so engrossed in your drug induced thinking that you might do something crazy and react to a hallucination but for the most part a drug user knows a hallucination is a hallucination.

Your ability to dream is controlled by your chemistry.
And the chemistry that confuses the brain does so because the molecule resembles the natural stuff your brain uses.

As for acting on your dreams....
I suppose a dream of outrageous proportions would be obvious.

But some people dream realistically.

Maybe it's not the recreational drug users you might be wary of.

How about the experimenter, who thinks he's realistic in his expectations?...
the guy who thinks he can handle it.