What is the best argument for an atheist?

[kaisersose]

When you say "they" whom are you referring to and to what authority do they have to speak for the actions or inactions of God? Also I think my question is a perfectly fair one to ask by any prudent person atheist or not.

I mean, theists who enter into debates have almost been asked this question and they all have answers, though they are not acceptable to me. But this isn't a question that would make theists sweat (most of them, anyway).

Your second statement represents my fundamental problem with many people of faith. They deliberately and (sometimes) forcefully stiffle the asking of questions that can be uncomfortable. Rather than simply answering the question, or even making a good attempt at it, most people simply get defensive as if any question is a direct attack on their faith. Why is that?

It is my opinion, that their belief is fragile. At some level, they have several unanswered questions, but fear keeps these questions buried inside. When you ask them the same questions, their fragile belief system is threatened and the fear comes out.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

you're speaking of wisdom, right?

It goes by many names, but yes, that is what I'm talking about.

 

[Copernicus]

I think most of the time, arguments between athiests and theists could be avoided if both parties the conversation would start like this.
"While I don't believe in your God, I feel that it is impossible to debate belief and it would be dissrespectful to tell you that your belief structure is wrong"
and the theist would say,
"While I would like you to believe in my God, it is impossible to debate belief with disbelief and it would be dissrespectful to say your lack of sharing my belief is reprehensible."

I do not agree that arguments between atheists and theists should be avoided. We debate and argue with others because we want our ideas to compete with those of others. Anyone who posts in this forum, for example, is committing themselves to open debate. I think that people who want to avoid debates or who want to suppress them should refrain from getting into the fray. My assumption is that someone who doesn't want to discuss the subject should be left alone, as long as that person doesn't try to force his or her opinion on me or to tell me that I have no right to discuss the matter with others who are inclined to discuss it.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

I could stand in the middle of a field in a thunderstorm and shout
"God! strike me dead now!"

 

[naikaidiver]

I do not agree that arguments between atheists and theists should be avoided. We debate and argue with others because we want our ideas to compete with those of others. Anyone who posts in this forum, for example, is committing themselves to open debate. I think that people who want to avoid debates or who want to suppress them should refrain from getting into the fray. My assumption is that someone who doesn't want to discuss the subject should be left alone, as long as that person doesn't try to force his or her opinion on me or to tell me that I have no right to discuss the matter with others who are inclined to discuss it.

I don't think I did a very good job at getting my point across with the beginning of my post.

What I was trying to show was that while debate is healthy, arguing (not the same as debate) is seldom productive. Once either side has retreated into a purely defensive posture, reason is nearly impossible. Its simply more civil, to back away, and try again later.

I joined this site for the sole purpose of debate and discussion with people from all belief structures. Living in the Bible belt as an Atheist from Seattle teaches one to be.... "cautious" when discussing sensitive subject and some habits die hard. I'll try to by more direct in the future.

 

[kaisersose]

I could stand in the middle of a field in a thunderstorm and shout
"God! strike me dead NOW!"

An easier way, without getting wet, would be when you are driving on the freeway and tell God to have a drunk driver hit you.

Also, I am curious about the shouting part. Is it necessary ? God should be able to hear whispers, I would think.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

An easier way, without getting wet, would be when you are driving on the freeway and tell God to have a drunk driver hit you.

Also, I am curious about the shouting part. Is it necessary ? God should be able to hear whispers, I would think.

No I was just actually "thinking" out loud.

 

[Copernicus]

I joined this site for the sole purpose of debate and discussion with people from all belief structures. Living in the Bible belt as an Atheist from Seattle teaches one to be.... "cautious" when discussing sensitive subject and some habits die hard. I'll try to by more direct in the future.

Hah! OK, sorry if I sounded a little huffy. I am an atheist in Seattle (Bellevue, actually), so I at least understand where you are coming from.

 

[kaisersose]

Hah! OK, sorry if I sounded a little huffy. I am an atheist in Seattle (Bellevue, actually), so I at least understand where you are coming from.

I am an atheist in Bellevue too. What is it about this place ?

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

I just think just explaining the scale of the universe, especially with inflationary cosmology could make you wonder, Geeeeeeeeze! I could not possibly imagine a God with arms that long.

 

[waitasec]

It goes by many names, but yes, that is what I'm talking about.

wisdom is knowing by experience
you know what the word delicious means
but not until you experience a delicious pastry do you have the wisdom of a delicious pastry

are you implying you get wisdom through faith?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

wisdom is knowing by experience
you know what the word delicious means
but not until you experience a delicious pastry do you have the wisdom of a delicious pastry

are you implying you get wisdom through faith?

Wisdom is gained in many ways. Faith is just one of those ways. Faith allows you to experience things of faith. That's all.

 

[waitasec]

Wisdom is gained in many ways. Faith is just one of those ways. Faith allows you to experience things of faith. That's all.

can you explain to me how faith gives you wisdom?

 

[Orias]

The same argument can be made the other way too and can also be interpreted as an excuse for failure. But that is not something we need to discuss.

So going into an argument already taking out the consideration of the others logic is an excuse for what type of failure? How is this statement even relevant to anything?

The simplest and most common response to this is - if God can exist by himself without creation, so can the universe.

But like all infants, a mother is needed to help them move along. Its not like a mother gives birth to a child and then just expects it to survive on its own.

I know that all info I have about God, right from the dictionary word to the religious books - all came to me from humans. And as said humans are unable to provide mutually aceptable evidence - just as in the case of Santa Claus - I am unable to acceept God and Santa Claus as real. I have to dismiss them as figments of fertile imaginations.

And I know this for sure - yes.

Agreeable. But perhaps you haven't taken into consideration the nature of these concepts and the motives and meanings behind them. It is natural for man to accept and deny God, as it is natural for man to create and destroy Gods. If man has created a God and given a reason for it to exist, then it must, as it is a definition of an aspect of Life, what we are. There is obvious reasons why Gods are viewed as factual basis and Santa is not. If Santa was even close to being able to be compared to God, then perhaps your argument would have a solid foundation, but it does not. Santa brings presents to children on one night of the year, whereas God created everything that is and isn't. Do you see comparable logic there? Its common sense.

Obviously all of these sources are from man, but you have to take into consideration what man is, nature, and all things man expresses, expresses nature for what it is. The logical basis of God is defining reasons for why, and not a redundant holiday celebration.

Review your dogma.

There can be no discussion on something undefined.

Sure there can, we are having one right now.

God is not defined, because neither you nor I, truly know the definition of God and what divinity stands for. Besides your silly dictionary definitions. There is more to it than a sloth like perceived manner.

 

[dogsgod]

God?







----------

 

[strikeviperMKII]

can you explain to me how faith gives you wisdom?

Faith puts you in the 'creation' position in life. The poor, the meek, the sick, the lowly, the downtrodden...all of these positions are not positions of power. They are the creation, not the creators. Faith puts you in the position and shows you the value of that position. To understand faith, you have to put yourself in that position.

 

[dogsgod]

The rich: You will not inherit anything.

The meek: Oh, ok.

 

[waitasec]

Faith puts you in the 'creation' position in life. The poor, the meek, the sick, the lowly, the downtrodden...all of these positions are not positions of power. They are the creation, not the creators. Faith puts you in the position and shows you the value of that position. To understand faith, you have to put yourself in that position.

but anyone can learn this lesson in wisdom without faith

i still don't see how faith brings wisdom in understanding the unknown...

 

[Gloone]

but anyone can learn this lesson in wisdom without faith

i still don't see how faith brings wisdom in understanding the unknown...

Faith is something you obtain on your own, you find understanding in your faith and gain wisdom.
Wisdom: (definition) the ability to make sensible decisions and judgments based on personal knowledge and experience

 

[waitasec]

Faith is something you obtain on your own, you find understanding in your faith and gain wisdom.

faith is believing in things unseen
wisdom is gained through experience

Wisdom: (definition) the ability to make sensible decisions and judgments based on personal knowledge and experience

what would you tell the parents of the children that died because they thought god told them through faith that god would heal them?
would you tell them they didn't have faith? or the right kind?
faith without works is dead...

in this case what would constitute as faith gained through wisdom?