What is the best argument for an atheist?

[waitasec]

is there a reason someone would use a fictional book written 2000 years ago to draw a conclusion of what faith really is???

Not everyone is capable of being intellectually gifted. So it might be required or needed for some.

:biglaugh:
this is too good to pass up gloone...:yes:

what would you tell the parents of the children that died because they thought god told them through faith that god would heal them?
would you tell them they didn't have faith? or the right kind?
faith without works is dead...

I would tell them I am not real sure what type of god they believe in. The bible says that God is the giver of life as is Jesus for he is the way.

:biglaugh:

Not everyone is capable of being intellectually gifted. So it might be required or needed for some.

 

[Gloone]

:biglaugh:
this is too good to pass up gloone...:yes:




:biglaugh:

yawn... glad you find that funny. You referenced the bible and other things too...
We can always pull out the mythology and pagan books. They have concepts of heaven, hell, and actual names of gods instead of generalizing it into a single one. You probably won't find one on faith though. That is probably something you will have to find on your own.

 

[waitasec]

yawn... glad you find that funny. You referenced the bible and other things too...
We can always pull out the mythology and pagan books. They have concepts of heaven, hell, and actual names of gods instead of generalizing it into a single one. You probably won't find one on faith though. That is probably something you will have to find on your own.

been there done that
:bonk:

 

[Gloone]

been there done that
:bonk:

So did you get anywhere or did you find it to be a waste of time?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I'm late in the conversation, so I have an annoying question: is the current discussion about faith? If so, I have a concept about that. Faith, while required to believe in god, as god cannot be either proven to exist or proven not to exist, doesn't necessarily fall into the category of god-only. What I mean by that, is that faith is a somewhat important idea in Buddhism, but there is no god-idea that one has faith in. The faith one has is in the Dharma and oneself, as containing the seed of Buddha-hood. Of course, I might be way off in what's going on, so please correct me if I am.

 

[Gloone]

I'm late in the conversation, so I have an annoying question: is the current discussion about faith? If so, I have a concept about that. Faith, while required to believe in god, as god cannot be either proven to exist or proven not to exist, doesn't necessarily fall into the category of god-only. What I mean by that, is that faith is a somewhat important idea in Buddhism, but there is no god-idea that one has faith in. The faith one has is in the Dharma and oneself, as containing the seed of Buddha-hood. Of course, I might be way off in what's going on, so please correct me if I am.

Aye, the discussion moved to faith. Are you saying faith is self-served and meant to serve a greater-higher purpose? How common is it for a Buddhist to reach Buddha-hood.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

What if I said I am moving out because there is a snake in my house, I need parks and wildlife officers to clear it.
So they took a quick inspection through the house and looked in every room and declared, we don't think there is a snake in your house you can move back in now.
Then I moved in and still declared the next day the snake was still there could you give a more thorough search.
So this time they were much more thorough and looked through every cupboard behind the washing machine and under the beds and under the floor, again they declared there was no snake and was safe to move back in.
Then again I moved back in and declared the next day the snake is still there, could you please search much more thoroughly this time.
So this time they pulled they house to bits and looked inside the ceiling cavities and even in the wall civilities and nailed it all back together again.
This time they declared. "look where we looked, we have looked absolutely everywhere and we can assure you there is absolute no snake."
I was pretty satisfied at this stage and I moved back in, but much to the exasperation of wildlife officers the next day I still declared the snake was still there.
They said that is impossible you saw where we looked. But I said "but the spiritual essence of the snake is still there.”
They then joked (laughing to each other) “perhaps you need to bring in an exorcist.”

Well what has this to do with God? The current school of thought about the nature of God interpreted by many theologians is no more than just a "spiritual essence" of what was once considered to be a real person
just as that snake was invisaged as being a "real snake" by the wildlife authorities when it was first reported to them.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Aye, the discussion moved to faith. Are you saying faith is self-served and meant to serve a greater-higher purpose? How common is it for a Buddhist to reach Buddha-hood.

Yes, faith is more for us, than for any higher purpose. I'm not sure how common it is for a Buddhist to reach Buddha-hood, but, probably nowadays, it's getting less and less common, and takes more and more future lives to attain. This is why the Jodo Shu sect was formed, also called Pure Land. It's a devotional school, which teaches that devotion to the Bodhisattva Amitabha Buddha ensures that one can enter the Pure Land, where it's easier to attain Buddha-hood and enlightenment.

 

[waitasec]

So did you get anywhere or did you find it to be a waste of time?

i wouldn't call it a waste of time, because that experience help shape me to be the person i am today.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

yes it is a definition, but of what word?

Seems you already know, so why would there be any point in me telling you?

what like paying taxes for the 1st time?

If you get frustrated when paying taxes, then there is something about taxes, or linked to taxes that you haven't dealt with before. You probably know what it is, but haven't put forth the time and energy to resolve it.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

is there a reason someone would use a fictional book written 2000 years ago to draw a conclusion of what faith really is???

It is a tool. If you need to put a nail in the wall, do you not use a hammer?

 

[waitasec]

Seems you already know, so why would there be any point in me telling you?

i'm trying to make a point...

"A desire of some good, accompanied with an expectation of obtaining it, or a belief that it is obtainable; confidence;"

here, i'll give 3 choices
trust
hope
faith

If you get frustrated when paying taxes, then there is something about taxes, or linked to taxes that you haven't dealt with before. You probably know what it is, but haven't put forth the time and energy to resolve it.

i still fail to see what faith has anything to do with this

 

[Gloone]

It is a tool. If you need to put a nail in the wall, do you not use a hammer?

I thought you were going to say; "It is a tool. If you need to put a nail in the wall, use the bible." :sarcastic
-Person A: "Give me something to put this nail in the wall"
-Person B: Grabs the closest thing around and says "Here this bible might work".

 

[Gloone]

Yes, faith is more for us, than for any higher purpose. I'm not sure how common it is for a Buddhist to reach Buddha-hood, but, probably nowadays, it's getting less and less common, and takes more and more future lives to attain. This is why the Jodo Shu sect was formed, also called Pure Land. It's a devotional school, which teaches that devotion to the Bodhisattva Amitabha Buddha ensures that one can enter the Pure Land, where it's easier to attain Buddha-hood and enlightenment.

When you say future lives are you referring to past lives that are reincarnated or more along the lines of life stages / experiences like you would encounter or endure on your journey to Nirvana to reach enlightenment? Also you mentioned Pure-land is that a way to reach enlightenment by bypassing Nirvana? Because Nirvana doesn't really seem to be so much as a self-serve it is more like a teacher. For a greater purpose or understanding.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

i'm trying to make a point...

"A desire of some good, accompanied with an expectation of obtaining it, or a belief that it is obtainable; confidence;"

here, i'll give 3 choices
trust
hope
faith

Make your point. You obviously don't need me to make it for you.

i still fail to see what faith has anything to do with this

Why not?

 

[waitasec]

Make your point. You obviously don't need me to make it for you.

"A desire of some good, accompanied with an expectation of obtaining it, or a belief that it is obtainable; confidence;"
i think this gets mixed up with faith...but it's a definition of hope.
since faith is defined in the bible i would imagine as believers of the good news one would subscribe to it's definition.
"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see"

faith without works is also dead.
that of which you are confidently hoping for is not valid unless one actually lives as though their aspirations have come to pass, would you agree with this so far?

Why not?

because one does not gain wisdom through osmosis
which is what you seem to be saying...

 

[strikeviperMKII]

"A desire of some good, accompanied with an expectation of obtaining it, or a belief that it is obtainable; confidence;"
i think this gets mixed up with faith...but it's a definition of hope.
since faith is defined in the bible i would imagine as believers of the good news one would subscribe to it's definition.
"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see"

faith without works is also dead.
that of which you are confidently hoping for is not valid unless one actually lives as though their aspirations have come to pass, would you agree with this so far?

Sure.

because one does not gain wisdom through osmosis
which is what you seem to be saying...

Wisdom requires one to experience. I have said this.

 

[waitasec]

Sure.
Wisdom requires one to experience. I have said this.

this the thing and where we might have to go around again...
tell me where experience comes to play if you are confidently hoping for wisdom?

 

[Orias]

this the thing and where we might have to go around again...
tell me where experience comes to play if you are confidently hoping for wisdom?

It doesn't.

It comes to the point where hope is only valid if it is fulfilled, otherwise your just useless if you sit around and expect or wait for something you want to happen, and if you get up and do it, well then its not really hope now is it?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

this the thing and where we might have to go around again...
tell me where experience comes to play if you are confidently hoping for wisdom?

If you are hoping for wisdom, you are doing something yes? Actions lead to experience, even passive ones.

It comes to the point where hope is only valid if it is fulfilled, otherwise your just useless if you sit around and expect or wait for something you want to happen, and if you get up and do it, well then its not really hope now is it?

Whether your hope is fulfilled or not, you will still gain experience of hoping for something. Be it how not to hope for something or how to hope for something, you still gain experience.