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What is the meaning of Acts 1:9-11?

Yokefellow

Active Member
Why do you think that a Spiritual/Heavenly Body is physical (comprised of Atoms)? What is your evidence?

Jesus said so...

Luke 24:39
"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."


The above happened after his Resurrection.

Angels are physical as well, yet they can appear and disappear. They can exist here, or in the New Heavens and New Earth.

Maybe 'Supernatural' is a more definitive word that can describe what we are being taught...

"Supernatural refers to phenomena or entities that are beyond the laws of nature."


We are all prisoners who are bound 'under the Law'. I believe the Law also pertains to the Laws of Physics, not just rules and regulations.

Why do you think that heaven is a physical world? What is your evidence?

For one, there is a physical city (New Jerusalem) that is described in detail. There would be no need for a city if everyone were non-physical. How would they even interact with it?

The Tree of Life is for healing. There would be no need for healing if there were not a physical body there to heal.

We are meant to exist as Tripartite Beings...
  • Body
  • Soul
  • Spirit
It is the Trinity.

Why do you think The New Heavens and New Earth is all one dimension? What is your evidence?

I am not sure what you mean by 'one dimension'. I believe in many dimensions as well parallel universes. John was transported to a parallel universe and back.

I believe that the New Earth refers to this physical world, it is the Kingdom of God on earth that Jesus told us to pray for.

That sounds like some sort of New World Order agenda to try and 'unite humanity' under a single world religion. I do not believe Baha'i is compatible with Christianity.

The Christian Bible teaches that this Heaven and Earth will be dissolved.

The Kingdom of God is already in heaven, as the verse below says - "as it is in heaven".

There are many ways to interpret that verse...

Matthew 6:10 (The Message Bible)
"Set the world right; Do what's best - as above, so below.
" :)


As for the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven, most do not understand what it is. The Kingdom has leaven in it...

Matthew 13:33
"Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."


There are problems with this universe that cannot be repaired. It must ultimately be destroyed.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You may be right that a spiritual body is not subject to gravity, but that does not really matter when it comes to ascending to heaven imo.
No, it doesn't matter since the spiritual body is not a physical object so it is not subject to gravity.

Gravity is the force that pulls all objects in the universe toward each other. On Earth, gravity pulls all objects "downward" toward the center of the planet.
This site gives the authoritative Baha'i interpretation of the resurrection and ascension. They did not happen literally.
No, Baha'is do not believe they happened literally. I mean we do not believe that Jesus literally rise from His grave or literally ascended into heaven.
The Bible Jesus or the Baha'i Jesus?
There is no such thing as a Bible Jesus and a Baha'i Jesus. There is just Jesus.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And Shoghi Effendi was able to say what Baha'is believed about the resurrection and ascension of Jesus.
It is more correct to say that Baha'is believe what Shoghi Effendi said about the resurrection and ascension of Jesus.

Baha'u'llah described the meaning of resurrection in general but He did not say anything about the resurrection of Jesus.
However, Baha'u'llah did say the following about the ascension. He said that after Jesus was crucified Jesus ascended to the fourth Heaven.

“Similarly, call thou to mind the day when the Jews, who had surrounded Jesus, Son of Mary, were pressing Him to confess His claim of being the Messiah and Prophet of God, so that they might declare Him an infidel and sentence Him to death. Then, they led Him away, He Who was the Day-star of the heaven of divine Revelation, unto Pilate and Caiaphas, who was the leading divine of that age. The chief priests were all assembled in the palace, also a multitude of people who had gathered to witness His sufferings, to deride and injure Him. Though they repeatedly questioned Him, hoping that He would confess His claim, yet Jesus held His peace and spake not. Finally, an accursed of God arose and, approaching Jesus, adjured Him saying: “Didst thou not claim to be the Divine Messiah? Didst thou not say, ‘I am the King of Kings, My word is the Word of God, and I am the breaker of the Sabbath day?’” Thereupon Jesus lifted up His head and said: “Beholdest thou not the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and might?” These were His words, and yet consider how to outward seeming He was devoid of all power except that inner power which was of God and which had encompassed all that is in heaven and on earth. How can I relate all that befell Him after He spoke these words? How shall I describe their heinous behaviour towards Him? They at last heaped on His blessed Person such woes that He took His flight unto the fourth Heaven.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 132-133
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Jesus was not resurrected into a 'transformed physical body.' When the physical body of Jesus died, Jesus was transformed/changed from a physical body into a spiritual body and He still has that spiritual body now. That spiritual body is immortal and incorruptible and can only live in heaven, it cannot live on earth.

So the story of the resurrection and ascension have no literal reality for a Baha'i.
The Baha'i Jesus or the Bible Jesus?
Either Jesus is a prisoner in heaven or is free to go wherever He want to go.
Angels can go to heaven or earth but the Manifestations are stuck in heaven? Yes, OK, sure.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No, it doesn't matter since the spiritual body is not a physical object so it is not subject to gravity.

It does not matter. Jesus has power over the laws of nature.

No, Baha'is do not believe they happened literally. I mean we do not believe that Jesus literally rise from His grave or literally ascended into heaven.

Then you already believe that the resurrection and ascension story are not literal.
You like to think that you have some independance of thought and belief but really you believe what Baha'i tells you to believe about the Bible.
When the false Christ tells you that the Bible does not really mean that the same Jesus will return the same way His disciples saw Him ascend, that is what you believe.

There is no such thing as a Bible Jesus and a Baha'i Jesus. There is just Jesus.

Yet there is such a thing as a false Christ according to the Bible.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So the story of the resurrection and ascension have no literal reality for a Baha'i.
The Baha'i Jesus or the Bible Jesus?
No, we do not believe that they literally happened the way it was described in the Bible, but Jesus did not describe it so it's no big deal to me.

There is only one Jesus. People can choose to believe in the Jesus as the Bible described Him or the way Baha'ullah described him.
Either Jesus is a prisoner in heaven or is free to go wherever He want to go.
Angels can go to heaven or earth but the Manifestations are stuck in heaven? Yes, OK, sure.
Jesus is free to go to any of the worlds of God that Baha'u'llah mentioned but earth is not one of those worlds.
Spiritual bodies to not come back to a physical world once they are in heaven.

Where did you get the idea that angels can go to heaven or earth?
There are mortal angels on earth and immortal angels in heaven but they don't go back and forth. Once a mortal angel ascends to heaven it remains in heaven in a spiritual body as an immortal angel.

“Let not your hearts be perturbed, O people, when the glory of My Presence is withdrawn, and the ocean of My utterance is stilled. In My presence amongst you there is a wisdom, and in My absence there is yet another, inscrutable to all but God, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing. Verily, We behold you from Our realm of glory, and shall aid whosoever will arise for the triumph of Our Cause with the hosts of the Concourse on high and a company of Our favored angels.”​

Only in TV programs like Highway to Heaven or Touched by an Angel do angels come back to earth after they died and went to heaven.
The angels in heaven can guide us and help us, but they do that from the spiritual realm.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It does not matter. Jesus has power over the laws of nature.
Yes He did have power over the laws of nature but that doesn't mean that He used that power to do what you believe He did.

Question.—It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.

Answer.—The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

Some Answered Questions, p. 100

22: MIRACLES
Then you already believe that the resurrection and ascension story are not literal.
You like to think that you have some independance of thought and belief but really you believe what Baha'i tells you to believe about the Bible.
Nobody tells me what to believe.

It would not matter one iota if I was a Baha'i or not. I would never have even read one page of the Bible if I was not a Baha'i.
I would not care about Jesus or revere Him if I was not a Baha'i. That reverence comes from what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha wrote about Jesus.
Had I never discovered the Baha'i Faith I would probably believe in God but I would not ascribe to any religion. I would be a nonreligious believer.
When the false Christ tells you that the Bible does not really mean that the same Jesus will return the same way His disciples saw Him ascend, that is what you believe.
If I had it in writing in Jesus' own words that He ascended and was going to return the same way then I would believe it, but there is no reason for me to believe what it says in Acts. Acts is according to Luke but Luke did not even know Jesus.
Yet there is such a thing as a false Christ according to the Bible.
The Bible says that because there have been many men who claimed to be Christ, and they were false.
Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Christ. He claimed to be the return of the Christ spirit in another man.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The disciples could not see Jesus when He was hidden in a cloud, so the angels asked why they were looking into the sky.
It was the angels who said, this same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven. and what they said shows that they had seen Jesus go up.
Actually it does not matter if it was the angels or the author of Acts who said that, it still shows what was meant by the story.
I already know what was meant by the story, but that doesn't mean I believe the story line. Anyone can wrote a story but that doesn't mean it is true.
Our corruptible natural bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Corruption cannot inherit incorruption. So the natural body is changed to an immortal and incorruptible body.
1Cor 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
I know that and that is what I have been saying all along.
To me it is the Bible which is the truth. The Bible is inspired by God.
A spiritual body is not a spirit (as the resurrected body of Jesus was not) and was not invisible, and could ascend to and live in heaven and can come back the same way it ascended.
The author of Acts was Luke, the companion of Paul, the one who wrote 1Cor 15:40, but as I said, it was an angel who said that the same Jesus would return as they had seen Him ascend.
I never claimed that a spiritual body is a spirit nor did I say that it is invisible.
Even it a spiritual body could come back the same way it ascended the spiritual body o Jesus is not coming back that way.

(John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11)
I suppose that is true, however there is no indication in the gospels that there was any other Son of Man but Jesus. The only place that comes from is Baha'i,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, or imo, the false Christ.
Christians believe that everything in the Bible is about Jesus, but it’s not.

Son of man is not a title that belongs exclusively to Jesus as is the title Son of God.
37 Bible verses about Son Of Man

Son of man

"Son of man", "son of Adam", or "like a man", are phrases used in the Hebrew Bible, various apocalyptic works of the intertestamental period, and in the Greek New Testament. In the indefinite form ("son of Adam", "son of man", "like a man") used in the Hebrew Bible it is a form of address, or it contrasts human beings against God and the angels, or contrasts foreign nations (like Persia and Babylon), which are often represented as animals in apocalyptic writings (bear, goat, or ram), with Israel which is represented as human (a "son of man"), or it signifies an eschatological human figure.

In its indefinite form it is used in the Greek Old Testament, Biblical apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha. The Greek New Testament uses the earlier indefinite form while introducing a novel definite form, "the son of man."

Son of man - Wikipedia
It is not that yesterdays good news has suddenly become not true or out of date for people of today.
2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and encourage with every form of patient instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. 4 So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
Yesterday's good news gospel message is still good but it is not news anymore since everyone in the world has heard it.
If people wanted to be saved by the cross sacrifice they have had plenty of opportunities.

The gospel massage has accomplished what it is going to accomplish so now it is time to move on. I see no point in preaching old news when we have a new message that is pertinent for today's world.
Acts 1:9-11 is just an obvious example of why Baha'u'llah is not the return of Jesus. I, as a Bible believer, do not have to go past that,,,,,,,,,,,,, but I have and have seen the same sort of examples in most things Baha'i says about the meanings in the Bible.
If Baha'u'llah is a Messenger from God then we should believe him.
We can tell if he is however by if he agrees with the Bible, and clearly what Baha'i teaches changes the whole meaning of the Bible and does not agree with it.
Baha'u'llah is not the return of Jesus and He never claimed to be, but since Jesus never promised to return this is exactly what we would expect to see, another man who was the fulfillment of the return of Christ.

Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. That means that the return of Christ has to be another Person.

It does not matter what the men who wrote the Bible intended for it to mean since that is history. Nobody knew that it would not be the same Jesus who would return back then, and that is why we have verses like Acts1:9-11. You cannot look at a book written 2000 years ago and expect that people who wrote it would know what has happened since then.

The disciples did not know, but even 2000 years ago, Jesus knew He was not going to return to earth
.John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11

With regard to the return of Christ, it is what Christianity teaches that changes the intended meaning of the Bible.
Sad but true, since the Christians have led millions of people astray by teaching that the same man Jesus is going to return.
How long will this go on till they finally face the fact that Jesus is not coming back to earth?
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Jesus said so...

Luke 24:39
"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."


The above happened after his Resurrection.
No, Jesus did not say that. Luke said that Jesus said that.
Luke never even knew Jesus and this chapter was written about 200 years after Jesus walked the earth.

Luke 24:51-53, continued with John 1:1-16, on Papyrus 75, written about AD 175-225.
Angels are physical as well, yet they can appear and disappear. They can exist here, or in the New Heavens and New Earth.
There are angels on earth but they are physical human beings, and they don't appear and disappear.
For one, there is a physical city (New Jerusalem) that is described in detail. There would be no need for a city if everyone were non-physical. How would they even interact with it?
I believe that what is described about the New Jerusalem in the Book of Revelation is symbolic, not a literal description of heaven.
The Tree of Life is for healing. There would be no need for healing if there were not a physical body there to heal.
The Tree of Life is not a physical tree.

Baha’is believe that the tree of life is the Word of God which bestows eternal life. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His Manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits. Eternal life is a quality of life, of being near to God; it is not physical life, but spiritual life. God never created the physical body to live forever. Once the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world where it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in the heavenly realm.

It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)
We are meant to exist as Tripartite Beings...
  • Body
  • Soul
  • Spirit
It is the Trinity.
We are meant to exist with a body and a soul. While living on earth which is a physical world we have a physical body and the soul works through the physical body. After we die and go to heaven the soul works through the spiritual body.
I am not sure what you mean by 'one dimension'. I believe in many dimensions as well parallel universes. John was transported to a parallel universe and back.
I believe there is a physical dimension and a spiritual dimension, but I don't know about any parallel universes.
That sounds like some sort of New World Order agenda to try and 'unite humanity' under a single world religion. I do not believe Baha'i is compatible with Christianity.
Of course I know that Baha'i is not compatible with Christianity. I also know that Christians are not in agreement with each other as per what happens when we die.
The Christian Bible teaches that this Heaven and Earth will be dissolved.
And that is an example of Christians not agreeing with each other. I know Christians who believe that Earth will be dissolved but I know no Christians who believe that Heaven will be dissolved.
There are many ways to interpret that verse...

Matthew 6:10 (The Message Bible)
"Set the world right; Do what's best - as above, so below.
" :)

Of course there is more than one way to interpret that verse.
As for the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven, most do not understand what it is. The Kingdom has leaven in it...

Matthew 13:33
"Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."
The parable describes what happens when a woman adds leaven (old, fermented dough, usually containing lactobacillus and yeast) to a large quantity of flour (about 81⁄2 gallons or 38 litres). The living organisms in the leaven grow overnight, so that by morning the entire quantity of dough has been raised.

Interpretation

Parable - The Leaven by John Everett Millais, ca.1860, Aberdeen Art Gallery
Ben Witherington suggests that this parable is part of a pair,[4] and shares its meaning with the preceding parable, that of the mustard seed, namely the powerful growth of the Kingdom of God from small beginnings.[2] The final outcome is inevitable once the natural process of growth has begun.[3] Adolf Jülicher identifies three parts to a parable or similitude (extended simile or metaphor): a picture part (Bildhälfte), a reality part (Sachhälfte), and a tertium comparationis.[5] The picture part is a woman making bread with leaven, the reality part is the kingdom of God, and the point of comparison is the powerful growth of the kingdom from small beginnings.

Although leaven symbolises evil influences elsewhere in the New Testament (see Luke 12:1),[2] it is not generally interpreted that way in this parable.[2][3][4][6][7][8] However, a few commentators do see the leaven as reflecting future corrupting influences in the Church.[9][10]

Parable of the Leaven - Wikipedia
There are problems with this universe that cannot be repaired. It must ultimately be destroyed.
Why the whole universe?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
If you believe the stories are not true then why are you worried about what they say?
One minute you are trying to sus out what and even if the disciples saw Jesus ascend and what sort of body it was and then the next minute you are saying the whole thing is just rubbish anyway.

But when your teahers one minute say that the gospel story is the memories of the disciples of Jesus and the next minute say that the resurrection and ascension stories are just allegories, what more can I expect from your teachers' disciples.
The story can be, as you believe, literal. And literal is how "true" believers in Jesus should take it. Jesus is your Savior. He did all those miracles. And when the gospels say he rose from the dead, that's what they meant. And in Acts, if it says that Jesus ascended into the sky, that's what the writer wanted Christians to believe. Later in Acts when he says that the Holy Spirit descended on the disciples, that is what he wants Christians to believe.

For doubters, which includes Baha'is, none of that has to be true, and we don't want it to be true. So, we make up "reasonable" and "logical" reasons why it can't be true. The virgin birth? Walking on water? Raising the dead? The resurrection and ascension? None of it is physically possible, so for those of us that doubt that the Bible and NT are literally true, don't have to go any further. For us, it's a work of fiction.

But Baha'is doubt that those things literally or physically happened, but they still need the Bible, the NT, and Moses and Jesus to be real and true. What do they do? They have to come up with a "plausible" interpretation and explanation. For some people, like Baha'is, believing the stories were symbolic is much more plausible than believing they literally happened. And that's all they need. For them, that explains it, and they can move on "knowing" that the Bible is "true"... just not "literally" true. The real meaning of those stories is what is meant in the symbolism. Clouds are veils that hide our eyes from the true meaning. Satan is our lower nature. And hell isn't real, that's just being "far" from God. And Jesus isn't going to come back, it is the "spirit" of Christ that is coming back in a new prophet, Baha'u'llah.

It makes good enough sense to those that want to be a Baha'i. The next step is joining the Baha'i Faith. Christianity and Jesus are no longer a stumbling block. They "know" the true meaning of the Bible and the NT. They don't have to believe any of the stories literally. Adam and Eve, Creation, the Flood, the resurrection, or the ascension. Ironically, they believe in the virgin birth, which to me is just as physically impossible as any of those other things. But, for some reason, they do.

With Christianity, and all the other religions, explained away and made irrelevant, the new Baha'i can move on and start building the "new" world order of the Baha'i Faith. Someday, the hope is a peaceful, united world all under the leadership of the Baha'i Faith. To them, that's God's kingdom come. Then in about a thousand years a new messenger will come to bring new teachings from God. And, one day, there will be beings from other planets that join in and unite with us and create interplanetary unity. While I was around Baha'i fifty years ago, it all sounded good... until I stopped believing it.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No, we do not believe that they literally happened the way it was described in the Bible, but Jesus did not describe it so it's no big deal to me.

And that is part of your problem right there.
But the truth is that when Jesus does describe it, it is no big deal to you to deny it also.
eg Mark 8:30 And Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about Him. 31 Then He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and after three days rise again.

There is only one Jesus. People can choose to believe in the Jesus as the Bible described Him or the way Baha'ullah described him.

One of those is a false Christ and yes, the Bible described Him differently than Baha'u'llah does.
Baha'u'llah is not the same Jesus and did not come as described and could not raise the dead and judge them and bring world peace etc etc and so Baha'u'llah had to say that the Bible does not mean what is written in it, but that he would tell them what it means because he is the return of the Christ spirit and so he should know what the Bible actually means.

Jesus is free to go to any of the worlds of God that Baha'u'llah mentioned but earth is not one of those worlds.
Spiritual bodies to not come back to a physical world once they are in heaven.

And yet the Bible tells us differently and that Jesus would rule on the throne of David forever and be in the New Jerusalem which comes down from heaven to earth. (Rev 21)
Luke 1:31 Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”
Is there even one thing that Baha'u'llah said that agrees with the Bible?

Where did you get the idea that angels can go to heaven or earth?
There are mortal angels on earth and immortal angels in heaven but they don't go back and forth. Once a mortal angel ascends to heaven it remains in heaven in a spiritual body as an immortal angel.

“Let not your hearts be perturbed, O people, when the glory of My Presence is withdrawn, and the ocean of My utterance is stilled. In My presence amongst you there is a wisdom, and in My absence there is yet another, inscrutable to all but God, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing. Verily, We behold you from Our realm of glory, and shall aid whosoever will arise for the triumph of Our Cause with the hosts of the Concourse on high and a company of Our favored angels.”​

Only in TV programs like Highway to Heaven or Touched by an Angel do angels come back to earth after they died and went to heaven.
The angels in heaven can guide us and help us, but they do that from the spiritual realm.

And more disagreement with the Bible. Is it any wonder that I say that the fruit of Baha'u'llah, the false prophet, is to deny what the Bible says?
Gabriel was sent from God to Mary about her conception. (Luke 1:26)
Gabriel also spoke to Daniel (Dan 9:21)
Gabriel also spoke to Zechariah in the Temple about John the Baptist. (Luke 1:18-19)
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Son of man is not a title that belongs exclusively to Jesus as is the title Son of God.
37 Bible verses about Son Of Man

Son of man

"Son of man", "son of Adam", or "like a man", are phrases used in the Hebrew Bible, various apocalyptic works of the intertestamental period, and in the Greek New Testament. In the indefinite form ("son of Adam", "son of man", "like a man") used in the Hebrew Bible it is a form of address, or it contrasts human beings against God and the angels, or contrasts foreign nations (like Persia and Babylon), which are often represented as animals in apocalyptic writings (bear, goat, or ram), with Israel which is represented as human (a "son of man"), or it signifies an eschatological human figure.

In its indefinite form it is used in the Greek Old Testament, Biblical apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha. The Greek New Testament uses the earlier indefinite form while introducing a novel definite form, "the son of man."

Son of man - Wikipedia

Jesus describes Himself as "The Son of Man", the eschatological human figure and there are good reasons why even the use of "The Son of Man" when describing the one who would return, is the same Jesus,,,,,,,,,,,, the one to whom all judgement is given by His Father. (John 5)
There is absolutely no reason to believe any differently except that Baha'u'llah claimed himself to be "The Son of Man".
The Son of Man who comes to judge the world has to be Jesus according to the gospels because Jesus is the one to whom all judgement has been given.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_man
Yesterday's good news gospel message is still good but it is not news anymore since everyone in the world has heard it.
If people wanted to be saved by the cross sacrifice they have had plenty of opportunities.

The gospel massage has accomplished what it is going to accomplish so now it is time to move on. I see no point in preaching old news when we have a new message that is pertinent for today's world.

Satan will be destroyed when the gospel has been preached to everyone and Jesus comes back. He has an interest in hindering that process and has done that. Certainly the gospel had not been preached to everyone in 1844 even if some journalist somewhere says differently.

It does not matter what the men who wrote the Bible intended for it to mean since that is history. Nobody knew that it would not be the same Jesus who would return back then, and that is why we have verses like Acts1:9-11.

Acts 1: 9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Yes it is an angel who was speaking to the disciples and telling them that the same Jesus would come back the same way they saw Him go to heaven.

But who cares, Baha'u'llah says it is not the truth and so you agree.
The truth is that you have been turned away from the real Jesus by the teachings of Baha'u'llah.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The real meaning of those stories is what is meant in the symbolism. Clouds are veils that hide our eyes from the true meaning. Satan is our lower nature. And hell isn't real, that's just being "far" from God. And Jesus isn't going to come back, it is the "spirit" of Christ that is coming back in a new prophet, Baha'u'llah.

It makes good enough sense to those that want to be a Baha'i. The next step is joining the Baha'i Faith. Christianity and Jesus are no longer a stumbling block. They "know" the true meaning of the Bible and the NT. They don't have to believe any of the stories literally. Adam and Eve, Creation, the Flood, the resurrection, or the ascension. Ironically, they believe in the virgin birth, which to me is just as physically impossible as any of those other things. But, for some reason, they do.

With Christianity, and all the other religions, explained away and made irrelevant, the new Baha'i can move on and start building the "new" world order of the Baha'i Faith. Someday, the hope is a peaceful, united world all under the leadership of the Baha'i Faith. To them, that's God's kingdom come. Then in about a thousand years a new messenger will come to bring new teachings from God. And, one day, there will be beings from other planets that join in and unite with us and create interplanetary unity. While I was around Baha'i fifty years ago, it all sounded good... until I stopped believing it.

God of course, cannot give us any greater gift than Himself dwelling with us and guiding us into all truth.
You have certainly had a while to think about Baha'i.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
@Brian2 and I have been discussing the following verses and what they mean for over 10 years. The discussion began on another forum and it has continued here. This thread was inspired by the following post on another thread.

In post #690, @Brian2 said:
We start off with the idea that Jesus rose bodily from the dead, as the gospels stories tell us. Then we have the disciples and Jesus (in His resurrection body presumably) ascending in front of His disciples and being hidden by cloud.
It's not complicated really. Just read it slowly and think about it as you do, I'm sure you will be able to see it. Give it a go.

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”


I could not figure out how to insert a Poll, so please select one or more from the following options.

a. I believe that Jesus ascended into the physical clouds in the sky in His resurrection body in front of His disciples. I also believe that Jesus will return to earth, descending from heaven on the clouds.

b. I do not believe that Jesus ascended into the physical clouds in the sky in His resurrection body in front of His disciples. I also do not believe that Jesus will return to earth, descending from heaven on the clouds.

c. I believe that those verses have another meaning, different from what @Brian2 believes. They are about the return of Christ, but not about the return of the same man who was called Jesus.

d. I believe that those verses are only part of a made-up fictional story, not about anything that ever happened or ever will ever happen.
The Christian Bible is one of the most studied book in the last one thousand years. In regards the authorship of Acts of the Apostles, like many New Testament books, there is debate and uncertainty. There seems to be a general consensus among scholars its the same author as the Gospel of Luke. There is consensus among scholars that Jesus was an itinerant Jewish Preacher who was baptized and crucified.

There is no such consensus when it comes to the resurrection of Christ. While I personally believe in the possibility of miracles, Jesus ascending through the stratosphere into outer space where heaven resides, simply doesn't work for me. It fits into a cosmological world view that was accepted two thousand years ago but is now superceded.

So Acts 1:9-11 opens up possibilities other than a literal account of history. That's both exciting and liberating.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The Christian Bible is one of the most studied book in the last one thousand years. In regards the authorship of Acts of the Apostles, like many New Testament books, there is debate and uncertainty. There seems to be a general consensus among scholars its the same author as the Gospel of Luke. There is consensus among scholars that Jesus was an itinerant Jewish Preacher who was baptized and crucified.

There is no such consensus when it comes to the resurrection of Christ. While I personally believe in the possibility of miracles, Jesus ascending through the stratosphere into outer space where heaven resides, simply doesn't work for me. It fits into a cosmological world view that was accepted two thousand years ago but is now superceded.

So Acts 1:9-11 opens up possibilities other that a literal account of history. That's both exciting and liberating.

Acts 1:9-11 does not say anything about outer space etc. The disciples did not actually see Jesus go into heaven. The word for heaven is the same as that for sky so in reality Acts 1:9-11 is saying "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into the sky, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into the sky".
It is translated "into heaven" because that is where it is assumed Jesus went after He entered the cloud and it probably is, but nobody saw Him go into heaven, all they saw was Jesus going into the sky, and being hidden from view.
 

Yokefellow

Active Member
There are angels on earth but they are physical human beings, and they don't appear and disappear.

Are we discussing what the Bible teaches or something else? There are plenty of examples of Angels appearing and disappearing...

Exodus 3:2
"And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed."


What exactly are we debating? Your imagination?

I believe that what is described about the New Jerusalem in the Book of Revelation is symbolic, not a literal description of heaven.

Why not both?

The Tree of Life is not a physical tree.

Are you sure? Do Women not have reproductive organs? Ovary? You do realize that the Tree of Life is not only Feminine, but has a Menstrual Cycle as well?

Revelation 22:2
"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."


Monthly Fruit = Menstrual Cycle

The 'Leaves' represent a 'Covering' (Physical Body) so we are not 'naked'. The 'City' is describing a Uterus. You know, as in Born Again? As in literal? She is the Mother of us all...

Galatians 4:26
"But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."


How much more obvious could it be?

1 Sarah.png

Baha’is believe that the tree of life is the Word of God which bestows eternal life.

Correct. The Word of God is Sperm and Ovum... aka... Seed...

Luke 8:11
"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God."


The Fruit on the Tree of Life are Zygotes fertilized by the Lamb (Abraham's Seed) and the River of Semen flowing from the Phallic Masculine Throne.

it is not physical life, but spiritual life. God never created the physical body to live forever.

You are 'spiritualizing away' the profound meanings of the Bible.

Once the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world where it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in the heavenly realm.

Taking on a new form consists of entering the Yoni Gates of the New Jerusalem Mother and partaking of the Zygote to be reconceived. It is the opposite of how you got here. You partook of your Mom's 'Forbidden Fruit' and here you are. Now, you must be Born Again of Incorruptible Seed...

1 Peter 1:23
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."


Again, the Seed is the Word of God.

It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)

It? Really?

Proverbs 3:18
"She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her."


Is there something wrong with the word 'She'? Is that offensive now? :rolleyes:

We are meant to exist with a body and a soul.

And Spirit. You are missing the most important part.

I believe there is a physical dimension and a spiritual dimension

Agreed.

but I don't know about any parallel universes.

A New Heaven and New Earth is literally the definition of a Parallel Universe...

Isaiah 65:17
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."


Isaiah 66:22
"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain."

2 Peter 3:13
"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."


Revelation 21:1
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."


Obviously, the verses are not talking about where we are now.

John went through a Portal...

Revelation 4:1
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."


John traveled to a Parallel Universe and back. Those are the facts. Now you know, but will you remember? Will you acknowledge? I have my doubts. I am not trying to be mean, but you come off as someone who would rather ignore that which is presented to you.

And that is an example of Christians not agreeing with each other. I know Christians who believe that Earth will be dissolved but I know no Christians who believe that Heaven will be dissolved.

Ok and? What are you saying? Because you or someone else does not know, that means no one else knows? Are you the gatekeeper of knowledge?

The Bible is clear...

2 Peter 3:12
"Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"


Not just one Heaven, but ALL Heavens will be dissolved. This is like Bible 101. Who are these so called 'Christians' you are getting your Info from? They sound incredibly misinformed.

Ben Witherington suggests that this parable is part of a pair,[4] and shares its meaning with the preceding parable, that of the mustard seed, namely the powerful growth of the Kingdom of God from small beginnings.[2]

Oh, so the Kingdom of God is like Seed is it? Seed is the Word? You mean to tell me that the Kingdom of God is a Seed Bank in the form of Genetic Sequences?

But wait...

God said that we are made of corrupted Seed. You mean to tell me that the Kingdom of God Genome has corrupted sequences leading to cancer, sickness and death?

Although leaven symbolises evil influences elsewhere in the New Testament

Well, what do you know. They got that part correct. Beware the Leaven (corrupted words) of the Pharisees...

Matthew 16:12
"Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."


(see Luke 12:1),[2] it is not generally interpreted that way in this parable.

Christians can be ignorant. What else is new?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Acts 1:9-11 does not say anything about outer space etc. The disciples did not actually see Jesus go into heaven. The word for heaven is the same as that for sky so in reality Acts 1:9-11 is saying "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into the sky, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into the sky".
It is translated "into heaven" because that is where it is assumed Jesus went after He entered the cloud and it probably is, but nobody saw Him go into heaven, all they saw was Jesus going into the sky, and being hidden from view.
Nobody saw Jesus go into heaven because nobody can see heaven from earth, but all the translations say Jesus was taken up into heaven.

Acts 1:11 King James Version
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Acts 1:11
21st Century King James Version
who also said, “Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into Heaven.”

Acts 1:11
English Standard Version
and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Acts 1:11
New International Version
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Acts 1:11
New King James Version
who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Acts 1:9-11 does not say anything about outer space etc. The disciples did not actually see Jesus go into heaven. The word for heaven is the same as that for sky so in reality Acts 1:9-11 is saying "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into the sky, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into the sky".
It is translated "into heaven" because that is where it is assumed Jesus went after He entered the cloud and it probably is, but nobody saw Him go into heaven, all they saw was Jesus going into the sky, and being hidden from view.
There appears to be a juxtaposition between the words heaven and sky. We could look at the Greek words or multiple different English translations. I don't see it really matters. Jesus ascends into the sky and a cloud where he disappears or perhaps its heaven as is implied.

We can see the sky and clouds. We can not see heaven. There is obvious symbolism of the words clouds, sky and heaven or it could be a literal description of what actually happened.

There are similar verses in the next chapter that appear to be figurative rather than literal.

Acts of the Apostles 1:1-4

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Do you see these verses literally?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Are you sure? Do Women not have reproductive organs? Ovary? You do realize that the Tree of Life is not only Feminine, but has a Menstrual Cycle as well?

Revelation 22:2
"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."


Monthly Fruit = Menstrual Cycle

The 'Leaves' represent a 'Covering' (Physical Body) so we are not 'naked'. The 'City' is describing a Uterus. You know, as in Born Again? As in literal? She is the Mother of us all...

Galatians 4:26
"But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."


How much more obvious could it be?
Are you suggesting the tree of life in Genesis had reproductive organs complete with ovaries and a monthly cycle?

FWIW such a tree is used symbolically in many different cultures.

 
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