What is the Message of the Book of Job?

[Brickjectivity]

I believe I don't agree. I believe what it is saying is that in Job's case there was another explanation and that was that evil pursued Job no matter how well he acted and perhaps even because he acted well. This is true in the world. I have had people try to drag me down to their level of degradation.

I believe this is false reasoning. A general statement does not necessarily lead to a particular instance. I believe the nothing that Job is talking about is distinctive and not general ie it represents what God is doing that a prophet can hear God say that He is doing it. So if there is no prophet around that does not mean God isn't acting only that He isn't communicating with His people.

Keep in mind that I am not sure what Jayhawker Soule is referring to, so I don't know what he thinks is the challenge to core theology. I'm just making a small venture into the subject.

I believe I don't agree. I believe what it is saying is that in Job's case there was another explanation and that was that evil pursued Job no matter how well he acted and perhaps even because he acted well. This is true in the world. I have had people try to drag me down to their level of degradation.

Behind this is the whole latent question of why Israel suffers. The covenant on the two hills (Deut 11:29) suggests that if Israel does well that it will not suffer, but if Israel does poorly then it will. What is Job's suffering for? He's doing everything that he is supposed to do. He doesn't need to suffer just so he can be told that knowledge is beyond his kenning, and then by extension for what is Israel suffering? It makes no sense for so many to die in the wild and only a few to go into Canaan. It makes no sense for 2 temples to be destroyed. Job seems to take the position that its simply beyond explanation. "You weren't there at the founding, and so just accept what happens." Hosea seems to say "No. You have a covenant, and if you keep the covenant then you should be fine. Therefore when something goes wrong its because you screwed up."

 

[CG Didymus]

If God had not restored Job's prosperity and life in the end, would the meaning of the story to you be significantly changed?

Who wrote the story? Who was there in heaven to see Satan talk to God? Who was there through Job's life writing all this down? I really don't think it happened. It's just a nice spiritual story meant to teach people not to question God's authority. And, if you put your trust in him, no matter what happens, all will be well in the end.

 

[Whiterain]

To literally stand up to God or your demons and take control.

 

[12jtartar]

CG Didymus,
The book of Job was written by Moses.
The Book was written as a lesson for all mankind, not just a story about Job.
Job remained true and faithful even though he was subjected to all kinds of terrible things that could have stumbled him, Job 1:14-22, 42:7,8. Even his own wife tried to get him to curse God and die, so he could get out of his torment, Job 2:9.
The book of Job was written so that everyone can understand that they can remain faithful under any circumstance.
God will not allow a person to be tried with more than he can bear, 1Corinthians 10:13. A very good lesson for all mankind!!!

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The book of Job was written by Moses.

Source?

And you ARE aware that even God admits to Satan that He was doing this for no good reason, right? Had God been mature and secure in His morality, He would've told Satan off instead of going along with a hazing just to see how Job would react. God and Satan are like the cast of Jack.***, pranking people with dangerous stunts just to see what would happen.

 

[Muffled]

Keep in mind that I am not sure what Jayhawker Soule is referring to, so I don't know what he thinks is the challenge to core theology. I'm just making a small venture into the subject.

Behind this is the whole latent question of why Israel suffers. The covenant on the two hills (Deut 11:29) suggests that if Israel does well that it will not suffer, but if Israel does poorly then it will. What is Job's suffering for? He's doing everything that he is supposed to do. He doesn't need to suffer just so he can be told that knowledge is beyond his kenning, and then by extension for what is Israel suffering? It makes no sense for so many to die in the wild and only a few to go into Canaan. It makes no sense for 2 temples to be destroyed. Job seems to take the position that its simply beyond explanation. "You weren't there at the founding, and so just accept what happens." Hosea seems to say "No. You have a covenant, and if you keep the covenant then you should be fine. Therefore when something goes wrong its because you screwed up."

I believe the wicked are punished but what you can't do is reason backwards that a person suffering must have sinned. That is like the time they asked Jesus about the man born blind if the man sinned or his parents sinned but Jesus said no it was so the glory of God could be revealed in his healing.

 

[Muffled]

Source?

And you ARE aware that even God admits to Satan that He was doing this for no good reason, right? Had God been mature and secure in His morality, He would've told Satan off instead of going along with a hazing just to see how Job would react. God and Satan are like the cast of Jack.***, pranking people with dangerous stunts just to see what would happen.

I believe God already knows what will happen.

I believe the reason given was that God was responding to Satan.

I believe this is an unproven assumption.

God has nothing to prove to Himself but no doubt Satan needed to be educated and Job and his friends as well.

 

[Ben Avraham]

What's the message from the book of Job?

The same as the one from Isaiah 8:8. There, we see that Emmanuel is defined by name as being Judah; the one
who speaks between God and the rest of Mankind. In the book of Job you will be able to see this role in the very
last chapter. Job represents Israel and his friends from the East, the Gentiles. In Job 42:7-11 we see that God
endorsed what Job said about God and, his friends were rejected with the words that they did not say the Truth
about HaShem. A sacrifice was required but not offered by his friends because the Lord would not accept them.
So, instructions followed that the sacrifice to be accepted for them it had to be made by Job. This did according to
the instructions and his friends were accepted by God. So, the message from the book of Job is that of Emmanuel
between God and man. Hence, Jesus' words in John 4:22 that salvation comes from the Jews.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

How do you interpret Job?

There has been a lot of discussion about the roles of God and Satan battling at man's expense. Is the book of Job another Homeric epic where a pantheon of deity and near deity toy with mere mortals? Is God trying to prove that the mankind he has created is worthy of its Creator? Is Satan pointing out the fundamental failure of God's creation? Who's on trial God or Job?

It is God who brings to Satan's attention Job and his uprightness. Satan points out man’s shortcomings. Take away man's riches, take away his health, and the fundamental weakness of mankind will be revealed. Yet Job remains upright. God beams.

Enter Job's comforters and their sensible view of the universe. God doesn't make mistakes. He rewards the righteous and punishes the wicked. The fault must then lie with Job. But Job knows his own righteousness before God. Job faces a dilemma. He knows the fault does not lie with him yet cannot accept that the fault must therefore lie with God. Job would have to concede that the Almighty can botch one man's life and that the whole universe could be a botch and therefore God is not the Almighty God. Job could never concede that. He wants an answer. Job's religion would demand that his case be ordered before God and fault be established and sense returned to his world.

God is put on the spot precisely because the fault lies with Himself. Stripped of his wealth, health and family, a despised and wretched skeleton of his former self that God has turned him into, Job responds to injustice with blameless integrity. Satan cannot be faulted. He is not the Christian devil seeking whom he may devour or Dante's colossal monster. He must ask permission for everything he does. Satan sneered God into allowing this terrible ordeal.

God answers Job's pleas and simply states, "Who are you to question me? My reason is not your reason.“ Job, satisfied with that answer, falls on his face and worships God. Job, after all, has won his main point that the fault did not lie with him. God rebukes Job's false comforters and restores to Job wealth, health and another family. End of story.

But is it? What about Job's ten lost children? Where was God's justice to them? Could another hundred and forty years heal the hurt to Job and his wife? Job was satisfied with God's answer but are we? Wasn't it shown that Job behaved better than God? Wasn't it shown that a righteous man, suffering through the most horrible injustice, can demand of his Creator an accounting of Himself? Is not Job the Bible's only hero? He stood before his Almighty God, blameless, and forced Him to acknowledge responsibility.

This is the example of Job's conduct that we need to learn. Job is the one man in the Bible who rises to the stature of God while sitting on an ash heap. Couldn't we do the same?

 

[Ben Avraham]

To literally stand up to God or your demons and take control.

The whole book of Job is an allegory; a great midrash to explain the role of Israel qua Emmanuel between God and the rest of Mankind. (Isaiah 8:8) The personage "Job" never existed in reality if we read what Maimonides wrote in his book "Guide for the Perplexed." The point of the author was to explain that Job represented Israel while his three friends from the East represented the Gentiles. At the last chapter, the Lord rejected Job's friends and demanded of them that a sacrifice be offered but through Job so that they be forgiven. So, Job as a Jew had to intercede for his friends as Gentiles. (Job 42:7-14)

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

What's the message from the book of Job?

The same as the one from Isaiah 8:8. There, we see that Emmanuel is defined by name as being Judah; the one
who speaks between God and the rest of Mankind. In the book of Job you will be able to see this role in the very
last chapter. Job represents Israel and his friends from the East, the Gentiles. In Job 42:7-11 we see that God
endorsed what Job said about God and, his friends were rejected with the words that they did not say the Truth
about HaShem. A sacrifice was required but not offered by his friends because the Lord would not accept them.
So, instructions followed that the sacrifice to be accepted for them it had to be made by Job. This did according to
the instructions and his friends were accepted by God. So, the message from the book of Job is that of Emmanuel
between God and man. Hence, Jesus' words in John 4:22 that salvation comes from the Jews.

Interesting outlook. I took it to be Job is Everyguy and the "friends" are self-righteous people (preachers, etc) who blame the victim while acting like experts in things they know nothing about.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Job is wisdom literature serving as a polemic against the reward and punishment paradigm so prevalent on the Tanakh.

 

[Tumah]

Behind this is the whole latent question of why Israel suffers. The covenant on the two hills (Deut 11:29) suggests that if Israel does well that it will not suffer, but if Israel does poorly then it will. What is Job's suffering for? He's doing everything that he is supposed to do. He doesn't need to suffer just so he can be told that knowledge is beyond his kenning, and then by extension for what is Israel suffering? It makes no sense for so many to die in the wild and only a few to go into Canaan. It makes no sense for 2 temples to be destroyed. Job seems to take the position that its simply beyond explanation. "You weren't there at the founding, and so just accept what happens." Hosea seems to say "No. You have a covenant, and if you keep the covenant then you should be fine. Therefore when something goes wrong its because you screwed up."

What if the Book of Job took place before the Book of Exodus?

 

[Brickjectivity]

I believe the wicked are punished but what you can't do is reason backwards that a person suffering must have sinned. That is like the time they asked Jesus about the man born blind if the man sinned or his parents sinned but Jesus said no it was so the glory of God could be revealed in his healing.

According to the covenant no one in Israel can be blind if everyone is in compliance and people can only be suffering if someone is not in compliance. Perhaps what Jesus is suggesting is that the man's blindness isn't due to a personal sin by himself or by his parents either but is a sign that the nation has a problem. If the covenant has value then the man can't be blind unless someone has sinned. It could also be that Jesus is voiding the blind man's sin by denying its existence, much like he insists that a dead girl is merely asleep instead of saying that he's raising her from the dead. Which thing is stranger -- to deny that a dead person is dead or that a sinner has no sin? So there are many things to consider about the passage with the blind man.

 

[Brickjectivity]

What if the Book of Job took place before the Book of Exodus?

Job could be Moses father in law's grandfather, a Midianite. He could be Abram's third cousin. I don't have anything in my Bible that says otherwise.

 

[Tumah]

Job could be Moses father in law's grandfather, a Midianite. He could be Abram's third cousin. I don't have anything in my Bible that says otherwise.

I'm saying that maybe the covenant on the mountains had nothing to do with his treatment.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'm saying that maybe the covenant on the mountains had nothing to do with his treatment.

Maybe not? I don't know why it must be part of the same timeline with Exodus. I can allow that the story happens in a completely different plane of existence where sons of God come together to debate with Satan and make bets -- perhaps what seems to us like a thought experiment. Why include it in the canon if its not relevant to Exodus though?

 

[Tumah]

Maybe not? I don't know why it must be part of the same timeline with Exodus. I can allow that the story happens in a completely different plane of existence where sons of God come together to debate with Satan and make bets -- perhaps what seems to us like a thought experiment. Why include it in the canon if its not relevant to Exodus though?

Earlier you questioned the difference in treatment between Job (who seems to have been punished for no wrong) and Israel (who would be punished for wrongs). I was pointing out that perhaps Job's treatment, not being part of the covenant is unrelated to those who were in it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Earlier you questioned the difference in treatment between Job (who seems to have been punished for no wrong) and Israel (who would be punished for wrongs). I was pointing out that perhaps Job's treatment, not being part of the covenant is unrelated to those who were in it.

Now I see. So you are suggesting there may be a difference between those in the covenant and those not in it. Ok, so referring to your first question/point about what if Job is written before Exodus, then I think you are implying that it illustrates life outside the covenant.

 

[Tumah]

Now I see. So you are suggesting there may be a difference between those in the covenant and those not in it. Ok, so referring to your first question/point about what if Job is written before Exodus, then I think you are implying that it illustrates life outside the covenant.

That's not exactly what I meant. What I meant was just that Job's treatment may have been unique and since he was not under the covenant, there is no question of why he was treated the way he is.

Incidentally, Judaism teaches that the way Job was treated does apply to Jews as well in a concept call "sufferings of love" that are given to the most righteous. So I'm only speaking here at face value of the text.