What is the most important message of Jesus?

[Thanda]

I disagree. I think it's the other way around. If you live a good humble charitable life, treating others with respect and dignity, you are golden. The rest won't matter.

Indeed. But what is charity? Saying that one needs to do good is overly simplistic. Because the question would remain, what is good. Why is it so hard to be a leader? Because it is difficult to make the right decisions.

The complexity of life is such that doing right, being good and showing love are not always that straight forward. Therefore anyone who desires to live a good life must first attach himself to the source of all good, love and righteousness, even God. Hence Jesus said in John 15:

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.​

 

[TheInfiniteLight]

According to my belief Jesus's number one message was to worship God alone.

Mercy through forgiveness and repentance was the 'number one' message of Jesus.

 

[Redemptionsong]

One would assume the awaited Messiah has a special place - and still isn't God.

What is the problem with angels worshiping/bowing to the prophesized human Messiah?

God told King David - this day have I begotten thee, and called him a Son of God.

Ingledsva, are you trying to say that King David and Jesus Christ have the same authority? Clearly they don't. The angels do not worship King David. Why not? Because he is a human being. Jesus Christ is described as a MEDIATOR whilst on Earth. This means that He is fully GOD and fully HUMAN. You cannot be a true mediator without representing both sides.

Galatians 3:20, 'Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.'

Jesus goes to the trouble of clarifying the distinction in status between himself and King David when he says to the Pharisees, 'What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?' (Matthew 23:42-45)

 

[Redemptionsong]

Here's another illustration of how scriptures together support the truth of Christ's eternal nature.

1 Thessalonians 3:12,13 says, 'And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.'

Is the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ the same as the coming of God?

According to the prophet Zechariah, most definitely YES. Zechariah 14:5 (part) 'and the LORD my God shall come and all the saints with thee.'
and in verse 9 he says, 'And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.'

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Hmm, I'd have to say it's a close race between "hate gays" and "kill abortion doctors." To be fair, I think they're probably equal. I'm not sure what else, if anything, Jesus mentioned.

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva, are you trying to say that King David and Jesus Christ have the same authority? Clearly they don't. The angels do not worship King David. Why not? Because he is a human being. Jesus Christ is described as a MEDIATOR whilst on Earth. This means that He is fully GOD and fully HUMAN. You cannot be a true mediator without representing both sides.

Galatians 3:20, 'Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.'

Jesus goes to the trouble of clarifying the distinction in status between himself and King David when he says to the Pharisees, 'What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?' (Matthew 23:42-45)

1. You brought up the wording as giving Jesus special authority! I showed that other people in the Bible are called the same.

2. How would Jesus being a "mediator" make him a God? It does NOT!

3. You continue to take texts out of context and say they mean something else! Galatians -

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels/Pastors/Messengers in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3 19 Why then the (Levitical) Law? It was placed beside (The Torah) for the sake of transgressions, until the Seed should come, to whom it had been promised, being given by promise in a mediator's hand.

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator does not represent one alone, but Deity is one

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So, as we can see - these verses again - are not in any way saying Jesus is God!

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The Matt 23 verse was not said by Jesus. It was written many years after Jesus' death, - by someone whom as usual misunderstood a Tanakh text.

Psalm 1101 is a Psalm OF David. It is what YHVH said to David.

Psalm 110:1 [A Psalm of David.] A declaration of YHVH to my Adonai: Sit at My right hand, until I place Your enemies as Your footstool.

This psalm has absolutely NOTHING to do with Jesus.

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[Ingledsva]

Here's another illustration of how scriptures together support the truth of Christ's eternal nature.

1 Thessalonians 3:12,13 says, 'And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.'

Is the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ the same as the coming of God?

According to the prophet Zechariah, most definitely YES. Zechariah 14:5 (part) 'and the LORD my God shall come and all the saints with thee.'
and in verse 9 he says, 'And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.'

Again the taking of Tanakh texts out of context. It is using blustery language for an event that took place then.

Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

We are told in the Bible that half the people were taken into captivity.

According to Adam Clarke's Commentary on The Bible -

"Zechariah 14:18


If the family of Egypt - This may allude to those Jews who, flying from the persecution of Antiochus Epiphanes, settled in Egypt, and built a temple at Heliopolis, under the direction of Onias, son of the high priest. Josephus Antiq. lib. xiii., c. 6, and War, lib. vii., c. 36. ..."

AND - Zec 14:5 does not say - 'and the LORD my God shall come and all the saints with thee.'

It says -

And you shall flee to the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah. And YHVH my Elohiym shall come, and all the qâdôsh/Sacred/Holy Ones with You.

AGAIN - Nothing to do with a future Jesus.

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[seeking4truth]

Recognise and Worship God, and serve your fellow beings with compassion and love - because of your love for their Creator, even if it might mean tough love..

 

[Redemptionsong]

1. You brought up the wording as giving Jesus special authority! I showed that other people in the Bible are called the same.

2. How would Jesus being a "mediator" make him a God? It does NOT!

Jesus Christ DOES HAVE SPECIAL AUTHORITY!! It doesn't matter that David is called a king. He is not the SPIRITUAL MESSIAH, who comes from God! David was an earthly king, a great man but also a sinner. Peter says, 'Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.'

The Matt 23 verse was not said by Jesus. It was written many years after Jesus' death, - by someone whom as usual misunderstood a Tanakh text.

What absolute rubbish!!
I cannot believe that you are prepared to dismiss the the words of Jesus in this way. It is not just quoted in Matthew's Gospel, it is quoted by Mark and Luke too. It is again quoted by Peter in Acts (chapter2) where he ends by saying, 'Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath named the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.'

This is a prophetic word that you have the cheek to dismiss out of hand.
The Gospel writers were led by the Holy Spirit and spoke the truth. Why should we believe YOUR interpretation of the Tanakh?! These men were Jews, well versed in the scriptures. And Jesus provides practical evidence, in signs and wonders, that his word is the WORD of GOD!

Please don't go quoting passages from the New Testament to suggest that Jesus Christ will judge the souls of the dead, when in fact you don't believe a single word he spoke!!

As for being a mediator, I believe this was explained clearly. You cannot be a mediator of one. You are a mediator of two. The Word was made flesh in order to mediate - to be both human and divine. God's spirit was in Jesus reconciling the world to Himself. That same spirit is now in US, the Body of Christ.

If God were not in Jesus Christ, we would be able to bypass him and be saved. But we cannot bypass Christ. Peter said, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'

How else can a man be saved? Jesus Christ is God's salvation.

 

[Ingledsva]

Jesus Christ DOES HAVE SPECIAL AUTHORITY!! It doesn't matter that David is called a king. He is not the SPIRITUAL MESSIAH, who comes from God! David was an earthly king, a great man but also a sinner. Peter says, 'Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.'

ING - According to the Bible - Jesus' only authority is as the awaited HUMAN Jewish Messiah. Nowhere does it say he is a God or part of a trinity, not does Jesus say he is a God, or part of any trinity!

What absolute rubbish!!
I cannot believe that you are prepared to dismiss the the words of Jesus in this way. It is not just quoted in Matthew's Gospel, it is quoted by Mark and Luke too. It is again quoted by Peter in Acts (chapter2) where he ends by saying, 'Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath named the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.'

This is a prophetic word that you have the cheek to dismiss out of hand.
The Gospel writers were led by the Holy Spirit and spoke the truth. Why should we believe YOUR interpretation of the Tanakh?! These men were Jews, well versed in the scriptures. And Jesus provides practical evidence, in signs and wonders, that his word is the WORD of GOD!

Please don't go quoting passages from the New Testament to suggest that Jesus Christ will judge the souls of the dead, when in fact you don't believe a single word he spoke!!

As for being a mediator, I believe this was explained clearly. You cannot be a mediator of one. You are a mediator of two. The Word was made flesh in order to mediate - to be both human and divine. God's spirit was in Jesus reconciling the world to Himself. That same spirit is now in US, the Body of Christ.

If God were not in Jesus Christ, we would be able to bypass him and be saved. But we cannot bypass Christ. Peter said, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'

How else can a man be saved? Jesus Christ is God's salvation.

LOL! How can I dismiss the words? Because Jesus was DEAD BEFORE ANY OF THEM WERE WRITTEN!

ALSO - AGAIN! NONE of the verses you have put forward - say Jesus is a God, or part of any trinity.

The Messiah would be an only-begotten!

The Messiah was to have authority!

The Messiah according to your Christian Bible - is the first to rise from SHEOL - where ALL the dead await final judgment, and he will have a throne and make Final Judgment.

NONE of which makes him a God. It does not say he is a God anywhere in the Bible.

Just the awaited HUMAN Messiah.

PS - Matt 23 was obviously written by someone - later - whom was not there - as they mistranslated/misunderstood the Tanakh text Psalm 110:1, which is YHVH talking to King David, - and NOTHING to do with Jesus.

Every time Christians try to grab Tanakh texts and make them about Jesus, they prove their own religion more and more false.


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[Ingledsva]

Recognise and Worship God, and serve your fellow beings with compassion and love - because of your love for their Creator, even if it might mean tough love..

Whom are you replying to? And what does this have to do with the debate?

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[seeking4truth]

Whom are you replying to? And what does this have to do with the debate?

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The question at the start of the thread.

 

[Redemptionsong]

PS - Matt 23 was obviously written by someone - later - whom was not there - as they mistranslated/misunderstood the Tanakh text Psalm 110:1, which is YHVH talking to King David, - and NOTHING to do with Jesus.

There is no mistranslation or misunderstanding here. In fact, even your suggestion that it is YHVH talking to King David is not an orthodox Jewish understanding. Most Jewish commentators believe that it is a reference to Abraham - as in Sanhedrin 108b -109a (of the Talmud). What is openly admitted is that the passage is obscure. The JSB says, 'It is quite difficult because v.3 is totally obscure, and the psalm changes speakers often.'

Jesus did not find the passage obscure. He spoke about it openly before the Pharisees. Many eye-witnesses kept Jesus' words in their hearts, and some disciples (Matthew and Peter included) passed on a prophetic Gospel record. The fact that we have four Gospel accounts, each providing a different perspective on the life and role of Jesus Christ, adds weight to the authenticity of the record. You are quite wrong to say that the writers were not there to witness Jesus speaking these words. The disciples were at his side, listening to his teaching. They may not have been led to write things down at the time, but the Holy Spirit is capable of bringing the Word back to memory. The words and events of Jesus' ministry were recorded, but only after the initial missionary work of the apostles was complete.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Ingledsva, you keep saying that Jesus is a human Messiah. That's only half the story. He is also the Son of God!

What do you think happened to Jesus Christ following his resurrection? What happened to his flesh?

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva, you keep saying that Jesus is a human Messiah. That's only half the story. He is also the Son of God!

What do you think happened to Jesus Christ following his resurrection? What happened to his flesh?

You keep avoiding the facts, - which were provided to you, - that many people were called Sons of God.

King David was a begotten Son of God.

The Jews are all Sons/children of God.

What happened to his flesh? One would assume it was left in the grave. All we have is a story written long after his death.

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[Ingledsva]

There is no mistranslation or misunderstanding here. In fact, even your suggestion that it is YHVH talking to King David is not an orthodox Jewish understanding. Most Jewish commentators believe that it is a reference to Abraham - as in Sanhedrin 108b -109a (of the Talmud). What is openly admitted is that the passage is obscure. The JSB says, 'It is quite difficult because v.3 is totally obscure, and the psalm changes speakers often.'

Jesus did not find the passage obscure. He spoke about it openly before the Pharisees. Many eye-witnesses kept Jesus' words in their hearts, and some disciples (Matthew and Peter included) passed on a prophetic Gospel record. The fact that we have four Gospel accounts, each providing a different perspective on the life and role of Jesus Christ, adds weight to the authenticity of the record. You are quite wrong to say that the writers were not there to witness Jesus speaking these words. The disciples were at his side, listening to his teaching. They may not have been led to write things down at the time, but the Holy Spirit is capable of bringing the Word back to memory. The words and events of Jesus' ministry were recorded, but only after the initial missionary work of the apostles was complete.

Psalm 110:1 is a Psalm OF David. It is what YHVH said to David.

Psalm 110:1 [A Psalm of David.] A declaration of YHVH to my Adonai: Sit at My right hand, until I place Your enemies as Your footstool.

King David is very obviously my Adonai.

However, even if you wanted to go with another scholar, - it still would NOT be about Jesus!

By the way it is actually Mat 22.

Mat 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.

Mat 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

Mat 22:44 The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand until I put thine enemies under thy feet?

As you can see - the later Christian person whom wrote Mat 22 - did not realize that there is NO LORD talking to a Lord.

Therefore it CAN NOT be King David and Jesus.

It says YHVH.

Psalm 110:1 [A Psalm of David.] A declaration of YHVH to my Adonai: Sit at My right hand, until I place Your enemies as Your footstool.

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[Redemptionsong]

King David was a begotten Son of God.

The Jews are all Sons/children of God.

Wrong again.
King David was not a begotten son of God. There is only ONE begotten son of God - Jesus Christ.
John 3:18, 'He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.'

The Jews are not all children of God. John 8: 33-59 makes this very clear. Jesus says to the Jews who questioned his authority, 'Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.'
Some Jews accept the truth of Christ and others do not.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Psalm 110:1 [A Psalm of David.] A declaration of YHVH to my Adonai: Sit at My right hand, until I place Your enemies as Your footstool.

King David is very obviously my Adonai.

Psalm 110:1
Can you not see how ludicrous your interpretation is?! How can King David sit down at the right hand of the Father in heaven? GO TO JERUSALEM AND YOU WILL FIND HIS BONES UNDER THE SEPULCHRE AT MOUNT ZION.

This is what Peter says in Acts 3:34, 'For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.'

In Psalm 110, David was talking about the Christ, whom Jesus proves himself to be. It cannot be David, and it cannot be Abraham. Their bodies remain in the grave.

 

[Ingledsva]

Psalm 110:1 [A Psalm of David.] A declaration of YHVH to my Adonai: Sit at My right hand, until I place Your enemies as Your footstool.

King David is very obviously my Adonai.

Psalm 110:1
Can you not see how ludicrous your interpretation is?! How can King David sit down at the right hand of the Father in heaven? GO TO JERUSALEM AND YOU WILL FIND HIS BONES UNDER THE SEPULCHRE AT MOUNT ZION.

This is what Peter says in Acts 3:34, 'For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.'

In Psalm 110, David was talking about the Christ, whom Jesus proves himself to be. It cannot be David, and it cannot be Abraham. Their bodies remain in the grave.

Jews did not believe in, or write about, your belief in Jesus as a God, in the future.

There is nothing "ludicrous in my interpretation" (not mine by the way, - that is the Hebrew translation.)

It is about David, supposedly written by his scribe at that time. The whole Bible has people talking with God - so why would that be ludicrous?

I suggest you go back and read about King David's war.

To be at, or in, the right hand of God - is merely a colloquialism.

Again - how can you not understand that there is only ONE lord in the sentence and it is connected to MY. = MY LORD. = the scribe's Lord = King David.

Psalm 110:1 [A Psalm of David.] A declaration of YHVH to my Adonai: Sit at My right hand, until I place Your enemies as Your footstool.

"This “Lord” (in blue) which is not entirely capitalized above is the Hebrew word “adoni,”(pronounced adonee), with a “chirik” vowel under the letter yud. It means “to my master” or “to my lord” with a lower case “L” like the “lord of the manor.” Psalm 110 - A Jewish Perspective - Jews For Judaism

"The correct and only translation of ladonee is “to my master” or “to my lord.” The Hebrew word adonee never refers to God anywhere in the Bible. It is used only to address a person, never God. That is to say, God, the Creator of the universe, is never called adonee in the Bible. There are many words reserved for God in the Bible; adonee, however, is not one of them."

‘The Lord Said to My Lord…’ To Whom Was the Lord Speaking in Psalm 110:1? | Outreach Judaism


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[Ingledsva]

Wrong again.
King David was not a begotten son of God. There is only ONE begotten son of God - Jesus Christ.
John 3:18, 'He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.'

The Jews are not all children of God. John 8: 33-59 makes this very clear. Jesus says to the Jews who questioned his authority, 'Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.'
Some Jews accept the truth of Christ and others do not.

Yes King David was a begotten son of God.

Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

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Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Your LATER written Christian texts have no impact on what Tanakh actually says.

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