what is the origin of sin/evil?

[Hermit Philosopher]

what is the origin of sin/evil? who is to blame for the existence of sin?if god is omnibenevolent, and his creation is perfect in his image, and there is no sin in heaven, then how could lucifer(god's creation) sin against god in heaven? it is said that lucifer felt pride and/or jealousy, both of which are considered sins. so how could sin be part of lucifer's nature if god created him in the absence of sin?

Dear tomasortega,
I'll leave the Lucifer-aspect for others to comment on, for I know nothing about it. Pride and jealousy however, are two [of many] effects caused by the interaction between individual Egos, taking place in the physical world.

The original will of our Divine Absolute, is solely to comprehend what It by Its very nature, knows to be. But, manifested as/divided into multiple perspectives, this will is commonly replaced by that of the individual Ego.

Every man senses this. During life, we all develop ambitions and goals, connected to our individual experiences [of physical existence]. It is in trying to fulfil these that we stray from the will of the Absolute and, inevitably sin. This is because worldly needs and desires - in contrary to the universal will of the Absolute - are always particular; they always go against someone else’s.

In answer to your question, then; I would say, sin originates from the manifestation of Ego. And, because we are born into an already existing reality, ever since, we are always born both from and into sin.

However; though the sins of our fathers determine the situations we are born into, I do think it important to emphasize that everyone of us is capable of choosing not to become that which we are most inclined to. Through faith and courage, man can and ought to free himself from his [environmental, biological, etc] starting-point.

Regards,
Hermit

 

[Beaudreaux]

I wish you would lay out your problems with the argument instead of just saying there is no substantiation to the claim.

Tell you what. I will totally concede that you are right and I am wrong if you will give a single example of how a human being could possibly do anything that an omniscient God didn't already know they would do.

Since this question and your answer to it are part of my substantiation of the claim, please don't respond by saying the claim is unsubstantiated. You and I are working on it right now. . I await your response.

My apologies.
I missed this.
Thank you for the heads up.

The problem is that you have completely failed to show how someones/somethings foreknowledge of a choice being made effects the ability of someone else making said choice.

How exactly does my knowing that my daughter will choose vanilla ice cream effect her ability to choose?
How does my knowing that my dog will choose to eat the steak left on the table remove his ability to make decisions?

Well, thanks for responding but you still missed it.

I'll ask again, as the dialogue between you and I will produce the proof you seek. Please provide a single example of how a human being could possibly do anything that an omniscient God didn't already know they would do. If you find that it is NOT possible for a human to do such a thing, please acknowledge so and we'll move on to the next step of the proof.

 

[Beaudreaux]

In answer to your question, then; I would say, sin originates from the manifestation of Ego. And, because we are born into an already existing reality, ever since, we are always born both from and into sin.

Hi Hermit,

Since this thread is about origins, where would you say that the manifestation of Ego came from? Did someone/something create it?

 

[Abulafia]

My apologies.
I missed this.
Thank you for the heads up.

The problem is that you have completely failed to show how someones/somethings foreknowledge of a choice being made effects the ability of someone else making said choice.

How exactly does my knowing that my daughter will choose vanilla ice cream effect her ability to choose?
How does my knowing that my dog will choose to eat the steak left on the table remove his ability to make decisions?

I suggest reading my post (#72). It outlines that if you are not the creator, yet omniscient, there is still ability to have free will. If you are, well, #72.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Hi Hermit,

Since this thread is about origins, where would you say that the manifestation of Ego came from? Did someone/something create it?

Dear Beaudreaux,
The Ego (one's personal sense of being) in my opinion, is an inevitable effect of cerebral cognition. As such, it belongs entirely to the physical world.

I have written more on the subject elsewhere, but was not permitted to post a link here, since I have not made enough entries at this forum...

Until next time,
Hermit

 

[James Humphreys]

what is the origin of sin/evil? who is to blame for the existence of sin?if god is omnibenevolent, and his creation is perfect in his image, and there is no sin in heaven, then how could lucifer(god's creation) sin against god in heaven? it is said that lucifer felt pride and/or jealousy, both of which are considered sins. so how could sin be part of lucifer's nature if god created him in the absence of sin?

I think that the desire for love and to excel are God given attributes for both men and angels. Lucifer had the desire for more love from God, and he could also compare and realize that God loved Adam and Eve more than him. Jealousy was a natural byproduct of his (and our) nature, and was not evil in itself. If we experience jealousy there should be some productive way to channel that to bring about a positive outcome, just as it has the potential to go in a bad direction.

The question of evil is very difficult, but here I think are some key points:1)Evil is relational. It creates a sphere where God is not the subject, which happened when Adam and Eve responded to Lucifer. If they hadn't Lucifer would have had no choice but to return to God. 2)Adam and Eve were susceptible to temptation because they were still immature, physically and spiritually. Probably they were teenagers. 3)Love is the strongest force. Adam and Eve's free will was leading them toward God (not away). But they allowed the power of love, which should have allowed them to unite with God, to overwhelm them and their free will while they were immature.

 

[McBell]

Well, thanks for responding but you still missed it.

I'll ask again, as the dialogue between you and I will produce the proof you seek. Please provide a single example of how a human being could possibly do anything that an omniscient God didn't already know they would do. If you find that it is NOT possible for a human to do such a thing, please acknowledge so and we'll move on to the next step of the proof.

There is no example that can be given.
Now how about you show how some third unknown party knowing what decision you will make effects your ability to make said decision.

See, as far as I can tell, your "omniscient God" would have to actually prevent you from making an alternative choice.
This being the case, how does his knowing what will be chosen effect the ability to choose?

 

[idea]

I am the One Who forms light and creates darkness; Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Maker of all these.

Isaiah 45:7

Seems pretty clear.

You can spend pages nit picking about what omnibenevolence means... but there's you're answer.

you are Jewish... bara is better translated as "transform" not create...

I am the One Who forms light and transforms darkness; Who makes peace and transforms evil; I am the Lord, Maker of all these...

God transforms dark into light, evil into good - God makes things, forms what is eternal...

Hebrew Word Studies
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Pronunciation: "Qa-NeH"[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Meaning: To build a nest.[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Comments: This child root is a nest builder, one who builds a nest such as a bird. Also God as in Bereshiyt (Genesis) 14.19; "God most high creator (qaneh) of sky and earth". The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. While we see God as one who makes something from nothing (create), the Hebrews saw God like a bird who goes about acquiring and gathering materials to build a nest (qen), the sky and earth. The Hebrews saw man as the children (eggs) that God built the nest for. [/FONT]



Evil has no origin - it has always existed, as everything has always existed. - conservation of mass/energy - everything changes form, but nothing has an origin, everything is eternal without beginning, or end. God transforms what eternally exists - He is cleaning up a mess He did not make, and doing it without taking away anyone's free will.

 

[McBell]

Evil has no origin - it has always existed, as everything has always existed. - conservation of mass/energy - everything changes form, but nothing has an origin, everything is eternal without beginning, or end. God transforms what eternally exists - He is cleaning up a mess He did not make, and doing it without taking away anyone's free will.

wait...
You mean that Evil existed before god?

 

[idea]

wait...
You mean that Evil existed before god?

everything has always existed - good, and evil, and everything inbetween. there is no origin for any of it, so there's no one to blame for creating any of it. There is only transformation... we all decide how we want to be formed...

But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. - Isaiah 64:8

just transforming ugly lumps of clay.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Dear Beaudreaux,
The Ego (one's personal sense of being) in my opinion, is an inevitable effect of cerebral cognition. As such, it belongs entirely to the physical world.

I have written more on the subject elsewhere, but was not permitted to post a link here, since I have not made enough entries at this forum...

Until next time,
Hermit

Oh. I see. Since this thread is about origins, did someone/something create cerebral cognition?

 

[Beaudreaux]

There is no example that can be given.

Are you saying that there is no example of a human being taking an action that God did not foreknow because it is not possible for a human to take an action that God did not foreknow? It seems like that's what you're saying.

 

[idea]

God knows everything, but He does not cause everything. Knowing, and causing are 2 different things... I can look and see what will be on TV tonight, but that doesn't mean that I caused it....

We are our own cause.

 

[Beaudreaux]

God knows everything, but He does not cause everything. Knowing, and causing are 2 different things... I can look and see what will be on TV tonight, but that doesn't mean that I caused it....

We are our own cause.

It makes no difference practically. If God knows what you will do tomorrow, and he is infallible, then you WILL do what God knows and it is impossible for you to do anything else.

 

[McBell]

Are you saying that there is no example of a human being taking an action that God did not foreknow because it is not possible for a human to take an action that God did not foreknow? It seems like that's what you're saying.

Yeppers

Now please explain how that interferes with your ability to choose.
I do not see how it does, unless god tells you before you choose what you are going to choose

 

[McBell]

everything has always existed - good, and evil, and everything inbetween. there is no origin for any of it, so there's no one to blame for creating any of it. There is only transformation... we all decide how we want to be formed...

But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. - Isaiah64:8

just transforming ugly lumps of clay.

really?
and when did I decide to be a heterosexual male with oversized testicles and and an undersized penis?

Cause I sure as hell don't remember

 

[Beaudreaux]

Yeppers

Now please explain how that interferes with your ability to choose.
I do not see how it does, unless god tells you before you choose what you are going to choose

Perfect! Now we are getting somewhere!

Keep in mind what you have just affirmed as I roll out the pretty picture again. I will explain it in the light of your assertion; that it is impossible for us do to anything that God did not foreknow.

Let's consider any "descision" people would make. In any given situation, God knows the ONE thing you will do and, as you have said, it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to do anythine else. The illustration shows this clearly. In every situation you are in, there is only one possible thing you can do.

Now, since a choice involves MORE THAN ONE possible selection, there can be no "choice" for you if God knows what you will do. Before you go and say "You haven't proved it", is there ANY SINGLE PART of this argument that you would claim is false?

 

[Beaudreaux]

really?
And when did i decide to be a heterosexual male with oversized testicles and and an undersized penis?

Cause i sure as hell don't remember

tmi!!!! Tmi!!!!!!!

 

[McBell]

Perfect! Now we are getting somewhere!

Keep in mind what you have just affirmed as I roll out the pretty picture again. I will explain it in the light of your assertion; that it is impossible for us do to anything that God did not foreknow.





Let's consider any "descision" people would make. In any given situation, God knows the ONE thing you will do and, as you have said, it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to do anythine else. The illustration shows this clearly. In every situation you are in, there is only one possible thing you can do.

Now, since a choice involves MORE THAN ONE possible selection, there can be no "choice" for you if God knows what you will do. Before you go and say "You haven't proved it", is there ANY SINGLE PART of this argument that you would claim is false?

With you so far.

 

[Beaudreaux]

With you so far.

Well, then you're with me. We both agree that:

• A choice entails selectiing from more than one possible action in any given situation.
• God knows everything, so in any given situation, there can only ever be one possible action
• Therefore: If God knows everything, there is no such thing as "choice".