Dont turn this thread your personal jihad against Israel, please.
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What is the punishment for converting from Islam?
- Thread starter Godwilling
- Start date
Servant_of_the_One1
Well-Known Member
You can have that freedom where atheists are allowed to insult Allah swt , Prophet Jesus pbuh or holy spirit pbuh within christian countries.
Dialogue is welcome, but spreading hatred and calling for the destruction of islam(which ayaan is doing) is counterproductive.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
I'm asking a question.
she never did. She just fights for the women's rights.
Unless you want to affirm that gender inequality and considering women inferior is the essence of Islam
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
They didn't get the joke!
Servant_of_the_One1
Well-Known Member
@Servant_of_the_One
No one should ever kill another in the name of religion, even if they are speaking against it. What purpose does that serve, other than proving such religion is compulsive and barbaric?
No one should ever kill another in the name of religion, even if they are speaking against it. What purpose does that serve, other than proving such religion is compulsive and barbaric?
Absolutely right. Unless of course you're saying it doesn't also apply to US presidents and Prime Ministers of Israel.
Moshiur
Sunny
Death penalty
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error..." [Quran, 2:226]
"Say, 'The Truth is from your LORD': Let him who will believe, and let him who will reject it..." [Quran, 18:29]
"Say: 'O ye men! If ye are in doubt as to my religion, behold! I worship not what ye worship, other than Allah. But I worship Allah - who will take your souls at death: I am commanded to be in the ranks of the believers." [Quran, 10:104]
Quran have not a single verse what says leaving the faith penalty is death but this is mentioned in Haddith because God's previous revelation, Torah also have a simila commandment. It says, if anyone leave his/her religion or worship other gods then he/she must be put to death.
"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" [Deut, 13:6]
"gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the others,)" [Deut, 13:7]
"Do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him." [Deut, 13:8]
"YOU MUST CERTAINLY PUT HIM TO DEATH. YOUR HAND MUST BE THE FIRST IN PUTTING HIM TO DEATH, and then the hands of all the people." [Deut, 13:9]
"Stone him to death, because he tired to turn you away from the LORD your God..." [Deut, 13:10]
During the times of Prophet(Pbuh), few Pagans (of Mecca) converted to Islam only for attacking or do something against the Islam and later they changed their religion. So Prophet (Pbuh) commanded it.
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error..." [Quran, 2:226]
"Say, 'The Truth is from your LORD': Let him who will believe, and let him who will reject it..." [Quran, 18:29]
"Say: 'O ye men! If ye are in doubt as to my religion, behold! I worship not what ye worship, other than Allah. But I worship Allah - who will take your souls at death: I am commanded to be in the ranks of the believers." [Quran, 10:104]
Quran have not a single verse what says leaving the faith penalty is death but this is mentioned in Haddith because God's previous revelation, Torah also have a simila commandment. It says, if anyone leave his/her religion or worship other gods then he/she must be put to death.
"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" [Deut, 13:6]
"gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the others,)" [Deut, 13:7]
"Do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him." [Deut, 13:8]
"YOU MUST CERTAINLY PUT HIM TO DEATH. YOUR HAND MUST BE THE FIRST IN PUTTING HIM TO DEATH, and then the hands of all the people." [Deut, 13:9]
"Stone him to death, because he tired to turn you away from the LORD your God..." [Deut, 13:10]
During the times of Prophet(Pbuh), few Pagans (of Mecca) converted to Islam only for attacking or do something against the Islam and later they changed their religion. So Prophet (Pbuh) commanded it.
Applying 650AD Muslim death penalty for blasphemy today, makes no more sense than applying 1500BC laws from the Torah. Israel exists today as a Jewish/Palestinian state without enforcing the more outrageous directions of their early scripture, Europe exist today without treating heretics with death and torture, the way they were treated in the middle ages. America no longer drowns witches.
Islam is a newer religion, and perhaps many Muslims are not ready to give up the strictest Koranic laws overnight, my opinion is Mohammed would not enforce all those laws if he lived today, and conservative Muslims need to seriously lighten up on calling for strict sharia law, same as with strict Mosaic law, or strict Pauline law.
And Islam has the strictest laws against killing other Muslims; How does the Muslim terrorist that kills a bunch of Muslims think he is going to heaven, when the Koran clearly states he will go straight to hell for it.
Islam is a newer religion, and perhaps many Muslims are not ready to give up the strictest Koranic laws overnight, my opinion is Mohammed would not enforce all those laws if he lived today, and conservative Muslims need to seriously lighten up on calling for strict sharia law, same as with strict Mosaic law, or strict Pauline law.
And Islam has the strictest laws against killing other Muslims; How does the Muslim terrorist that kills a bunch of Muslims think he is going to heaven, when the Koran clearly states he will go straight to hell for it.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Which laws to give up ?
Well I'm not a practicing Muslim, but I respect Islamic religion and the Prophet(pbuh) greatly. But just off the top of my head I would think we have jails now, so we don't really need to punish thieves with amputations, we can put them in prison, and let them go when they repent. We also have mental hospitals, many "apostates" are mentally ill or delusional and can be treated with modern medicines in hospitals. Instead of death, Blasphemers that refuse to stop spreading lies about Allah subhana alla, can be imprisoned and deported to Western countries, where mocking God and belittling his prophets is accepted and allowed.
Female circumcision(which is not in the holy Koran) would be a good one to give up in African countries. Adultery is another offense that can easily be punished by Jail for a term instead of death, although personally I find that even too harsh, I would recommend a tatoo on the hand clearly stating "adulterer", then no devout Muslim would wish to marry them.
This is the 21st century, in most of the rest of the world women have rights almost equal to men, In Islam for one thousand years women had more rights, than women had in Christian or Jewish countries, The prophet Mohammed(pbuh) was WAY ahead of his times in extending more rights to women than anyone before him. Don't you think if he were living today he might give even more rights to Muslim women, like the right to an Islamic court decide custody of the children after divorce, for EITHER the man or the women.
And last but not least in the Prophets time women often got married as young as 10 years old, same in Europe, Same in America, but today we know much more than we did then, we know that children do not think like adults, they are not ready to commit to marriage, they don't even know what they are going to do when they grow up, So here in America we say you have to be 18 before you can get married. The law used to be 16. some people probably think it should be 21!!! In any case its an issue that needs to be discussed by Imam's and Islamic scholars, is it time to take a stand and say, "marrying under 18 is old fashioned, and what is religious about marrying very young girls, do the girls have a choice, do they truly want to get married??".
Allah is beneficent, merciful does he want our Upstanding men marrying children or adult women. Ask any of your scholars, Would Allah want us more to marry a child or a grown woman; do you think Allah would prefer we marry a grown woman, if so, maybe we should make it a law, that a child must be a grown adult before she lives with a husband. I hope and pray I am not giving bad advice. Sincerely Lyndon
Female circumcision(which is not in the holy Koran) would be a good one to give up in African countries. Adultery is another offense that can easily be punished by Jail for a term instead of death, although personally I find that even too harsh, I would recommend a tatoo on the hand clearly stating "adulterer", then no devout Muslim would wish to marry them.
This is the 21st century, in most of the rest of the world women have rights almost equal to men, In Islam for one thousand years women had more rights, than women had in Christian or Jewish countries, The prophet Mohammed(pbuh) was WAY ahead of his times in extending more rights to women than anyone before him. Don't you think if he were living today he might give even more rights to Muslim women, like the right to an Islamic court decide custody of the children after divorce, for EITHER the man or the women.
And last but not least in the Prophets time women often got married as young as 10 years old, same in Europe, Same in America, but today we know much more than we did then, we know that children do not think like adults, they are not ready to commit to marriage, they don't even know what they are going to do when they grow up, So here in America we say you have to be 18 before you can get married. The law used to be 16. some people probably think it should be 21!!! In any case its an issue that needs to be discussed by Imam's and Islamic scholars, is it time to take a stand and say, "marrying under 18 is old fashioned, and what is religious about marrying very young girls, do the girls have a choice, do they truly want to get married??".
Allah is beneficent, merciful does he want our Upstanding men marrying children or adult women. Ask any of your scholars, Would Allah want us more to marry a child or a grown woman; do you think Allah would prefer we marry a grown woman, if so, maybe we should make it a law, that a child must be a grown adult before she lives with a husband. I hope and pray I am not giving bad advice. Sincerely Lyndon
I know this is a bit of an oversimplification, but isn't most of the sectarian violence we see between Muslims based on the idea that one sect believes the members of the other sect to be apostates?
So, regardless of how individuals on this forum choose to interpret Islamic scripture, isn't the evidence in the world that millions of Muslims believe and act on the idea that apostates should be harshly punished for their apostasy?
So, regardless of how individuals on this forum choose to interpret Islamic scripture, isn't the evidence in the world that millions of Muslims believe and act on the idea that apostates should be harshly punished for their apostasy?
Shiites and sunnis are no more different and probably less different than Protestants and Catholics. They have lived peacefully in some places side by side for over a thousand years, they have much more in common than they have not. The strife between the two has gotten a lot worse, and the start of the strife coincides with the introduction of powerful outside non Islamic forces meddling and mucking around in their countries. At least that's my understanding of it. Perhaps one of our Muslim members could better explain the situation
how thoughtful of you
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Thank you for your reply.
My questions is why to have thieves in first place regardless of what kind of punishment is prepared for them.
I don't think that a peaceful apostate should be killed,punished or deported to any place, neither the quran said so.
Circumcision is a cultural thing that i don't agree with.
The quran didn't say that we should kill adulterers but i agree that severe punishment should be applied on them to stop STD from spreading which killed many innocent people worldwide.
Judging is complicated and it isn't about males or females but about justice, no one to be oppressed regardless of gender.
There is no a must in Islam regarding at what age we should be married, so yes i agree that marriage today is different than what it was thousands of years ago.
The quran states that woman should reach puberty and shouldn't be forced to marry, so no a must in which age to be married.
Thank you for your very thoughtful reply, Fear God, you are right, most of these very severe punishments we hear so much in the west happen very seldom in Muslim countries, and pardoning people sentenced to death is much more common than actual capital punishment, I was speaking if Islam may be willing to make some small concessions to Western sensibilities;
I would say no capital punishment for anything less than murder, raise the age of consent to 18 or at least 16, Replace amputations as a punishment in the few places where that is still practiced with prison sentences, rally against female circumcision, and more rights for women, rights that in some places only men have today. I'm not asking you to believe this, but imagine how incredibly far it would go to reduce hatred of the West towards Islam if Islam made some adaptations in the cause of a world peace between Muslims and Westerners, because the West's hatred of Islam is the driving force behind all the West's horribly evil interventions in Islamic countries, If there is any reduction in the West's hatred of Islam, Evil Western leaders will no longer have excuses or support to go to war with Islam.
In return the West needs to make some serious concessions of its own to Islam, get their troops the hell out of Muslim countries, Muslims do not need America's help with solving their own religion's, culture's and people's problems, Muslims are going to have to give up their idea of controlling the whole world, And Westerners are going to have give up their idea of controlling the Muslim world.
In the holy Koran in the final prophecies it talks about two paradises, One in the East (Islam) and one in the West (Christian??) THERE WILL BE NO FINAL HOLOCAUST BETWEEN THE WEST AND THE EAST killing everyone on earth, as some jamat ismaiyala were preaching at my Mosque. There has to be a Two state solution, just as in Israel/Palestine, there is going to need to be greater separation between the East and the West. Some Easterners living in the West are going to have to return to the East because they are not living peacefully in the West. Some Westerners and their troops stationed in the East, are going to have to return to the West because they are not helping the East at all.
I know its only a dream, but I am 52 and I dream of seeing world peace in my lifetime. I believe according to prophecy that world peace is not a fantasy but an attainable but very difficult task. All the Abrahamic religions envision peace at the end of this final war, either we take the steps to accomplish it quickly or more and more people die, we don't have time to be CONSERVATIVE, we don't have time to be FUNDAMENTALISTS, We need to come up with modern solutions to problems that hadn't even begun to exist in the Prophet's(pbuh) time.
sincerely Lyndon Taylor or Mahmoud Abdullah Khan(my muslim name)
I would say no capital punishment for anything less than murder, raise the age of consent to 18 or at least 16, Replace amputations as a punishment in the few places where that is still practiced with prison sentences, rally against female circumcision, and more rights for women, rights that in some places only men have today. I'm not asking you to believe this, but imagine how incredibly far it would go to reduce hatred of the West towards Islam if Islam made some adaptations in the cause of a world peace between Muslims and Westerners, because the West's hatred of Islam is the driving force behind all the West's horribly evil interventions in Islamic countries, If there is any reduction in the West's hatred of Islam, Evil Western leaders will no longer have excuses or support to go to war with Islam.
In return the West needs to make some serious concessions of its own to Islam, get their troops the hell out of Muslim countries, Muslims do not need America's help with solving their own religion's, culture's and people's problems, Muslims are going to have to give up their idea of controlling the whole world, And Westerners are going to have give up their idea of controlling the Muslim world.
In the holy Koran in the final prophecies it talks about two paradises, One in the East (Islam) and one in the West (Christian??) THERE WILL BE NO FINAL HOLOCAUST BETWEEN THE WEST AND THE EAST killing everyone on earth, as some jamat ismaiyala were preaching at my Mosque. There has to be a Two state solution, just as in Israel/Palestine, there is going to need to be greater separation between the East and the West. Some Easterners living in the West are going to have to return to the East because they are not living peacefully in the West. Some Westerners and their troops stationed in the East, are going to have to return to the West because they are not helping the East at all.
I know its only a dream, but I am 52 and I dream of seeing world peace in my lifetime. I believe according to prophecy that world peace is not a fantasy but an attainable but very difficult task. All the Abrahamic religions envision peace at the end of this final war, either we take the steps to accomplish it quickly or more and more people die, we don't have time to be CONSERVATIVE, we don't have time to be FUNDAMENTALISTS, We need to come up with modern solutions to problems that hadn't even begun to exist in the Prophet's(pbuh) time.
sincerely Lyndon Taylor or Mahmoud Abdullah Khan(my muslim name)
Hi Lyndon,
No doubt that there have been some horrible western interventions in the ME, and no doubt that they have worsened many of the region's problems.
That said, it's not accurate to say that sectarian violence is due to western interventions, that's harmful revisionist history. Ask yourself why we see so many Muslim sects attacking each other? (And we have seen this long before western interventions.) Ask yourself honestly about 1400 years of violent Islamic conquest. This is not to say that Christians aren't also guilty of a lot of violence - they are. But not being accurate about the true nature of Islam's history is not a path to peace.
No doubt that there have been some horrible western interventions in the ME, and no doubt that they have worsened many of the region's problems.
That said, it's not accurate to say that sectarian violence is due to western interventions, that's harmful revisionist history. Ask yourself why we see so many Muslim sects attacking each other? (And we have seen this long before western interventions.) Ask yourself honestly about 1400 years of violent Islamic conquest. This is not to say that Christians aren't also guilty of a lot of violence - they are. But not being accurate about the true nature of Islam's history is not a path to peace.