What is the Truth?

[siti]

Truth to me is simple.
When asked a question we tell the truth.
I am not going to get into when telling the truth may be harmful and all of that, just simple straight forward telling the truth.
Being honest, straight forward, "truthful".
This is truth.

But this seems to make truth merely the opposite of lies. But surely one could be entirely honest and 100% wrong?

 

[allfoak]

But this seems to make truth merely the opposite of lies. But surely one could be entirely honest and 100% wrong?

Truth is not about being right or wrong.
Our level of understanding is determined by our integrity, not by what books we read.

 

[siti]

Truth is not about being right or wrong.
Our level of understanding is determined by our integrity, not by what books we read.

Sorry - I'm not grokking this - If "truth is not about being right or wrong" (by which I think you mean correct or incorrect or perhaps accurate or inaccurate?) then what does "understanding" have to do with it anyway? And isn't 'integrity' basically the same as 'truthfulness'? And who said anything about reading books?

 

[allfoak]

Sorry - I'm not grokking this - If "truth is not about being right or wrong" (by which I think you mean correct or incorrect or perhaps accurate or inaccurate?) then what does "understanding" have to do with it anyway? And isn't 'integrity' basically the same as 'truthfulness'? And who said anything about reading books?

It all has to do with the knowledge of self.
Understanding is not whether you know the correctness of something, it is being honest about whether or not you know the correctness of something.
That is not just understanding, that is wisdom.

 

[siti]

It all has to do with the knowledge of self.
Understanding is not whether you know the correctness of something, it is being honest about whether or not you know the correctness of something. That is not just understanding, that is wisdom.

Oh I see - so you are really talking about how authentic or genuine a person is rather than truth per se. But surely even the most authentic of truth-seekers could still be duped or mistaken and inadvertently propagate untruth?

 

[allfoak]

Oh I see - so you are really talking about how authentic or genuine a person is rather than truth per se. But surely even the most authentic of truth-seekers could still be duped or mistaken and inadvertently propagate untruth?

Duped by whom?
Themselves?

 

[siti]

Duped by whom? Themselves?

Yes, among others - that's called self-justification and we all engage in it quite routinely. But also "no man is an island" even - if not especially - when it comes to determining 'truth' - and once we have become convinced by the reasoning of others, we are indeed capable of duping ourselves - and you don't need to look farther than some of our RF discussions to see evidence of self-justification in practice in the face of quite obviously irrational truth claims. I have no doubt that there remains an authentic and genuine desire for truth, but the arrow consistently and precisely strikes only an imaginary target and 'truth' (as such) remains as elusive as ever.

 

[allfoak]

Yes, among others - that's called self-justification and we all engage in it quite routinely. But also "no man is an island" even - if not especially - when it comes to determining 'truth' - and once we have become convinced by the reasoning of others, we are indeed capable of duping ourselves - and you don't need to look farther than some of our RF discussions to see evidence of self-justification in practice in the face of quite obviously irrational truth claims. I have no doubt that there remains an authentic and genuine desire for truth, but the arrow consistently and precisely strikes only an imaginary target and 'truth' (as such) remains as elusive as ever.

I don't seem to have a problem finding it.
It is inside of us, that makes it difficult to find.
I understand.

 

[siti]

I don't seem to have a problem finding it.
It is inside of us, that makes it difficult to find.
I understand.

You might not have a problem finding the truth, but you've lost me again I'm afraid!

 

[allfoak]

You might not have a problem finding the truth, but you've lost me again I'm afraid!

Another one on my many talents.

 

[dianaiad]

If i were to ask you a question, would you tell me the truth?
If you answered yes, then does this not imply that we all know the truth?

Insofar as I...a: know it, b: think it's any of your business, 3; care enough to deal with you. Otherwise? I'd ignore you.

Is there any question that you cannot answer truthfully if you desire to do so?

Quite a few, I imagine. The first qualification there is...do I know what the 'truth' is? Would you consider a partial truth to be acceptable? What if what I think is truth turns out to be..not true?

Isn't it easy to know the truth?

Good heavens, no.

 

[Thief]

Line?

yeah.....you know.....

i might tell you the truth.....and you might make denial

because your sense of truth might be less than mine!

hehehehe

 

[allfoak]

Insofar as I...a: know it, b: think it's any of your business, 3; care enough to deal with you. Otherwise? I'd ignore you.



Quite a few, I imagine. The first qualification there is...do I know what the 'truth' is? Would you consider a partial truth to be acceptable? What if what I think is truth turns out to be..not true?



Good heavens, no.

If you did not know the answer to a question would you admit that you did not know the answer?

 

[siti]

If you did not know the answer to a question would you admit that you did not know the answer?

I don't know

 

[allfoak]

I don't know

 

[dianaiad]

If you did not know the answer to a question would you admit that you did not know the answer?

I personally would, yeah....but then I'm old, and crochety, don't need to prove myself (or my intelligence) to anybody, and so, yeah, I would. Then I would ask the questioner if HE knew the answer, and if he didn't know, I'd grab him by the collar and go looking for it. The answer, that is.

It's a flaw.

See, the problem with being curious is this: one can't FIND answers if one is constantly pretending he already has 'em all.

If it makes me look foolish....fine. I'll look foolish until I figure out the answer. Then I will no longer be foolish in THAT thing. Those who pretend they know answers they don't will simply remain fools.

 

[allfoak]

I personally would, yeah....but then I'm old, and crochety, don't need to prove myself (or my intelligence) to anybody, and so, yeah, I would. Then I would ask the questioner if HE knew the answer, and if he didn't know, I'd grab him by the collar and go looking for it. The answer, that is.

It's a flaw.

See, the problem with being curious is this: one can't FIND answers if one is constantly pretending he already has 'em all.

If it makes me look foolish....fine. I'll look foolish until I figure out the answer. Then I will no longer be foolish in THAT thing. Those who pretend they know answers they don't will simply remain fools.

You are wise.

The truth that i am talking about here is the truth that a five year old understands.
When we ask someone to tell us the truth it is because we know that everyone is capable of telling the truth.
Even if the truth is, "I don't know".

 

[siti]

So are we to expect a 5-year-old to be able to tell us the truth about Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy? Is "the truth" no more than an honest statement of what we believe at a particular time?

 

[dianaiad]

So are we to expect a 5-year-old to be able to tell us the truth about Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy? Is "the truth" no more than an honest statement of what we believe at a particular time?

Pretty much, I think...yep.

At least in terms of what the speaker believes, anyway.

Now, if you are talking about relating empirical scientific facts...then I doubt that any of us can tell the truth about anything. At least, we can't tell the complete truth about anything. We can only touch on the relative bits that are important at the time, if indeed we know what they are.

As to philosophical Truth, well....that IS a very subjective thing. So a five year old can tell you all about Santa Claus, and be telling Truth, and when my mom told ME about Santa Claus when I was 'Old Enough to Know the Truth," she said that Santa was very real until we understood the point, and then WE became Santa. That too is Truth, and I still believe in Santa Claus, in that Truth.

See?

Easy.

 

[allfoak]

So are we to expect a 5-year-old to be able to tell us the truth about Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy? Is "the truth" no more than an honest statement of what we believe at a particular time?

A 5 year old will speak the truth because it makes him/her happy knowing he/she did the right thing.
A foolish adult will lie thinking somehow they will gain something.