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What is the Truth?

siti

Well-Known Member
when my mom told ME about Santa Claus when I was 'Old Enough to Know the Truth," she said that Santa was very real until we understood the point, and then WE became Santa.
Your Mum sounds really nice but that sounds exactly like the kind of self-justification I was talking about before - like your Mum was looking for a way not to admit that she had been lying to you about Santa Claus all along. And you are now perpetuating that self-justification. I'm not saying it is wrong (far from it) - just that it is not truthful. I think its in our nature, unavoidable and often to our credit that we do not "tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" all the time. And if we don't acknowledge that, then we can start not only to believe, but to believe in, our own fantastical, mythological and metaphorical characterizations of reality - which is bad enough if they are our own - but an abandonment of authentic integrity if they are handed down from someone else.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Your Mum sounds really nice but that sounds exactly like the kind of self-justification I was talking about before - like your Mum was looking for a way not to admit that she had been lying to you about Santa Claus all along. And you are now perpetuating that self-justification. I'm not saying it is wrong (far from it) - just that it is not truthful. I think its in our nature, unavoidable and often to our credit that we do not "tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" all the time. And if we don't acknowledge that, then we can start not only to believe, but to believe in, our own fantastical, mythological and metaphorical characterizations of reality - which is bad enough if they are our own - but an abandonment of authentic integrity if they are handed down from someone else.

"not truthful" according to whom?

It's not FACT....but that's not the same thing. What Mom told me, and what I told my own children, is indeed true: the point behind Santa...joyful giving, celebration, family fun, all the stuff that goes with it including the exploration of childhood fantasy..is a good one. Plain old fact can be very depressing, all things considered. So...for me, the 'truth' of Santa is truth enough.

this is especially true when 'plain old fact' turns out, eventually, not to be plain...or fact. then where do we go?

But then, hey. I'm the one who said, in another thread, that all mythology is True and worth knowing, because it teaches us important things about the human condition and human interaction.

Please don't confuse fact with Truth. They aren't remotely the same things. Indeed, facts (if they actually ARE facts and not just human opinions about 'that which is') may be true, but not all truths are facts.

Perhaps I live in a gooier world than you do?
 

siti

Well-Known Member
A 5 year old will speak the truth because it makes him/her happy knowing he/she did the right thing.
Oh dear! How many 5-year-olds have you brought up? I can tell you (after 4 younger siblings, 3 kids and 2 grandchildren - so far) that that statement is simply not true. A 5-yo will instinctively lie if they think they are going to be in trouble when the truth becomes known. I recall a study a while back that suggested that more than 90% of kids that age tell lies.
 

allfoak

Alchemist
Oh dear! How many 5-year-olds have you brought up? I can tell you (after 4 younger siblings, 3 kids and 2 grandchildren - so far) that that statement is simply not true. A 5-yo will instinctively lie if they think they are going to be in trouble when the truth becomes known. I recall a study a while back that suggested that more than 90% of kids that age tell lies.
nevermind
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Plain old fact can be very depressing, all things considered.
Agreed - but that does not make counterfactual statements true - it just means that fantasy is sometimes preferable to truth - which was kinda my point.
...all mythology is True and worth knowing, because it teaches us important things about the human condition and human interaction.
But that is where I think you are confusing fact and truth - the fact that a story teaches us something that is true does not make the elements of the story factual - the story itself is not true - it is a pointer (perhaps) to a deeper truth, but the story is nevertheless a story. And that is the error far too many people make with (for example) our scriptural heritage - attempting (one way or another) to establish the factuality of the literary devices - imagery, parable, hyperbole, figurative and illustrative language even - and elevating the devices to the status of 'revealed' reality whilst at the same time entirely missing the 'truth' it was (probably) meant to convey. So whilst
Our level of understanding is determined by our integrity, not by what books we read.
the accuracy of our estimation of truth may very well be determined by how we read them.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
If i were to ask you a question, would you tell me the truth?
If you answered yes, then does this not imply that we all know the truth?
Is there any question that you cannot answer truthfully if you desire to do so?

Isn't it easy to know the truth?

There are many Truths, with a capital T. Contradictions are the eye of the beholder. If I believe the Truth that two and two is four and you believe the Truth that two and two is five, both of us are not wrong. Truth has to do with morality not a universal fact. Truth is defined by our experiences, our culture, language, and environment. It defines how we see the world.

If we were looking for Facts, then I would be right and the other person would be wrong. Since Truth is not about facts, there are many Truths regardless of what they are.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry
We are just going around in circles.
You don't seem to be able to understand what I am saying.
Its fine.
OK - I didn't think we were going round in circles but I agree - as I noted earlier - I am not really grokking your argument - no worries!
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Oh dear! How many 5-year-olds have you brought up? I can tell you (after 4 younger siblings, 3 kids and 2 grandchildren - so far) that that statement is simply not true. A 5-yo will instinctively lie if they think they are going to be in trouble when the truth becomes known. I recall a study a while back that suggested that more than 90% of kids that age tell lies.


If a kid told you that their bouncy ball is blue but you knew it was green, was that kid lying to you (telling you something that is not true) or telling you the truth (something he morally knows is true even though its factually wrong)?

If a kid put up five fingers and tried to make six but accidently put up seven, is he lying or is he telling the truth for him even thouvh it is factually wrong?

As we grow older we tend to understand what we consider as a lie and the difference between children and adults is we Know when we are lying most of the time and what what some of us consider a fact a contradiction.

A child is innocent of this as he is still learning and growing what morals and right and wrong the parent teaches them. Their lies are not moral. They ACTUALLY believe six fingers is seven even though they are factually wrong.

Adults dont give themselves credit and see the innocence of making a mistake and forgiving themselves as a child does at a young age given his attention span and uderstanding.

Some parents instil in the child he is always wrong and we see children as liers because of it. Its not the childs fault. He is morally right in His own view. Its the parents who take the innocence out of him and see him and tell him he is a lier. He grows to youth and tries to "rebell the innocence" because he was taughy one thing, he does another, and his parents chastise him for it. The youth becomes comfused.

Say the family is chistian. As an adult because of his upbringing he starts to see himself as a sinner because that is how he was taught about reality: when you do something morally wrong its a lie (something that isnt a fact).

Now you and many adults see children as liers. While children at their youngest are the most innocent. Maybe in Our hearts we want to be like a child again. I live with adults who are 60 years and older. One lady had her 100th birthday last year. Im only 35. So I understand and am innocent compared to them" because that thought of inherited lies is in them deep.


"Thats whats wrong with the world today" thinking the world is evil at heart.

"He should get the death penalty" death is death. Age makes no difference.

But some say it does. "A child doesnt know"...

"Okay, the child doesnt know. Is he a lier, then or is he innocent at a young age?"

"Hes a lier"

"Then why dont you kill him in death penalty."

Adults are so conflicted. And I mean adults. Go back to childhood. Maybe our perspectives would change.

Perfect Zen.
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
What is the Truth?

Truth is a name/attribute of G-d:
Verse (23:116)

Sahih International: So exalted is Allah , the Sovereign, the Truth; there is no deity except Him, Lord of the Noble Throne.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran

He is Evident, one has just to tread on His truthful path consistently and steadfastly. Every human could directly address him, no need of any intermediary. Please
Regards


 

allfoak

Alchemist
Undefined. You need to ask at least two questions. The first you already asked.

Ciao

- viole
In order to lie we must have some idea of what is the truth.
Regardless of the second question, one still knows what it means to know the truth.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
If i were to ask you a question, would you tell me the truth?
If you answered yes, then does this not imply that we all know the truth?
Is there any question that you cannot answer truthfully if you desire to do so?

Isn't it easy to know the truth?
Any words I can give you are not the truth, they are just words. Any answers I offer are answers, nothing more.

We all know truth, but it's ineffable.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Now you and many adults see children as liers.

I didn't say the child IS a liar - and having experience of actually dealing with with young children on an almost daily basis for longer than I care to remember I would NEVER say that the child IS a liar - or that the child IS any other negative attribution. But that is not to say that young children are incapable of telling lies - and I don't mean factual errors - I mean lies.

Example: "Have you brushed your teeth?" - "Yes, Grandpa" - "are you sure you have brushed your teeth?" - "Yes Grandpa" - "You know if don't brush your teeth, your teeth will get bad and you might have to have one or two pulled out?" - "Yes Grandpa" - "OK - do you really want that to happen?" - "No Grandpa" - "Have you brushed your teeth?" - "No Grandpa - I am going to do it now." - "That's good - thank you sweetheart".

The mistake here is the assumption that truth - as in telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is always GOOD and telling lies is always BAD. That simply is not so - for children or adults.

Bottom line: would the world really be a better place if everyone was entirely truthful all the time? I say no! For one thing there would be no Santa Claus (for example) - for another I would not have had numerous experiences where my heart touches the heart of my children and grandchildren - like the simple - everyday - example I have just mentioned.

There is more to "the truth" than simply not telling lies - that's all I was trying to say.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I didn't say the child IS a liar - and having experience of actually dealing with with young children on an almost daily basis for longer than I care to remember I would NEVER say that the child IS a liar - or that the child IS any other negative attribution. But that is not to say that young children are incapable of telling lies - and I don't mean factual errors - I mean lies.

Example: "Have you brushed your teeth?" - "Yes, Grandpa" - "are you sure you have brushed your teeth?" - "Yes Grandpa" - "You know if don't brush your teeth, your teeth will get bad and you might have to have one or two pulled out?" - "Yes Grandpa" - "OK - do you really want that to happen?" - "No Grandpa" - "Have you brushed your teeth?" - "No Grandpa - I am going to do it now." - "That's good - thank you sweetheart".

The mistake here is the assumption that truth - as in telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is always GOOD and telling lies is always BAD. That simply is not so - for children or adults.

Bottom line: would the world really be a better place if everyone was entirely truthful all the time? I say no! For one thing there would be no Santa Claus (for example) - for another I would not have had numerous experiences where my heart touches the heart of my children and grandchildren - like the simple - everyday - example I have just mentioned.

There is more to "the truth" than simply not telling lies - that's all I was trying to say.

I was just explaining there is a difference between lies and truth. A child tells lies all the time. If he didn't brush his teeth but says that he does, that is a lie. If he believes he did honestly and with intent regardless if he didn't, that relates to truth. The former is factual and the latter based on morals.

I feel children are more innocent in their moral truth in that they are just learning what it means to be in the world without the parents giving them the sense of what they feel is right or wrong. Whether they tell factual lies, as many children do, isn't really the point (that's why I replied to your post), it's that children see the world differently than adults. Even just looking at a child in a "lower standard" (my words) is doing what children do not do without the parent teaching them who has the upper hand and who doesn't.

I also don't believe there is on truth. That "one-truth", one right or wrong answer, one this and one that, has plagued American society and people of like-minds for thousands of years. It got people killed over it.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
If i were to ask you a question, would you tell me the truth?
If you answered yes, then does this not imply that we all know the truth?
Is there any question that you cannot answer truthfully if you desire to do so?

Isn't it easy to know the truth?
Too many answers for this one! But let's try.

My very first response is (as it must be, see my tag-line) is that there is no such thing as "The Truth." Truth is not a thing, truth is a statement about some statement. Without a statement or assertion to refer to, "truth" has no meaning.

If you were to ask me a question, would tell you the truth? It depends upon the question! And the circumstance. (Kant, of course, would disagree with me.) If I were carrying you off the battlefield with a mortal wound, and you asked "am I going to make it?" I don't know that I would be honest and say, "with that wound? No, you probably have about 2 1/2 minutes." Would you want me to?

Since I did not answer "yes," that certainly doesn't imply that I know all truth -- even if I did know that you were bleeding out and had less than 3 minutes to go. But what does knowledge of truth have to do with my reasons for uttering or withholding it?

Is there any question that I cannot answer truthfully if I desire to do so? Well, if I'm willing to say "I don't know," and you think that's an acceptable answer, then no. I can answer every question truthfully, if I desire to do so.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
I feel children are more innocent in their moral truth in that they are just learning what it means to be in the world without the parents giving them the sense of what they feel is right or wrong. Whether they tell factual lies...
I also don't believe there is on truth. That "one-truth", one right or wrong answer, one this and one that, has plagued American society and people of like-minds for thousands of years. It got people killed over it.
Bringing the idea of moral truth in is beyond what I was really talking about in regard to children...but I got the impression that perhaps the idea of it being morally right to speak factual truth and morally wrong to speak factual untruth (knowingly) was being elevated to the status of a moral truth. Perhaps my impression was wrong, but it was that idea that I was responding to throughout. I think the morality of lying is not to do with the factuality of the statements but the intent to cause or the actual occurrence of harm to another. So a child is not IMO morally reprehensible for telling a fib about brushing his teeth - (although parents are obviously well-advised to encourage truthfulness for the sake of the child - if they don't learn to trust their parents with the truth about tooth-brushing - you might not get to know really important things that the child would be even more challenged to admit). Neither is a parent morally reprehensible for not telling the truth about Santa or the tooth fairy - there is no intent to cause or any actual occurrence of harm. But, if someone deliberately concocts a set of fake moral rules and religious observations for the purpose of enhancing their own fame and fortune to the detriment (emotionally, spiritually, educationally and financially) of their hoped-for followers - then there is both intent to cause harm and actual harm does occur - that IMO is morally reprehensible. And if, as a responsible adult, I fail to take the time and effort to check (to the best of my ability) the veracity of the concocted claims to truth and thereby contribute, by negligence, to the propagation of untruth about the world, God,...etc. then I too become morally reprehensible for the damage I have helped to inflict on others. That is to say that when it comes to "the truth", ignorance may be a reasonable defense but wilful ignorance is equal to culpability. But we still have to look inside ourselves to make that judgement.
 
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Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
If i were to ask you a question, would you tell me the truth?
If you answered yes, then does this not imply that we all know the truth?
Is there any question that you cannot answer truthfully if you desire to do so?

Isn't it easy to know the truth?
Depends upon the question and the circumstances, doesn't it???
 
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