What is wrong with calling Islam religion of peace?

[Kirran]

Please ask Doctor Who to visit America. Its possible Trump is an alien in disguise capable of hypnotizing humans.

If I see him, I'll be sure to.

I think they have a new one now though! Last one I knew was Matt-whatever-his-name-was.

 

[J2hapydna]

I have already said that I would welcome the growth of more liberal and rationalistic version of Islam. But much of Islam, and most of its schools today interpret Quran and Hadith in a way that is in-commensurable with the idea that it is a religion of peace. Thus, as far as the question "Is Islam a religion of peace?" can be made meaningful and sensible, the answer would be no.

Of course Hinduism is not a religion of peace overall, though specific groups within it may be very pacifist.

Peaceful versions have existed from the beginning of MPs ministry in areas such as the Axumite Empire. However I do agree that the Orthodox form of Islam that emerged with the Umayyads is incompatible with peace

 

[J2hapydna]

This is not supposed to be confusing. If I say "your country" will you be confused and say "define what i mean by your country when it is composed of millions of citizens with many parties, ideologies and way of life with multiple interpretation of its constitution?" If you are a conscientious objector to war based on your interpretation of the Constitution and your allegiance to a specific party within it (say you are a Gandhian in India), it does not mean that your country is a pacifist country. See the difference?

Countries have physical boundaries. So it is easy to say who does and doesn't live within those boundaries. However religions are more abstract. For example, do you believe JWs, Arians, Ebionites and UUs are/ were Christians?

So, you need to explain how you are using the word Islam. What are its boundaries in your opinion. Then I will let you know whether I fall within that definition or not. For example Mr Trump is an American citizen. However the President of Mexico and Fidel Castro are also Americans, but not citizens of the same country. This is because the word American has multiple meanings. Similarly the word Islam has multiple meanings. If you didn't know these different meanings you would look pretty silly telling Castro about how you hate his country because you don't like Trumps policies and Americans.

 

[Kirran]

Countries have physical boundaries. So it is easy to say who does and doesn't live within those boundaries. However religions are more abstract. For example, do you believe JWs, Arians, Ebionites and UUs are/ were Christians?

So, you need to explain how you are using the word Islam. What are its boundaries in your opinion. Then I will let you know whether I fall within that definition or not. For example Mr Trump is an American citizen. However the President of Mexico and Fidel Castro are also Americans, but not citizens of the same country. This is because the word American has multiple meanings. Similarly the word Islam has multiple meanings. If you don't know these meanings you would look pretty silly telling Castro about how you hate his country because you don't like Trumps policies and Americans

When you fill in a form and it asks your religion, which box do you tick?

 

[sayak83]

Countries have physical boundaries. So it is easy to say who does and doesn't live within those boundaries. However religions are more abstract. For example, do you believe JWs, Arians, Ebionites and UUs are/ were Christians?

So, you need to explain how you are using the word Islam. What are its boundaries in your opinion. Then I will let you know whether I fall within that definition or not. For example Mr Trump is an American citizen. However the President of Mexico and Fidel Castro are also Americans, but not citizens of the same country. This is because the word American has multiple meanings. Similarly the word Islam has multiple meanings. If you didn't know these different meanings you would look pretty silly telling Castro about how you hate his country because you don't like Trumps policies and Americans.

Do you think Allah is the Supreme God who caused the writing of the Quran through His prophet Muhammad and hence Quran is the word of God ?

 

[Kirran]

Do you think Allah is the Supreme God who caused the writing of the Quran through His prophet Muhammad and hence Quran is the word of God ?

Some more theologically liberal people who I'd call Muslims might say no to this. Might be more along the lines of 'the Qur'an is the record of the revelation of God' kinda thing.

 

[J2hapydna]

When you fill in a form and it asks your religion, which box do you tick?

Which form? I don't fill forms that ask me my religion.

 

[YmirGF]

Some more theologically liberal people who I'd call Muslims might say no to this. Might be more along the lines of 'the Qur'an is the record of the revelation of God' kinda thing.

Considering that the vast majority of Muslims do believe it is the literal word of god, authored by Allah himself, I'm puzzled why you would pay much attention to such fringe group sentiments.

 

[Kirran]

Considering that the vast majority of Muslims do believe it is the literal word of god, authored by Allah himself, I'm puzzled why you would pay much attention to such fringe group sentiments.

I would dispute you calling them quite as fringe as all that, although I suppose that is to some extent subjective.

As for my reasoning, it's because I find any definition of Islam which excludes them to be an inaccurate one.

Although I don't think religions are generally really united by doctrine, but by group identity.

 

[sayak83]

Some more theologically liberal people who I'd call Muslims might say no to this. Might be more along the lines of 'the Qur'an is the record of the revelation of God' kinda thing.

Consider this a conversation starter...

 

[lewisnotmiller]

When you fill in a form and it asks your religion, which box do you tick?

Yeah, so that's an epically bad way to judge religion.
I mean to say, I have 'atheist' listed as mine here on a religious forum, and I should know better!

 

[Kirran]

Yeah, so that's an epically bad way to judge religion.
I mean to say, I have 'atheist' listed as mine here on a religious forum, and I should know better!

Well, it's a good way to see what people identify as when free to pick what they like. And religious adherence is about personal identification, IMO.

 

[J2hapydna]

Right, I said earlier they don't adhere to Imamic infallibility. The Twelvers don't currently have an Imam either.

Ah sure, but's hardly Sunni doctrine.

@Sakeenah, will you comment on Zaydis being Shias or Sunnis?

The 12ers believe the 12th Imam is alive, so they can't have another. In addition they believe Imams are infallible.

As I have shown, some analysts believe they are Sunni. I even gave you links. The basic argument is:

They follow the Sunni Hanafi madhab. They side with Abo Bakr on Fadk. They don't believe the Rashidun committed a sin by becoming caliphs before Ali. The only reason they are considered Shia is because they would have preferred Ali. so it is a political view not really a strong religious view. For these reasons they are also not fully Shia

 

[Kirran]

The 12ers believe the 12th Imam is alive, so they can't have another. In addition they believe Imams are infallible.

As I have shown, some analysts believe they are Sunni. I even gave you links. The basic argument is:

They follow the Sunni Hanafi madhab. They side with Abo Bakr on Fadk. They don't believe the Rashidun committed a sin by becoming caliphs before Ali. The only reason they are considered Shia is because they would have preferred Ali. so it is a political view not really a strong religious view. For these reasons they are also not fully Shia

It's not about madhhab. It's about the Imamah. You don't have to be Twelver to be Shia.

If, for example, you put in to google 'are Zaydis Shia?' every single result seems to say yes. I acknowledge that these might be all sorts of poor sources, but every scholar I have seen says they're Shia. Of course, an important determiner would be the opinions of actual Zaydis - I have yet to ever hear of a Zaydi saying they're a Sunni.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Well, it's a good way to see what people identify as when free to pick what they like. And religious adherence is about personal identification, IMO.

True. Our government got very pissy when people started marking 'Jedi' as their religion of choice on the countries census though. Whilst that happened in many countries around the world, it REALLY took off here. Almost 70,000 people listed Jedi as their religion. The rumour (probably untrue) was that legally the government would officially recognise any religion receiving 10,000 'votes' as being legitimate.
New Zealand and Britain had the same thing happen at even higher levels.

There was mention of a possible fine at some point, but given the nature of the census, and of religious identification itself (as you say, there's an element of personal identification) I think it would have been a disaster if they went that route.

 

[J2hapydna]

Do you think Allah is the Supreme God who caused the writing of the Quran through His prophet Muhammad and hence Quran is the word of God ?

I know an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi who believes exactly what you have stated. Would you consider him a Muslim or would you like to
rephrase your definition? If not then I am fine with it and will be more than happy to answer your question.

 

[sayak83]

I know an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi who believes exactly what you have stated. Would you consider him a Muslim or would you like to
rephrase your definition? If not then I am fine with it and will be more than happy to answer your question.

No, I do not wish to rephrase my question. Please continue.

 

[J2hapydna]

It's not about madhhab. It's about the Imamah. You don't have to be Twelver to be Shia.

If, for example, you put in to google 'are Zaydis Shia?' every single result seems to say yes. I acknowledge that these might be all sorts of poor sources, but every scholar I have seen says they're Shia. Of course, an important determiner would be the opinions of actual Zaydis - I have yet to ever hear of a Zaydi saying they're a Sunni.

Have you ever heard of Unitarians and JWs calling themselves Christian? Does that make them Christians?

Generally, I think, die hard Sunni consider them Shia and die hard 12er Shia consider them Sunni.

What is important about them is to know that some of them lean towards Shia identity and others to Sunni, but they really don't fit the mold of either. Personally, I don't think thats such a horrible thing. Why is it important to you that they be labeled Shia when they are clearly somewhere in the middle?

 

[J2hapydna]

No, I do not wish to rephrase my question. Please continue.

In that case, you have a pretty liberal definition of Islam.

Now as long as you consider my Orthodox Jewish friend a Muslim and consider the Baha'i etc as Muslims, then you are welcome to consider me one too. Although, personally, I am inclined to use an even more liberal definition of the term, I have no problem using your definition in our discussions.

 

[Kirran]

Have you ever heard of Unitarians and JWs calling themselves Christian? Does that make them Christians?

Generally, I think, die hard Sunni consider them Shia and die hard 12er Shia consider them Sunni.

What is important about them is to know that some of them lean towards Shia identity and others to Sunni, but they really don't fit the mold of either. Personally, I don't think thats such a horrible thing. Why is it important to you that they be labeled Shia when they are clearly somewhere in the middle?

R.e. JWs and Unitarians - yes and yes.

Socially and politically they function as Shias, and that's their own identity. They're sponsored by Iran in proxy wars.