psychoslice
Veteran Member
To call Islam a religion of peace is a complete lie, what is so hard about that ?.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
What is wrong with calling Islam religion of peace?
- Thread starter sovietchild
- Start date
Notanumber
A Free Man
If, as your post suggests, you are Turkish, what did you think of the failed coup, would it have been a good thing or a bad thing?
Is Sharia Law likely to be brought in by the current government?
T.I.A.
Sir Syed actually wrote a "Commentary on the Bible" advocating such. I agree with his conclusion
Also Quran 28:48-49 and 3:199 would have to be ignored to do otherwise.
Like I said the Umayyads didn't understand what MP was teaching or they would have at the very least known about and documented the verses in the Bible that the Quran was talking about in 28:48-49 and 6:20. It is quite clear from the Hadith and Sira that the Umayyads had no clue what the Quran was saying in these verses and made no effort to find out what MP had taught Najashi. So rather than find out what the Quran was talking about they cooked up stories about how the Jews and Christians had collaborated to remove accounts of MP from the Bible. They probably did this to extract Jizya. These were ridiculous accusations by the Umayyads that make no sense to any secular person with even a modest understanding of history. There was no way Jews and Christians could have collaborated to make such changes after MP as the two religions were at war. In addition according to the Quran Najashi had a Bible which he was using with the Quran. So the Umayyads could document the evidence if there were any changes. Furthermore we can read the DSS and other Bibles that predate MP that archaeologists have discovered to prove no passages were removed. So it is a preposterous charge. So we can can tell this was a malicious fabricated charge
Finally, if the Bible had been abrogated then what do the Umayyads claim replaced it? The Shariah Hadith and Sira? I don't think so. In addition if we accept the Umayyid logic, then what distinguishes Islam from Judaism and Christianity in terms of evidence for the existence of God? It is quite obvious to me that the Umayyads had no idea and wouldn't even understand the question. They came out of the desert ignorant with no idea what MP was really teachings and created a religion in their own image
Last edited:
Notanumber
A Free Man
This thread is so big I couldn't read all of it but I have a question
If a group of peoples try to kill you,what would you do? Let them kill you? So if a religion said that to you.you people would've bring out the fact now that why a religion doesn't give enough importance to ones life! Right? So the fact that people will forever question and doubt things no matter how blessful that is,this kinda threads will never end!
I respect all religion but the fact that I can bring out MANY wrong stuffs about a religion just by reading a false book written by stupid scholars
Alhamdulillah,I have such common sense. That's why before exploring other religious matters I search for the most reliable thing...which is actually every religions core"the holy book"
So you obviously won't tolerate me pointing out stupid negative things which are NOT EVEN true,not even written in the main book,right?
And so I have a request to you all,do not read hadith.read the Qur'an, its forever unchangeable and don't go and search on google and read articles from sites,be wise and read directly from the book!
And don't just come into an argument without reading the previous and after verses,as it totally changes the meaning!
As cause of that,I usually don't argue about religions...cause my resources can be wrong!
As again,respect all religion, remember we all are from the same earth, we all are the same! Just different belief and faith!I love you all ^-^
P.S: m very bad at English, so if you don't understand me m sorry and m just 16! So,immature way to answer is reasonable right? XD and i believe no religion can cause harm
I have some questions for you.
Who told you which books are written by stupid scholars?
Who told you which verses to read and in what order to read them?
Does it not concern you that Islam forbids independent thought?
I am pleased that at the age of 16 you have joined an internet forum where you can access the thoughts of others that disagree with the ideology of Islam. Education is a marvellous thing.
Pops
New Member
Thank you so much for explaining so nicely
I know that hadith is there to help you when you don't understand a verse of Qur'an
But since there are lots of hadith's,pure and impure.its hard to find the pure one!
As for us Muslims having basic knowledge of Islam we'll know which one is pure and which one is not,and finding problems we instantly go to Qur'an,and read the verse ourselves to understand
But if m a non believer, and came across sites to to know about Islam,I get hadith references pointing at Muhammad(pbuh) being pedo,Allah telling us to kill all the non believers etc.
And since my brain is filled with such misconceptions by media.I won't take the time to search for the pure site,will I? No they don't!
Especially in a era where giving time for religion is a way out of trend(Lol?)
Now,there's nothing to blame them,cause they know that there are hadiths,which explains Qur'an!
And read those things in hadith so obviously Quran means it
Now,its our duty to tell them that it can be impure sometimes,there are thousand hadith's bla bla
They'll eventually stop listening!
So the best way to make them understand is to tell them to only read from Qur'an which is pure and forever unchangeable.
Let me give you an example
Few days ago,I've went to google and searched to learn facts about Christians, and ended up in sites where there were written bad things about Jesus(pbuh)
But since he was our prophet,I understood those were fake and later looked for facts in the Bible!
Same happened with Hinduism
But I'm this case,I actually got caught up with bad things written about it and stupid things it tells them to do,since I have no basic knowledge about Hinduism and know nothing.
I kinda took them literally, but later from a Hindu friend I understood that those were fake.
So,on behalf of my own witness I tell people to read the Quran,so that it doesn't become so hard for them to look for the pure knowledge,and so that they don't end up acknowledging fake facts.
I hope this cleared what I wanted to say,but since I have problem of not writing things properly,people end up understanding wrong stuffs
And just for a clean ending:
*Imagine,I gave you two bowls:
1)filled with pure fruits and impure fruits
2) a pure fruit
And told you to eat from one,which one will you choose? No.2 right? Get it? ._.
-just an add up for this thread-
A careful and unbiased study of these and other verses, in their proper context, will reveal that the exhortations to fight “idolaters” and “unbelievers” are specific in nature and are not general injunctions for the murder of all those who refuse to accept Islam as their way of life.
Among the most often cited verses is this one: “Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, and capture them, and blockade them, and watch for them at every lookout...” (Quran 9:5).
According to Islamic belief, the Quran was “revealed” to Muhammad in a process of dialog with the Divine, and some parts of the Quran refer to specific situations, while other parts offer universal spiritual principles. To understand this passage, we must take into account the historical circumstances at the time of its revelation.
P.S- I'm having some serious problem understanding this forum,so,wrote and posted stupid stuffs.didn't understand what's happening! Sorry for that. Newbie ^-^
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
That's actually quite fascinating, but you would have to admit that it represents a fairly minor opinion, correct?
Most of us wouldn't condonetaking a life unless that person had taken another person's life. So whose life had MP taken at that point?
I'm afraid you might be suffering from the natural born killer disease, of wanting to kill others preemptively. In which case our discussion needs to come to an end. Thank you for your time though
Last edited:
Pops
New Member
Thank you ^-^
And I'm sorry sir but i didn't quite understand your questions
What you meant by who? Like as in?
Notanumber
A Free Man
No problem, but it was worth asking.
Notanumber
A Free Man
Hindsight is a marvellous thing, but the Meccan's had great foresight.
“I'm afraid you might be suffering from the natural born killer disease, of wanting to kill others pre-emptively” – Is that the disease that Muhammad was suffering from?
I touched on this a little bit in post 609. In my opinion there is a class of Muslims who appreciate these ideas or reach similar conclusions to varying degrees. Some reach them emotionally and culturally. For example in The land of Najashi
https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bi...and_the_Challenge_of_Diversity.pdf?sequence=1
Other Muslims reach these ideas rationally such as Sir Syed who was a very influential figure among Muslims of India. He is still very highly regarded among intellectual Muslims in India and Pakistan. In India he founded the first Muslim University that taught secular and scientific subjects to Muslims in the world, known as Aligargh. In Pakistan there exists a huge memorial to honor him in the center of Islamabad- the capital city. There are several schools, colleges and universities named after him there too
Enlightenment and Islam: Sayyid Ahmad Khan's Plea to Indian Muslims for Reason
Last edited:
Notanumber
A Free Man
This brave woman speaks from the heart.
As she says, they are being taught the Quran, but not how to understand its evil content.
Children are being turned against their infidel parents.
Are there any countries in the world that are not being invaded by Islam?
Read the comments section.
EDIT:
Is he right when he says that 90% of ordinary Muslims do not go to a Mosque?
Not all Germans were Nazis
I have always thought that those that came 25 years ago were trying to escape the ideology.
If he is right then we should be able to do as he says and close down the Mosques and the moderate Muslims should help us do it.
He is right again when he says that we would have lost the Second World War if the leadership then had been like the leadership of today. The Mounties don’t get their man.
Why is he banned on Facebook?
Is he right about how the Friday prayer starts?
He is a Muslim that other Muslims should look up to.
As she says, they are being taught the Quran, but not how to understand its evil content.
Children are being turned against their infidel parents.
Are there any countries in the world that are not being invaded by Islam?
Read the comments section.
EDIT:
Is he right when he says that 90% of ordinary Muslims do not go to a Mosque?
Not all Germans were Nazis
I have always thought that those that came 25 years ago were trying to escape the ideology.
If he is right then we should be able to do as he says and close down the Mosques and the moderate Muslims should help us do it.
He is right again when he says that we would have lost the Second World War if the leadership then had been like the leadership of today. The Mounties don’t get their man.
Why is he banned on Facebook?
Is he right about how the Friday prayer starts?
He is a Muslim that other Muslims should look up to.
Last edited:
Pops
New Member
Hmm,what exactly made you think that Islam forbids independence thought? :/
Notanumber
A Free Man
Are moderate Muslims the same as practicing Muslims?
How could you be a Muslim before the Quran was revealed?
How could you be a Muslim before the Quran was revealed?
gnostic
The Lost One
No, J2hapydna, I think you are the one who needs to get your facts straight.
If you know anything about the Jewish history, you would know that after a couple of rebellions, one of them was when the Romans sacked Jerusalem and destroyed their temple in 70 CE, and another one in early 2nd century CE, I don't remember the precise date, but c 130s sounds about right.
On both cases, a lot of Jews got "displaced". Some stay, but others were forced to leave their home. Those that have to leave gone as far west as Gaul (France and Belgium) and Hispania (Spanish peninsula), and other as far east as in Babylonia and Persia.
You really think that some Jews didn't settle in Arabian cities or towns?
Some have been living for generations in Medina and Mecca, so it wouldn't surprise me if they knew how to speak Arabic.
Have you ever heard of "cross-culture", J2hapydna?
In Jesus' time many Judaeans and Galileans were at least bilingual (Aramaic and Koine Greek), but a majority of them were poor, so it is hardly surprising can't read and write. So learning come from most listening...and from doing, sort of like that in Muhammad's time. Not every Jews were scholars, which is the same with every civilisations. And if they have to live in countries their ancestors didn't live in, they would have to learn the languages his neighbors would speak.
Jews, who have born in countries that were not their own, have been known to adopt some cultures with whom they lived with, and that would include taking on Greek names, Roman names, Persian names, Arab names.
Are you so provincial, that you can't think a Jew cannot have Arab name, especially if they were born in Arab towns or cities?
You are thinking in 2-dimensional.
C'mon, J2hapydna. Don't just look left-and-right, or back-and front. Look up-and-down.
You have told YmirGF that you have been known to read and accept the bible. If you look at some people like Paul, that's Hellenic name for Saul, and Simon had adopted a Greco-Roman name, Peter.
Have you heard of Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus?
He had both noble and priesthood ancestries from his parents. But he befriended Titus son of emperor Vespasian, when he became a hostage after the temple was destroyed. "Flavius" is a Roman family name. So the question is, why would a Jew have a Roman (family) name?
Judging people by their names as their place of origin, is not going to cut it, if you have study history at all.
In fact, I haven't taken much history subjects myself. In Australian schools, most history subjects would only teach Australian and British history, and even some American history, and they mainly focused 17th century to the modern era, when I was growing up. They were history that I weren't interested in. My main interests are of ancient civilizations (eg Greece, Rome, Egypt, Mesopotamia, the Levant, etc) and the medieval period. And to learn these more interesting history, I have to read translations of these history, in my own time, doing my own researches.
So in the history department, I am mostly self-taught.
Do I know much about Arab history or Islamic history?
Not much as I would like to. But I have read enough ancient and medieval materials to know when I reading propaganda or actual history.
Last edited:
Well that doesn't contradict what I said and also doesn't explain why a Jew would be named the worshipper of Allah, yet the tone of your post suggests you are disagreeing with me.
If they were culturally and religiously now Arabs and were no longer following Rabbinical Judaism then I don't see how that is different than saying the Rabbinical Jews / exilarchs wouldn't have considered them Jews.
Secondly Peter was called the rock or Petra by Jesus. Similarly Flavius means golden hair so perhaps he had golden hair. These are secular terms that Jews could use as names. However, Abd'allah means the servant or worshipper of Allah. In other words this name demonstrates devotion and loyalty to a particular deity, the god and master Allah. It is not a secular name. So I think you are a little confused
Notanumber
A Free Man
Is he right?
gnostic
The Lost One
I didn't say the Jews living in Arabia were Rabbinical Jews, J2hapydna.
The Rabbinical Jews were those living in Judaea, like Tiberia, and those who migrated to Babylonia, rabbis who were responsible for transmitting the oral traditions, like the Oral Torah, into a number of Talmud, the Midrash, Aggadah, and various "rabbinical" texts. They were also responsible for restoring the Jewish scriptures - the Tanakh - into Hebrew Masoretic Text.
Apart from the Greek translation of the bible, which are used by the Greek Orthodox Church, the Masoretic Text became the source for all western translations of the Old Testament (OT) bible. The English translation of the OT, like the King James Version was based mostly Masoretic Text.
My point before in the previous reply to pops about Oral Torah and Talmud. Jews centuries before Jesus' time, kept alive non-written scriptures through sharing memories, like oral traditions. The Jews have strong history of oral traditions, because not every Jews could read and write, so their traditions were passed from teacher to students, from father to sons, through oral traditions.
It doesn't matter to the Jews if they were rabbinical or not, a lot of stuff that weren't down like the Written Torah, were passed down from generation to generation.
The reason why the Rabbinical Jews decided to write down everything they could to preserve oral traditions, particularly the Oral Torah, into the Talmud and other texts, is because they lost their temple in 70 CE, and further rebellion in 130s caused Jews to migrate to other Roman provinces, or move outside of the Roman Empire, like in Babylonia or Arabia.
But the Jews living in Arabian cities, like Mecca and Medina, were not "Rabbinical Jews", but they did continue to preserve their oral traditions. The Banu Qaynapu, Banu Nadir and Banu Qurayza living in Medina, don't have copy of Talmud or other rabbinical texts, because they still do things the old way, through oral transmissions.
Seriously, J2hapydna do you think every Jews back in the time of Muhammad, or earlier like in Jesus' time have a copy of the scriptures or other texts?
Not every Jews were scribes or scholars. Some were soldiers, some were servants, some were farmers, shepherds, fishermen, carpenters or shopkeepers. A lot of these Jews don't have time to make their own copy of the scriptures, so their fathers or teachers would teach them, and they would learn by listening and memorizing.
And beside that making parchments and papyri were expensive, where only royal or noble houses, and of course, the temple could afford to buy or make them.
The rabbis (Rabbinical Jews) back in the 1st and 2nd century CE, were afraid to lose everything, so they began making new copies of the scriptures, rabbinical texts like the Talmud, Mishneh, Midrash would preserved the oral traditions.
You are right that Flavius mean golden, but it doesn't mean Josephus had golden hair; Josephus wasn't born with this name.
He received the name Flavius only when he was a hostage after Jerusalem had fallen and the temple destroyed in 70 CE. Titus' father (Vespasian) was a general serving in Judaea, before he became emperor in 69 CE. Titus took over his father army that besieging Jerusalem.
Titus and Josephus became close friend, and Josephus has been to Rome, when he was adopted and given the name Flavius. It had nothing to do with Josephus' hair color.
Vespanian wasn't the 1st person with the name gens Flavius. His ancestors go back as far as the mid-4th century BCE, but his ancestors were plebs, a non-noble or non-aristocratic family, that only became noble in 104 BCE, when Gaius Flavius Fimbria became the first Flavius to become consul.
Becoming consul was the highest office and honor in the Roman Republic. Winning consulship, automatically turn that family "noble", as well as gaining a seat in the Roman Senate for any ex-consul.
Nice try, J2hapydna, but Josephus wasn't given name Flavius because of his blonde or golden hair; he gained because of the relationship between Titus and Josephus.
Again, you are attaching to much to the name origin, without looking into the Josephus' life history, just as you are ignoring the fact that Jews can adopt customs from foreign lands, like acquiring Arabic names in the land they were living in.
Second the name Allah, is most likely has the same origin as the Hebrew El, which were derived from Canaanite god, also name El, meaning "God". And the Canaanite god El may have originated from the popular Babylonian, Ellil, which is Akkadian name for the Sumerian god Enlil. We know that Mesopotamian religion was very popular, that it spread east into Elam (later Persia), and as far west as Egypt. Canaan or Palestine was often the route between Babylonia and Egypt, so cross-culture is always a possibly and certainly shouldn't be ignored.
It is similar in Mecca. Mecca if often part of trade route between Egypt and kingdom of Saba in the southern coast or Dilmun kingdom in the eastern coast. In the first half of 1st millennium BCE, Mecca was relatively unimportant city; more a village than a city.
And Kaaba was only important in the 5th century CE, the most likely time that it was built. There are no evidences to support that Kaaba existed before Jesus' time. It is certainly not a Bronze Age structure.
The Qur'an and Muhammad claiming that Kaaba was built by Abraham and Ishmael, is nothing more than propaganda and invented story. The story is based only on hearsay.
I find it funny that the Saudis prevent scientists from testing the Kaaba's real age.
Like I said they weren't regular Jews. These guys were engaged in polytheism and gave themselves names such as the worshipper of Meccan gods such as Allah. Now if they plotted with the Meccans then they would share the same fate
