What is wrong with religion?

[fullyveiled muslimah]

So how did Bush get in office if not elected?

I'll take a quick shot in the dark and say that America operates on the facade of democracy, but in reality is a ________________ government. You can fill in the blank yourself because I have my own word to put there.:run:

 

[Nanda]

I'll take a quick shot in the dark and say that America operates on the facade of democracy, but in reality is a ________________ government. You can fill in the blank yourself because I have my own word to put there.:run:

"Republic"

 

[gnostic]

I think i'll blame democrasy which came up with someone like Bush into power and make him act upon it.

That's because, democrasy consists in the beliefs and behavior of those who adopt it.

You can do so if you like.

It has nothing to do with me. Bush is not my president, and the US is not my country. For that matter, Bush is not your leader too, and you lived in Malaysia.

You can also blame democracy if you like. I have never said such government system is perfect. Only someone insane would believe that any form of government to be perfect. Muslims, on the other hand, believe that Islam is perfect, when clearly it is not. Islam is organisation, man-made, and therefore subject to flaws. But you don't believe it is man-made. If so then your god is flawed, since he has made a religion that no two people follow it in the same way.

You are here, and you are generalising yourself. Whenever you bring up the West, you immediately think of Americans, USA and George Bush, and you forget that some of us are not Americans, and if some of us, not all of us pro-Bush. A jab at me, in regarding to Bush doesn't hurt one bit, because I have jabs at Bush himself, and those who supports him.

The thing is not everyone in the US believe in Bush or his policies. The different here is that you, being a more liberal and tolerant Muslim, share the same belief in Islam.

Many of these terrorists don't think you are true believer of Islam, because they believe that if "one Muslim" takes up arms in the name of Islam, then "all Muslims" should unite and also take up arms. That you don't do so, they would consider you and anyone like you as heretics or sympathisers of non-believers and they have the right to kill you.

This is the sort of people you share your religion with.

 

[UnityNow101]

There is nothing wrong with true democracy. The problem is that we, the United States, do not want the people of the middle east to be able to live in a true democratic system. When that happens, such as in Palestine, people come to power which run contrary to our intentions in the middle east. We end up looking like hypocrites in the end. We tell the people that we want to give them freedom and then when they vote someone that we don't like into power, we get our "panties" in a wad and cry foul. What kind of democracy should we uphold. One in which we hand-pick the candidates or one in which the people have true power to vote in who they would like?

 

[MBones]

Your right he didn't win he popular vote. But won in congress. That is the problem in a democratic society you should win on popular votes. That is the whole premise of the democratic system. But I guess those kind of things can be overturned in an election that involves the most powerful businesses in America.

 

[MBones]

islam is man made???? So is all religion. Including Chrisitianity. Religion is by definition man made. Islam is not inferior to any other religion, it is the same. A man made experience to explain the supernatural things that happen to him.

 

[MBones]

You should really study the religion more before you make snyde comments like those. Really Islam is a very good religion, and as good as those others, in fact may be better in it's claims. In point all religions are no longer good for this economy in this world because of the statements like you made.

 

[Nanda]

I feel the need to reiterate; America is not a true Democracy, it's a Republic.

 

[rojse]

From what I understand about the election process in the US, there are two sets of votes. There is the popular vote, and the Electoral College Vote. The first one is merely a count of the votes for each person. The second decides the election, but is based on the voting trends of the first one.

The Electoral College Vote has several factors that can alter the outcome of an election. It does not weigh votes equally, it focuses on larger swing states, and it favours less popular states. Because of this, people who do not win a majority of the popular vote can actually win the election, such as in the case of George Bush. Such an event has occured four times in American voting history.

Here is an article should you wish to get into the details of electoral college votes, and how a less popular candidate can actually win the United States Presidency: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College I got all of my information from here as a check on what I knew.

 

[Smoke]

Just .. amazing. Now everything is dangerous!

Democracy does have inherent dangers. One of the main ones is that the majority can trample on the rights of the minority with impunity. There was nothing undemocratic, for instance, about the forced removal of the Cherokees to Oklahoma. It was morally wrong, but it was something the majority desired.

I still think democracy is the best form of government. But it's foolhardy not to recognize that even the best form of government has its dangers and pitfalls to beware.

Hmmm, then i guess we should eliminate this evil religion called Islam because people are fighting for it. Is this what you mean?

Or reform it. In its present form, it's not a moral religion. And I wasn't just talking about Islam. Nor am I talking about force or coercion. What is desirable is for people to recognize the evils of these belief systems, and to change or abandon them because it's the right thing to do. We've done it with human sacrifice, witch hunting; the governments of the world have recognized that slavery is wrong, even if we can't get people to stop practicing it; women have been emancipated, except in Muslim and tribal societies. It's possible for whole societies to turn away from harmful and immoral beliefs without resorting to violence or persecution.

I think that you believe that earth will be like heaven without these beliefs you just mentioned, am i right?

No, you're completely wrong. However, without those beliefs, the earth would be better than it is now. Eradicating smallpox didn't eliminate all disease, but it was still a good thing.

 

[Smoke]

I feel the need to reiterate; America is not a true Democracy, it's a Republic.

There has never been a purely democratic nation anywhere. Rarely has there ever been a pure monarchy, either. By any reasonable standard, the U.S. is a democracy, even though the president and vice president aren't elected by popular vote. (Sometimes they aren't elected at all; sometimes a pair of lowlifes are able to steal the election with the collusion of state officials and Supreme Court justices.)

The United Kingdom is a democracy, but not a republic.
The People's Republic of China is a republic, but not a democracy.
The United States is both.

 

[McBell]

I feel the need to reiterate; America is not a true Democracy, it's a Republic.

I agree.
If the USA was a true democracy, it would have turned into a theocracy disguised as a democracy a long time ago.

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

I met alot of people who don't believe in God, and when i engage in a discussuin with them about religion, they jump into conclusions saying that religion is the source of evil in the world and they start giving me some examples.

I think that what they saw about what religion's influnce on people did was not quite accurate, because people *used* religion to gain power, money and more land, because human beings found out that religion is the most effective tool in order to control their nation. Nevertheless, just because someone used fire to burn buildings so that doesn't mean fire is no longer a source of light, heat, and feeling warm.

The question which is begging to be answered now is, as we can see that religion "in general" is not the source of evil and human beings just used it in the wrong way, so then, what's wrong with religion?

Quite simply, religion has become merely a 'system of blind beliefs'. A theoretical and dogmatic system of theology, traditions, and exoteric rites, rituals, and prayers. It is merely a pretense of Holiness. There is no KNOWLEDGE of God in religion, merely beliefs.

It is for this reason that so many Masters / Prophets come to Earth in order to reveal the inner Truth to sincere 'seekers'. It is only from such a living Master that the true Gnosis of God can be experienced.

Peace & Love

 

[rojse]

What is wrong with religion is that religion can sidetrack an argument so that it is not even debating the original topic, or even the complex intricacies of that argument, but rather a separate, loosely related idea.

 

[namguy]

I met alot of people who don't believe in God, and when i engage in a discussuin with them about religion, they jump into conclusions saying that religion is the source of evil in the world and they start giving me some examples.

I think that what they saw about what religion's influnce on people did was not quite accurate, because people *used* religion to gain power, money and more land, because human beings found out that religion is the most effective tool in order to control their nation. Nevertheless, just because someone used fire to burn buildings so that doesn't mean fire is no longer a source of light, heat, and feeling warm.

The question which is begging to be answered now is, as we can see that religion "in general" is not the source of evil and human beings just used it in the wrong way, so then, what's wrong with religion?

Religions are based in rules & regulations, faith isn't.

 

[TashaN]

You can do so if you like.

It has nothing to do with me. Bush is not my president, and the US is not my country. For that matter, Bush is not your leader too, and you lived in Malaysia.

You can also blame democracy if you like. I have never said such government system is perfect. Only someone insane would believe that any form of government to be perfect. Muslims, on the other hand, believe that Islam is perfect, when clearly it is not. Islam is organisation, man-made, and therefore subject to flaws. But you don't believe it is man-made. If so then your god is flawed, since he has made a religion that no two people follow it in the same way.

Sorry to disagree with you. God didn't make islamic law so all human beings adopt it in the same excact way 100%, nor he sent Prophet Mohammed to force all human beings to be Muslims. God mentioned clearly in the Quran that IF he wanted for all human beings to be one single nation, he would do it but its his will that we are different and we are free to adopt whatever we think is true. God told us that Islam is good and we would be successful if we followed his law, but if you didn't then no big deal, and you are all free to decide your own way. Don't think for a moment that God mades these law so we follow it as its like robots.

Therefore, your claim is false and you should know more about Islam before judging it.

You are here, and you are generalising yourself. Whenever you bring up the West, you immediately think of Americans, USA and George Bush, and you forget that some of us are not Americans, and if some of us, not all of us pro-Bush. A jab at me, in regarding to Bush doesn't hurt one bit, because I have jabs at Bush himself, and those who supports him.

I know that you are not an american and don't misunderstand me, I simply mentioned Bush and America to show that, its not only about religions, but its about democrasy and many other systems too if it was used by the wrong guy. I never claimed that all the West are like America or Bush and i know better than that. Got what i mean now?

The thing is not everyone in the US believe in Bush or his policies. The different here is that you, being a more liberal and tolerant Muslim, share the same belief in Islam.

Many of these terrorists don't think you are true believer of Islam, because they believe that if "one Muslim" takes up arms in the name of Islam, then "all Muslims" should unite and also take up arms. That you don't do so, they would consider you and anyone like you as heretics or sympathisers of non-believers and they have the right to kill you.

This is the sort of people you share your religion with.

Its normal, you will find like those people everywhere around the world and in many belief systems, and i won't hesitate to agree with you in your complains if they were the majority. You have to look at the majority of any system to know if it works or not.

Believe it or not! we don't live in heaven, and there must be always some misguided people who try to ruin our lives from the time to another and the history is enough for you to consider and read through, in order to get a clear idea of what i'm trying to say in here.

 

[TashaN]

Democracy does have inherent dangers. One of the main ones is that the majority can trample on the rights of the minority with impunity. There was nothing undemocratic, for instance, about the forced removal of the Cherokees to Oklahoma. It was morally wrong, but it was something the majority desired.

I still think democracy is the best form of government. But it's foolhardy not to recognize that even the best form of government has its dangers and pitfalls to beware.

Or reform it. In its present form, it's not a moral religion. And I wasn't just talking about Islam. Nor am I talking about force or coercion. What is desirable is for people to recognize the evils of these belief systems, and to change or abandon them because it's the right thing to do.

So we throw all the laws to the ocean and wait for you to make one for us?

We've done it with human sacrifice, witch hunting; the governments of the world have recognized that slavery is wrong, even if we can't get people to stop practicing it; women have been emancipated, except in Muslim and tribal societies. It's possible for whole societies to turn away from harmful and immoral beliefs without resorting to violence or persecution.

You didn't answer my question. Should we eliminate this evil religion called Islam for the reasons you mentioned before?

No, you're completely wrong. However, without those beliefs, the earth would be better than it is now.

How do you know that?

Do you have a proof to back up this claim?

 

[TashaN]

What is wrong with religion is that religion can sidetrack an argument so that it is not even debating the original topic, or even the complex intricacies of that argument, but rather a separate, loosely related idea.

Religion itself can do all that? wow, how is that?

Religions are based in rules & regulations, faith isn't.

But faith is a crucial part in religion and the most effective part in it as you know.

Quite simply, religion has become merely a 'system of blind beliefs'. A theoretical and dogmatic system of theology, traditions, and exoteric rites, rituals, and prayers. It is merely a pretense of Holiness. There is no KNOWLEDGE of God in religion, merely beliefs.

It is for this reason that so many Masters / Prophets come to Earth in order to reveal the inner Truth to sincere 'seekers'. It is only from such a living Master that the true Gnosis of God can be experienced.

Peace & Love

I don't know why you think there is no knowledge of God in religion simply because the Master/Prophet who taught that knowlwedge is not around.

Any specific reason for why "we" human beings can't follow the same path as those Masters/Prophets instead of depending on them enitrely to spoon-feed us everything?

 

[rojse]

I have not been on many forums before, but it seems to me that longer threads have a habit of getting sidetracked. This thread is a great example - it starts out as a thread that asks what is wrong with religion, and now it has ended up as a debate on the war in Iraq. Yes, there is a connection between the two subjects, but this is not a thread to debate the ethics of the war, although that could be one facet of the debate.

 

[rojse]

Earlier in this thread, in Post #75, I wrote about some of my complaints with religion, and someone else wrote theirs, too. We got up to nine points. I though I would add some more points to my list.

As before these posts are generic - I am not trying to blame one religion in particular, or one set of religions, either, but saying some of the things that I do not like about religion in the general sense.

In no particular order:
10. A lack of falsifiability for religion - there is no way to disprove God, his religious works, or ideas inspired by these religious works
11. A lack of logic for religion
12. A lack of tolerance in religions towards other religious beliefs
13. A lack of accountability in religions - no religion that I am aware of has accepted the consequence of it's past actions or teachings.

Obviously, I would like for anyone who feels that my statements are wrong to say why this is so.