What is wrong with religion?

[gnostic]

Do you mean this one?

Islam is againts killing children , women and old poeple

Yeah. But have you read the whole thing.

He made some justifications for suicide bombings on civilian targets, particularly in Israel. He justified Palestinian terrorists targeting at Israelis on the buses, marketing, restaurants, etc, because these are enemies, regardless if these targets are filled with civilians. He says Islam are against killing women and children, but that doesn't prevent Muslims killing women and children, hitting at soft targets - like those civilian areas.

How can you bomb a civilian area, without killing women and children in buses, markets, etc? The targets are deliberate, for maximum amount of death, to spread terror. Do you seriously think that Hamas really care if they kill Israeli women or children?

You can say Islam doesn't to this or that, but it doesn't prevent Muslims who break the laws or even going against Islamic teaching.

 

[MBones]

Is this opinion based on your experience with one religion or with religions in general?

All religions in general. Although I have found more resistence from one than the other. To elaborate, the Jewish and Islamic experience seems to have more scientific backing than those of Christian beliefs, and for the most part more friendly opposition. But all in all I don't believe that any religion is right for this world, we can see it in the atrocities of today. People are willing to kill other human beings over what they believe in, and that is where I draw the boundry. Religion, or Fiction as I like to call it, is not worth killing another sole over. Period. And anyone who does in the name of faith is wrong..Countless numbers of children, men and women, die every day over conflicts, and those confilcts most certainly have a backing in religion. We are one world, one people, one religion... and that religion is living everyday with kindness to our brothers and sisters of this beautiful and diverse world. Accepting one another for who they are and not listening to the tyrannical leaders that lead our countries. That's it and if we can do it. We can live in peace.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Yeah. But have you read the whole thing.

He made some justifications for suicide bombings on civilian targets, particularly in Israel. He justified Palestinian terrorists targeting at Israelis on the buses, marketing, restaurants, etc, because these are enemies, regardless if these targets are filled with civilians. He says Islam are against killing women and children, but that doesn't prevent Muslims killing women and children, hitting at soft targets - like those civilian areas.

did his justifications come from the Quran and Sunnah, I read through it and did not find any hadith or quranic context to support his claims based on the situation that Muhammed and his followers were in.

How can you bomb a civilian area, without killing women and children in buses, markets, etc? The targets are deliberate, for maximum amount of death, to spread terror. Do you seriously think that Hamas really care if they kill Israeli women or children?

I only care what Allah and his Messenger think or say. Hamas have their issues and Allah will judge them as He will with us all.

You can say Islam doesn't to this or that, but it doesn't prevent Muslims who break the laws or even going against Islamic teaching.

Now look at your statement we can say Islam does this and that, and then it doesn't prevent Muslims from breaking laws etc. Now why are you associating the religion with the actions of some people. People are not allowed to murder yet in the west every 18 minutes 8 murders take place. rape is against the law, however in the west every 7 seconds 2 women are raped.

Not to mention you are forgetting the accountability of our actions. these muslims who break laws, commit injustices, murder, rape and whatever injustices you can think of will be judged by Allah. and they will be punished severely with the worst punishment.

if Islam says you can't do this and you see muslims doing it what is that. That is people breaking the commandments of Allah, so either the muslims will punish them according to our shariah or Allah will punish them in the next eternal life(hereafter). Now the problem lies where there is no government on earth which upholds true sharia so no muslim is punished according to the Islamic standards of justice. there is alot of secular, and western ideas mixed in. so we are in no position to change right now.

Only thing we can do is get better as muslims, uphold the morals, manners and principles which were established and cannot be altered by Muhammed and his followers from the guidance given to them by Allah, the Creator of the Heavens and Earth and the Only Judge on the Day of Judgment. and follow the Quran and hold fast to the sunnah of the Messenger.

What I want you to take is that people do certain things, things they are taught by themselves with the guidance of Allah and that which was instinctively given to them by Allah. Now Allah creating all of us has given a manual to help us and guide us to live peacefully amongst ourselves while at the same time and most importantly worshipping Allah, and obeying the rules and regulations he has given us which will help us pass the test of this life. We all will be graded and will will either pass or fail. There are laws and principles in many things, and religion is one of the founding fathers of instituting laws and principles and since religion bases their laws and principles of Allah. Then likewise because they are from the One who created us, and who has the most rights on us. They have because of how mankind has percieved them held a special status and have been kept. For the true laws of Allah have been tried and tested and have been proven to work in bringing peace, prosperity, morality, and love of God to everyone.

Now people may choose to ignore these things for this is where the free will comes in. For if you are free to choose and you choose wrongly based on your desires, emotions, and arrogance then it is on the idividual. Muslims are given the Quran and Sunnah if they follow it then they are right and successful. If they do not then Allah has told them what will happpen, they will be punished with hellfire. In no way shape or form is a true muslims going to support any person or organisation who does something against the teachings of Allah and His Messenger Muhammed. So when yo mention this group does this and that, and they say this. it doesn't matter what they say. It matters what Islam says. and Islam has formed an opinion which is universal for all those who claim to be muslims to follow concerning all matters.

If Islam says terrorism is wrong and they cannot do that, then it is clear as to who is doing what is Islamic and who is doing something and the person says he is muslims. If they choose to do it then Allah will deal with them. We have to seperate muslims today from Islam and what has been established by the one Allah called the believers.
He called the Messenger and the khalifs, and 3 succeeding generations the believers. that is the deal. They are the believers, they are our role models if we follow them we are correct, if not you can you for yourself who is doing right.

I pray the brothers and sisters who error may Allah guide them and help them see the error of their ways. and may Allah give them patience for they are under stress that none of us can imagine. I pray Allah gives the non muslims understanding to the plight of the people and the circumstances involved and give them the vision to see past the shield of ignorance and misinformation that our government and media put over everyone. And I pray that those who are the ones really responsible for all this that Allah will guide them also and forgive them, but if they reject Allah, His Ayat and His Messenger then may the curse of Allah be upon them and may He punish them in this life and the next.

I as a muslim a follower of Muhammed peace be upon him in no way support any injustice done to any person. May Allah show you and everyone on this forum the beauty of Islam and allow people to acquire and accept the knowledge of what is true Islam so they may be able to seperate Islam and what the Messenger of Allah established for us as our culture. A culture which cannot be altered or addedd to. From the actions of muslims. so that they may be able to sift through the slander and propaganda being perpetuated by the enemies of Islam.

I understand where many of you are coming from in terms of this issue. But people need to understand that I became muslim after 9-11. I thought what many of you think about muslims but when I seperated what muslims or people do, from what the religion says. The answers became clear.

Peace.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

All religions in general. Although I have found more resistence from one than the other. To elaborate, the Jewish and Islamic experience seems to have more scientific backing than those of Christian beliefs, and for the most part more friendly opposition. But all in all I don't believe that any religion is right for this world, we can see it in the atrocities of today. People are willing to kill other human beings over what they believe in, and that is where I draw the boundry. Religion, or Fiction as I like to call it, is not worth killing another sole over. Period. And anyone who does in the name of faith is wrong..Countless numbers of children, men and women, die every day over conflicts, and those confilcts most certainly have a backing in religion. We are one world, one people, one religion... and that religion is living everyday with kindness to our brothers and sisters of this beautiful and diverse world. Accepting one another for who they are and not listening to the tyrannical leaders that lead our countries. That's it and if we can do it. We can live in peace.

but does the religion teach that or is it the actions of people is the question.

do not prosecute Islam because of the actions of a few misguided muslims.

 

[gnostic]

Thanks, Mujahid Muhammad. You have answer alot of things in regarding to the teaching of Islam as opposed to perceived actions of individual Muslims or group of Muslims.

However, you have not cover why The Truth Only would say that it okay for Palestinians to target Israeli civilian targets, such as restaurants, markets, buses, etc, but at the same time says that Muslims don't kill elderly, women and children, when clearly these people would be found in these targets. How can you expect Palestinians targets these sites and expect no causalities of women and children?

Obviously, he see that are times where women and children are acceptable targets because they are enemies - Israeli women and children.

This is contradiction. He made justification of when targets are suitable. The Truth Only is no better than George Bush in speeches of "axis of evil", because Bush had demonised every single Iraqis, Iranians, Afghans, Syrians and North Koreans. The Truth Only have demonised every single Israelis as enemies - which would also include women and children.

Don't tell me that Muslims don't generalise or stereotype people from the West, as the West stereotype Muslims. The Muslims are no different from the West in this aspect. You are doing it now with the silly statistics of how many rapes that happened.

If every 7 seconds women are raped in the West as you say, then the whole women population in the West would have raped in 5-6 years. In 10 years, every single women would have been raped at least twice. Doesn't this sound like exaggeration as statistics?

If you applied this silly statistic in Australia for only 1 year, then 4.4 million women would have been raped. So in a mere 2.4-year, every single female, including the elderly women, under-age child and even baby girls would have been raped.

And your murder statistic is no better. If you applied this (you have said every 18 minute, 8 murders are committed) to Australia for only a single year, 227,840 Australians would have been murdered out of 21 million Australians. This statistical amount of murders in Australia would exceed the sum of all death, which includes natural death, death by disease, accidental death and murders (real figures in the year 2004, 132,500 death in Australia) in a single year by 95,240. The real number of murders in Australia (for 2004) is 293 and (for 2005) 295. Less than 300 murders is no where near your 200,000 murders if we applied your statistics.

Such statistics distort reality, and therefore it distort the truth. You can't apply such statistics in reality.

I don't know the population of the US, but I will let you do the maths for it and see if your silly statistics is not exaggeration.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Thanks, Mujahid Muhammad. You have answer alot of things in regarding to the teaching of Islam as opposed to perceived actions of individual Muslims or group of Muslims.

However, you have not cover why The Truth Only would say that it okay for Palestinians to target Israeli civilian targets, such as restaurants, markets, buses, etc, but at the same time says that Muslims don't kill elderly, women and children, when clearly these people would be found in these targets. How can you expect Palestinians targets these sites and expect no causalities of women and children?

Unfortunately, this is exactly what I am talking about. the rules of Jihad are clear laid down by the Messenger of Islam during the battle of badr in the 13th year. We cannot harm non enemy combatants, not the slave who works the field, no women or children, can't burn down trees, or slaughter animals. unless these things are fighting you and oppressing you. Meaning if a women is in the army of the enemy her blood is halal.

Now when you ask the question why does the truth only say this and that. Who is this person. I do not ever recall the Messenger of Allah mentioning him as being an authority in our religion. Nor did Allah ever mention him. they are entitled to their opinion, but only when their opinion is in line with the Quran and the sunnah is it excepted and adhered to. Otherwise this person is speaking of his own, and his words are not supported by Islam. So as the Messenger of Allah said if anyone brings you something other then what I have brought you ie. the Quran and the Sunnah, throw it against the wall.

So you and all non muslims should do the same in terms of understanding the religion. Listen to what the Messenger said, he is telling you what Islam is. It is what has been established by the Allah and His Messenger 1400 years ago. It cannot and has not ever changed in its recitation. And was memorized by Muhammed and his sahaba and millions upon millions after them.

Obviously, he see that are times where women and children are acceptable targets because they are enemies - Israeli women and children.

there may be circumstances where it may happen like if you attack in the dark, and you did not see but going into a public place, not a military target like a base or plattoon, but a public place like the market and just kill everyone. When did the Messenger of Allah or his companions do that, I will answer for you if you do not know. Never. So what are they doing if they do it. something other then Islam, so as such cannot be associated with Islam or true muslims who are the practictioner.

Read my signature, Another statement by the Messenger and all these statements are laws which cannot be argued or changed. For the Messenger of Allah said if anyone says I said something I did not say his seat is waiting for him in the Hellfire.

This is contradiction. He made justification of when targets are suitable. The Truth Only is no better than George Bush in speeches of "axis of evil", because Bush had demonised every single Iraqis, Iranians, Afghans, Syrians and North Koreans. The Truth Only have demonised every single Israelis as enemies - which would also include women and children.

As I said I do not know the person nor the extent of his knowledge in fiqh but any of these issues are for the scholars of our religion, and for some reason the ulama of islam are being silenced by the oppressive arab governments. they are not given a voice or a huge political stage to speak on these issues.

Don't tell me that Muslims don't generalise or stereotype people from the West, as the West stereotype Muslims. The Muslims are no different from the West in this aspect. You are doing it now with the silly statistics of how many rapes that happened.

I am not generalized people when I am stating a statistic of events that take place in the west. I did not say all westerners are rapists or murderers. i said that statistically

If every 7 seconds women are raped in the West as you say, then the whole women population in the West would have raped in 5-6 years. In 10 years, every single women would have been raped at least twice. Doesn't this sound like exaggeration as statistics?

You are forgetting how many people are born every year who happen to be women. And since the number of women and moral depravation is increasing it is not going to diminish. Besides these are statistics put forward by Western Istitutions not the muslims. This is what we in the west are saying about ourselves in terms of the statistical injustices that are taking place.

If you applied this silly statistic in Australia for only 1 year, then 4.4 million women would have been raped. So in a mere 2.4-year, every single female, including the elderly women, under-age child and even baby girls would have been raped.

And your murder statistic is no better. If you applied this (you have said every 18 minute, 8 murders are committed) to Australia for only a single year, 227,840 Australians would have been murdered out of 21 million Australians. This statistical amount of murders in Australia would exceed the sum of all death, which includes natural death, death by disease, accidental death and murders (real figures in the year 2004, 132,500 death in Australia) in a single year by 95,240. The real number of murders in Australia (for 2004) is 293 and (for 2005) 295. Less than 300 murders is no where near your 200,000 murders if we applied your statistics.

Such statistics distort reality, and therefore it distort the truth. You can't apply such statistics in reality.

As I said the west does not just make up the Australia or just the US or just Europe etc. this is all together.

I don't know the population of the US, but I will let you do the maths for it and see if your silly statistics is not exaggeration.

Say what you want I live in the US and grew up in an area where someone was murdered every single day. I live in an area where it was a fact that in one month we had 5 serial rapists. Go to the police station ask them how many rapes are reported a year. I said the one that are reported.

Maybe you never grew up in the ghetto, may you never knew people who have killed or raped. Believe me it happens more then you realize and more then you are aware.

Besides even if the statistics were off by 30% it is still too much. you cannot honestly tell me that the morality of the west is increasing. Study the statistics from the western funded institutions and let them tell you what they see according to the number of reports they are given. Because that is what a statistic is they take how many people in the area and how many of the crimes were committed in this time period and they give you the statistic.

But anyways my statistics were not something to be argued it was to illustrate because our original discussion was based on your statement and I quote that

"You can say that Islam doesn't to this or that, but it doesn't prevent Muslims who break the laws or even go against Islamic teachings"

Now the reason I said the statistics was to illustrate that in the west we have laws forbidding people from doing things like murder,rape etc. And the statistics were to show that these things happen, more then they should. Yet it still goes on because people have free will. this was not something for us to debate on. The issue is not the statistics.

We was discussing the actions of Muslims in relation to the teachings of Islam and from your statement I took from it that you felt that Islam does not prevent muslims from breaking the civil laws and going back on Islamic teachings. And my point was that we have laws in the West, East, South and Islam. People break them why? They have free will which gives them the ability to say yes or no to whatever action they are doing.

So if you really feel the need to go off topic and debate the statistics, please debate them with those who came up with them. For I am only relaying what Western institutions paid for by you and I, and everyone else says. For our government wrote them a check to find out these types of statistics. So be mad at them and not me for relaying what our western institutions, which are funded by our government, from our tax dollars, to tell our government and its people what the statistics of certain things that take place in our country.

Peace.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Some are TOO infuelential in religion and this is forcing. Human nature is to protest and to act against. This has resulted in wars but religion has generated good morals too. Reinforcd natural human behaviour, goodness

 

[gnostic]

Besides even if the statistics were off by 30% it is still too much. you cannot honestly tell me that the morality of the west is increasing.

Your statistics of murders, if applies to Australia, is 772 times greater than actual figure. That's not a mere 30%.

As I said the west does not just make up the Australia or just the US or just Europe etc. this is all together.

Well, you have given me a single real figure to work with, Mujahid Muhammad. All you have give me is estimate, and they are not helpful, because they distort and exaggerate real figures.

If you provide me the sources of your "statistics" in the "West" about the number of rape victims and murder victims, then I will do the maths to show how ridiculous your statistics is.

Provide me with the "sources" that provide "real figures", and not some ridiculous "17 seconds in 2" or "every 18 minutes in 8" figures.

You are forgetting how many people are born every year who happen to be women.

The increase in birth rate is marginal at best, because couples are having smaller family. We are passed the baby-boomer era, in case you have forgotten.

And since the number of women and moral depravation is increasing it is not going to diminish.

I don't like this statement, whatsoever. You seemed to be linking the increase in women population with the increase in moral depravation.

The majority of the crimes, particularly the worse atrocities, are committed by men, and yet you have typically turn it around and blame women for men's misdeeds. It seem typical that all Abrahamic religions to blame the world's woes upon women. You are no different from Christians. No wonder why Islam and Christianity are askew.

 

[gnostic]

Oops. I've got the figure wrong. :sorry1:

If every 7 seconds women are raped in the West as you say, then the whole women population in the West would have raped in 5-6 years. In 10 years, every single women would have been raped at least twice. Doesn't this sound like exaggeration as statistics?

If you applied this silly statistic in Australia for only 1 year, then 4.4 million women would have been raped. So in a mere 2.4-year, every single female, including the elderly women, under-age child and even baby girls would have been raped.

I am still right about the exaggeration. My calculation is for "every 7 seconds a woman is being raped". If 2 women are being raped every 7 seconds, then the recalculation would make it worse than my original calculation of 4.4 million women being raped each year; it would be close to 9 million per year in Australia.

My calculation for the number of murders are correct.

See how ridiculous such statistics are?

 

[MBones]

You are right in what you say but wrong in the fact that noone has the right to take someone's life in the name of anything. Religion is wrong... Period.... there are so many religions today that it would make your head spin, and yet each one of these religions think that they are right and can convert, differ, mingle, kill, and take your right to perform your religiion at any time, in the name of their religiion. When are we all going to wake up.... WAKE UP! We are all one people and no religion will unite us all, that is until we realize that NO religion is right and we need to be thinking for ourselves....

 

[MBones]

Exactly, you proved my point! All of the absurd things and arguments, those to fail to realize that we are all one people and you can have your fights, but they will not end well with people who are ignorant.

 

[MBones]

Mujahid Muhammad,

Yes my friend, I want to talk to you. Religion as you know it, is right in what it tells you... But what about the rest of breathing people in this world, they all have religions which they follow and yes God has told them to follow it just as he has told you to follow yours. Don't you see a flaw in that? How are there soo many religions in this world? That God has never said, Yes you are right? And if you have your are not in a stable state of mind. And I say that to all of our christian people. The fact is God or Allah, has no bearing on this world's democratic, or communistic government. He or she wouldnt care the least. The problem is that we are all killing eachother over stupid non=existent things. WE need to start thinking about ourselves and build a world where our kids can live in peace, apat from us ******** that thought it best to wage a world war for religion. No more fairy tales, no more religion, lets try talking to eachother over civilized things like family. We all have family. Lets start at that. Try a turn at evloution.. IT has some merit...

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Your statistics of murders, if applies to Australia, is 772 times greater than actual figure. That's not a mere 30%.


Well, you have given me a single real figure to work with, Mujahid Muhammad. All you have give me is estimate, and they are not helpful, because they distort and exaggerate real figures.

Still on the statistics huh, so we are not discussing them but if you want to debate them start another forum for it.

If you provide me the sources of your "statistics" in the "West" about the number of rape victims and murder victims, then I will do the maths to show how ridiculous your statistics is.

Google search it there are several organizations funded by our government. World health Organization, Law Enforcement, bureau of Statistics and justice etc. There are hundreds, pick one any one. go look at any of their statistics and this is what is reported based on what has been reported.

The increase in birth rate is marginal at best, because couples are having smaller family. We are passed the baby-boomer era, in case you have forgotten.

I did not say the birth rate was increasing I said the number of women per birth is increasing. Even though we are not discussing the statistics, we were discussing the permissibility of what Islam allows and what muslims do and the understanding that even though any law whether in Islam or in Democracy, commi whatever it is the individuals right to either obey the law or accept it. But do not attack Islam as I said you are looking at the statistics from the wrong context you for whatever reason want to discuss them. Go get the statistics yourself.

I don't like this statement, whatsoever. You seemed to be linking the increase in women population with the increase in moral depravation.

The majority of the crimes, particularly the worse atrocities, are committed by men, and yet you have typically turn it around and blame women for men's misdeeds.

I did not say ti is because of women that this problem is going to increase but because the number of women are increasing and because most men are dogs and imoral and seem to have as late been praying on innocent women and children much more so then in the past. THe number of crimes against women and those who are weaker then men will naturally increase because there are more of them in ration then before. You are crazy if you think I am saying women are the cause of moral depravation. It is the lack of Islam in the world which is causing it. And when I say Islam I am talking about what the messenger brought.

I teach self defense to women because it is statistics like these that keep people coming.

It seem typical that all Abrahamic religions to blame the world's woes upon women. You are no different from Christians. No wonder why Islam and Christianity are askew.

Autho Billah, you are truly misguided and putting words in peoples mouth. did I say in my statement that women are the cause of moral depravity. Please show me where this was stated.

I and any other muslim who follows true Islam cannot blame women for anything that me as an individual or you or anyone does. that is the most ignorant and delusional statement I have ever heard. To even assume that or to state that is what I meant automatically without even asking shows your bias towards me and Islam. Islam does not teach that. Where in Islam does it teach that women are to blame for any of the faults of human beings. Where have I ever said women are the cause of moral depravity. Or just Give me one ayat or one hadith stating that Islam says women are the cause of moral depravity. Give me a verse. No you will find if you were to ever read the Quran with the correct context, the context of the one who was given the guidance ie. Muhammed you will find that it is generally the hearts of people that cause this. it is their desires and their arrogance and rejection of the commands of Allah and his Messenger which causes moral depravity. People think they are free to do just whatever and believe whatever they want to based on their perception regardless if it is based off of something absolute, true, and infallible or if it is just something as ridiculous as saying the moon is made of cheese.

the number of women and moral depravity are increasing, two seperate thingsn are mentioned here. I did not say the number of women which cause moral depravity are increasing. The said the number of women are increasing(in ratio to men) and the amont of moral depravity is increasing. You understand English right probably better then me so why do you not recognize what kind of statement it is.

If you misunderstood I am sorry but don't throw stones automatically or lash out for I am not seeing where you got that is what i meant at all.
And if you want to debate the statistics start another forum we were discussing the relevance of law obiding in relation to free will.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Mujahid Muhammad,

Yes my friend, I want to talk to you. Religion as you know it, is right in what it tells you... But what about the rest of breathing people in this world, they all have religions which they follow and yes God has told them to follow it just as he has told you to follow yours.

Well our religion teaches there is only one God and that is Allah and He is the only one to be worshipped for every other god is something man created with his own hands and ideas.

So if they say it is from God, they need to bring me what they have ie. all their religious evidence that it is in fact from God. and if it is there is some criterion that go along with that. And this is something that must be established.

Don't you see a flaw in that?

Flaw in what? There only being one God.

How are there soo many religions in this world?

Well there are many different kinds of people all with different perceptions and free will. so since they can think whatever they want you will have some who disagree. It is the same in anything not just religion look at science. The world and the Catholic church disagreed with Galileo about the world being round. But as the old cliche goes, I know people who saw elvis in the mall you gonna believe that also.

People can say what they want and believe what they want, that is the whole idea behind free will. But the answer to the question of what is the purpose the true purpose of existence, our existence will give you a better take on your question.

That God has never said, Yes you are right? And if you have your are not in a stable state of mind. And I say that to all of our christian people. The fact is God or Allah, has no bearing on this world's democratic, or communistic government.

But see Allah has already given us the system and the criterion for us to govern ourselves. For Islam is our government. Allah wants His Rule, His relgion, His religion or way of Life to reign supreme on His creation and it will whether those who accept it not like, for no one can stop the will of Allah, for He is the Ruler, Preserver, Sustainer,of all that Exists.

He or she wouldnt care the least. The problem is that we are all killing eachother over stupid non=existent things. WE need to start thinking about ourselves and build a world where our kids can live in peace, apat from us ******** that thought it best to wage a world war for religion. No more fairy tales, no more religion, lets try talking to eachother over civilized things like family. We all have family. Lets start at that. Try a turn at evloution.. IT has some merit...

What do you really know about Islam? Do you even know what it teaches about family.

Learn about it from those who have the knowledge maybe it will help insha Allah for i am sensing you do not have sufficient knowledge of Islam to make statements like that regarding it. Not saying that is bad it is just the norm for most non muslims and in many cases muslims themselves.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

You are right in what you say but wrong in the fact that noone has the right to take someone's life in the name of anything. Religion is wrong... Period.... there are so many religions today that it would make your head spin, and yet each one of these religions think that they are right and can convert, differ, mingle, kill, and take your right to perform your religiion at any time, in the name of their religiion. When are we all going to wake up.... WAKE UP! We are all one people and no religion will unite us all, that is until we realize that NO religion is right and we need to be thinking for ourselves....

No, all of them are right, they all lead to god the very person that a part of the world doensetn belive in. If you dont belive in it then that will only lead to your own downfall.

 

[Peace4all]

Mujahid Muhammad,

Yes my friend, I want to talk to you. Religion as you know it, is right in what it tells you... But what about the rest of breathing people in this world, they all have religions which they follow and yes God has told them to follow it just as he has told you to follow yours. Don't you see a flaw in that? How are there soo many religions in this world? That God has never said, Yes you are right? And if you have your are not in a stable state of mind. And I say that to all of our christian people. The fact is God or Allah, has no bearing on this world's democratic, or communistic government. He or she wouldnt care the least. The problem is that we are all killing eachother over stupid non=existent things. WE need to start thinking about ourselves and build a world where our kids can live in peace, apat from us ******** that thought it best to wage a world war for religion. No more fairy tales, no more religion, lets try talking to eachother over civilized things like family. We all have family. Lets start at that. Try a turn at evloution.. IT has some merit...

The problem is with people like you M Bones. There will always be different opinions we can't just "put aside" all our beliefs and believe in evolution. If we want to ever have peace we just need to respect other differences. You might not think that there is a god, but Mujahad Muhamad might. So instead of calling the belief in god "stupid" and "non-existent" just respect his belief my friend. That is the first step towards peace. ​

 

[Fluffy]

There is nothing wrong with religion. The reason why such comments are heard is due to a mixture of imperfect non-theists and imperfect theists and that is the same reason why similarly negative comments are made towards secular belief systems.

There are plenty of criticisms to be made about religion but none of them are to do with its central identity, merely its various incarnations. I think your fire metaphor is a good one but I would point out that whilst generalisations about the dangers of fire are accurate, it is impossible to generalise religion without committing gross errors. Religion is simply too varied.

If a person is ranting about the "evil of religion" then just wait till they calm down.More often than not, they will introduce a thousand exceptions to their accusations as they realise they are simply ranting about a small group of followers of a single religion.

Heya MBones,
I think that your goal of a peaceful world is an admirable one. Unfortunately, I don't think that you will achieve it if you attribute violence to religion. In almost every case of religious violence (major conflicts at least), the cause of violence is not religion at all but a vast array of other factors. Do you really believe that religion contributes at all to why people commit such terrible acts? Religion is an easy scapegoat but anybody who has worked closely with any religious conflict knows that they are caused by a huge variety of factors, none of which are religious.

To blame religion is not just to make an intellectual error. It is to damn the people in those conflicts further because the real reasons why they are fighting won't be resolved.

 

[Smoke]

If we want to ever have peace we just need to respect other differences.

That's what's wrong with the Abrahamic religions. They find it impossible to respect differences. Buddhists or Shintoists don't care what religion you belong to; Hindus and pagans don't care what God you serve, but in the Abrahamic religions, except for the very most liberal fringes, everyone believes that his way of believing is pleasing to God and that all others are offensive to God. In such a situation, respect for the beliefs and practices of others is impossible. Toleration is possible, but rarely practiced.

Genocide was invented by the worshipers of the Hebrew God and is still a positive commandment (though not really applicable) in Judaism. Christians felt no qualms about exterminating most of the population of North America in the service of their God, and it was nice Lutheran and Catholic family men, brought up to think of Jews as "other" and as Christ-killers, who ran the gas chambers in Nazi concentration camps. Islam has always had a policy of forcible conversion or extermination of the most vulnerable religions, and of persecution of the "People of the Book." The much vaunted "tolerance" of Islam -- under which the People of the Book were enslaved in droves and those who remained free were subject to special taxes, endured stringent restrictions on their religious practices, businesses and personal lives, and often had their children forcibly taken from them -- only seems like tolerance in contrast to the horrors of late medieval Roman Catholicism. Most of the terrorism in the world today is carried out by Muslim fundamentalists, and most of the violence in Iraq presently is between Sunnis and Shias. The most fervent supporters of the U.S.'s unprovoked invasion of Iraq have been American Evangelical Christians.

Given the human propensity for fear, hatred, and violence, all this slaughter is the inevitable result of believing that you and yours are the Sons of Light and all others are the Sons of Darkness. It doesn't take religion for dogmatic faith to have that tragic result: Look at the horrors carried out by dogmatic Marxists. But when a religion or philosophy has that kind of dogmatic approach, when that kind of us-and-them thinking is so deeply a part of a religion, it necessarily becomes a force for evil.

Not all religion is necessarily evil, not even all Abrahamic religion. Bahá'ís and Sufis, and liberal Christians and Jews, manage to respect the beliefs of others. They're all considered apostates and unbelievers by the more traditional followers of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, though, and the unreformed and dogmatic forms of those religions are irretrievably violent, hateful, and intolerant. The true believer cannot respect that which he believes his God hates.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

That's what's wrong with the Abrahamic religions. They find it impossible to respect differences.

No they don't.

Toleration is possible, but rarely practiced.

There are millions of muslims, fundies might I add, that live in America who do not condemn every other religion or way of life. So toleration is more than rare.

Islam has always had a policy of forcible conversion or extermination of the most vulnerable religions, and of persecution of the "People of the Book." The much vaunted "tolerance" of Islam -- under which the People of the Book were enslaved in droves and those who remained free were subject to special taxes, endured stringent restrictions on their religious practices, businesses and personal lives, and often had their children forcibly taken from them

And ISLAM does not condone enslaving people, forcibly converting people and all the other stuff you listed. Like I said there are millions of fundamentalist muslims in America, and if Islam taught that stuff you best believe we'd be doing it today, and being in America wouldn't stop us. When you use words like ALWAYS, that indicates that we always have and always will do _________. When actually that's not true. If we muslims were as bad as this by default, we would always do it everywhere we went.

and the unreformed and dogmatic forms of those religions are irretrievably violent, hateful, and intolerant.

I would be considered an unreformed, or fundamentalist follower of Islam. I am neither hateful, nor violent, nor intolerant. I can't speak for all the christians and jews or whatever, but I know they are not all like that. If what you say is true then the whole world is up the creek without a paddle my man. Look, how many of the worlds population consists of a christian, jew, or muslim? If half of each group were as hateful and ready to kill as you seem to think, no one would be safe. Each group would be killing people right today and who could really stop us? I am willing to bet you have encountered or known fundie christians with strong beliefs that would never kill someone. How many fundie muslims have you been around or encountered to know for a fact that we would forcibly convert you, or try to, or perhaps take over your neighborhood? Or that we would not respect you and your beliefs contrary as they may be to ours? Do you got some numbers on how often muslims all over are guilty of just killing people who don't convert?

 

[Smoke]

Like I said there are millions of fundamentalist muslims in America, and if Islam taught that stuff you best believe we'd be doing it today, and being in America wouldn't stop us.

Religious fundamentalists generally believe in toleration when they're in the minority; they're only dangerous when they have political power.

If half of each group were as hateful and ready to kill as you seem to think, no one would be safe.

Between Bush and his Christians and bin Laden and his Muslims, nobody is safe.

Each group would be killing people right today and who could really stop us?

They are, and we've all seen the killing in recent years, from Darfur to Indonesia, from Palestine to Afghanistan, from Iraq to Serbia to the streets and subways of New York, London, and Madrid.