What Is Wrong With Those Leftists Who Support Islam?

[Kirran]

I'm not so sure it's that simple. Of course, it's easy to blame the leader or political party, but the people within a country also bear some collective responsibility for how their governments turn out. Especially in countries where leaders are chosen democratically.

Yeah, it's certainly worth considering. Although publics are often manipulated.

Doesn't apply to KSA, which we were discussing.

 

[Stevicus]

When I say leftists I mean, SJW types and super far lefties socially.

Why support an ideology which is literally against everything you stand for and would execute you if it had its way?

Right?

Do they actually support "Islam" or the basic concept of religious freedom, which is something that most Westerners have supported for centuries?

One problem for the left is that they became ideologically compromised and inconsistent. They embraced a philosophy of anti-colonialism, anti-imperialism, anti-nationalism which seemed quite noble and pure, although in the process, they also embraced various national liberation movements and other such ideals which had subtly embraced some elements of nationalism.

I think that's a larger problem that I see across the board whenever these kinds of issues come up. We seem to have trouble deciding who is the "enemy" and which "ideology" we actually oppose. It's not something that the "SJWs" have a monopoly on. Our own government has continued to support oppressive Muslim governments, such as our cozy relationship with the Saudi government and the other little sheikdoms in the region. We installed and propped up oppressive, brutal dictatorships all over the world while claiming to be standing up for world freedom and democracy. How screwed up is that?

I think that's the problem we're facing today. There seems to be disagreement over what it is we're actually opposing here. Is "Islam" the enemy here? Or is it more a matter of dealing with a resurgence of nationalism and tribalism in certain parts of the world? They're fighting each other as much as they're fighting the West. So, it's not really a question of "supporting Islam," since the whole thing is rather complicated.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What about the feminist idea that women shouldn't be made to take responsibility for mens' desires and actions? The sad fact is Muslim societies today justify legally or socially mandated veiling of women by objectifying women and telling them they incite lust in men if they dress certain ways. Veils are a device of patriarchal oppression, their justifications are body-shaming & ****-shaming. The fact that feminists seem willing to throw Muslim women who are pressured or forced to wear such clothing under the bus to protect the rights of Muslim women who have the luxury of being able to choose to veil is an example of modern feminism accentuating privilege.




But not the women who are forced or pressured to veil, sadly. Only the privileged Muslim women who have the luxury of making the free choice to veil.




Which doesn't mean much if the feminist movement doesn't do its part in dismantling Islamic patriarchy. Oppression of women doesn't become okay if they're non-white, after all. But to point this out sees people labelled as cultural imperialists.



Unless you're being forced to veil yourself; then we won't do a thing because that would be 'Islamophobic'.




Blasphemy laws in the land of what is now Pakistan were established in 1860 when Britain still ruled India. Pakistan inherited these laws after Partition and is currently trying to expand the scope of their domain.

It seems like you're operating from a number of assumptions that I don't agree with. Even if it apparently perplexes you, the feminists I know are working for the rights of Muslim women both in the West and in Muslim majority countries.

 

[Stevicus]

Yeah, it's certainly worth considering. Although publics are often manipulated.

True, although that's the responsibility that comes with living in a democracy. As members of the voting public, it's our responsibility to keep ourselves informed and aware of what's going on, so as to avoid that kind of manipulation.

Doesn't apply to KSA, which we were discussing.

True, although their government is backed by ours, so that creates an extra complication.

 

[Kirran]

True, although that's the responsibility that comes with living in a democracy. As members of the voting public, it's our responsibility to keep ourselves informed and aware of what's going on, so as to avoid that kind of manipulation.

Well I think liberal democracy is an insufficiently democratic system.

True, although their government is backed by ours, so that creates an extra complication.

What sovietchild was saying was that the Saudi public were responsible for everything done by their government.

 

[Shad]

It seems like you're operating from a number of assumptions that I don't agree with. Even if it apparently perplexes you, the feminists I know are working for the rights of Muslim women both in the West and in Muslim majority countries.

Take for example Linda Sarsour that spoke at the Women's March but tweets about how great KSA is with Sharia. She is blasting America about it's non-issues of Women's Rights compared to the nation she boasts about on Twitter. This is followed by the mindless cheering of those that know no better. Women that actually fight for the rights of women in those nations such as Maryam Namazie are no where to be seen in the media light as they do not follow the party line. More so pro-choice women groups were rejected from the Women's March as they apparently are not women. There is a clear divide between the media feminist and everyday ones. I believe he is focusing on those within the media that follow a strict ideaology that include more than issues women face

 

[Stevicus]

Well I think liberal democracy is an insufficiently democratic system.

It does have its shortcomings, to be sure. But as a whole, the people do have the power to change it into whatever they wish. But if not enough people are willing to use that power wisely, then we get what we deserve.

What sovietchild was saying was that the Saudi public were responsible for everything done by their government.

I don't agree that they're responsible for everything their government does. And again, the will of the people may be somewhat skewed due to that government's ties with the US government and the backing of the US military. That throws it out of balance, at least in terms of countries having sovereignty and self-determination. But then again, Iran overthrew their US-backed dictator, and so did Cuba, so at least it is possible for the public in a given country to rise up and change their government, even if it's an oppressive, tyrannical regime.

 

[icehorse]

It seems like you're operating from a number of assumptions that I don't agree with. Even if it apparently perplexes you, the feminists I know are working for the rights of Muslim women both in the West and in Muslim majority countries.

Can you spell out the assumptions you don't agree with?

 

[Sakeenah]

Any discrimination they have to deal with is self-inflicted.

So you think it's normal to discrimimate against women for what they wear?

 

[Notanumber]

So you think it's normal to discrimimate against women for what they wear?

This was a true expression of freedom.

Syrian women rip off strict Islamic robes and headscarves after escaping ISIS | Daily Mail Online