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What is your best evidence for a god?

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
It wasn't an opinion. If you think you can actually defend what you said, for example, that people (other than theists) think life came from nothing, then stop getting all huffy and do so.... Or not, as you wish... :)

Well, where do you think the universe came from if you think that? Or what do you think, the universe is?
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
It wasn't an opinion. If you think you can actually defend what you said, for example, that people (other than theists) think life came from nothing, then stop getting all huffy and do so.... Or not, as you wish... :)
it was an observation, what is there to defend, that is how it appears to be.....if others have a problem with that observation that is their issue....have a nice day:)
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Well, where do you think the universe came from if you think that?

How did we get from life to the universe? No matter. I don't know, but the relativistic view would suggest it you are asking the wrong question. Time is internal to the universe (space-time manifold), so thinking it (the whole manifold) came into being would be nonsensical.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Evolution also provides a route functional complex systems.

No, sorry. You’re just repeating what you’ve heard, not what you know. Evolution provides nothing of the sort....
To @TagliatelliMonster , also;

“The emergence of qualitatively distinct new structures or patterns (e.g., turtle shells, beetle horns, butterfly color patterns, plant flowers) is one of the most fascinating aspects of organismal evolution. How such novel, complex traits have originated and evolved remains one of the most important yet challenging problems of evolutionary biology. It is widely assumed that novel structures or patterns arise by co-option or rewiring of pre-existing developmental programs. Numerous empirical studies in the past two decades have provided correlational evidence supporting this premise. However, we still know virtually nothing about the specific genetic changes that trigger such co-option or developmental rewiring, how the genetic changes translate to novel structures or patterns (i.e., the developmental pre-settings required to produce the novel phenotype), and how the novel phenotypes rise in frequency in natural habitats (i.e., the evolutionary process).

Genetics, Development, and Evolution of Phenotypic Novelty | Yuan Laboratory: Genetics, Development, and Evolution

Now, this is candid and genuine science.

But what you two are promoting as fact, is only supposition.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
No, sorry. You’re just repeating what you’ve heard, not what you know.

Ask for your money back from that mind-reading course.

Now, this is candid and genuine science.

I don't think is says what you think it does. There is no question here about then general principle of evolution producing complexity or 'design' - which is actually a very simple. What's it's saying we don't know about is "specific genetic changes".

It's also interesting where you ended the quote, which continues thus:

"The major obstacles for the advancement of this field are twofold: (i) Morphological novelties are often investigated long after their emergence, making it difficult to elucidate the causal factors that drove the initial evolutionary transitions; (ii) Most organisms with novel phenotypes are not particularly amenable to rigorous experimental investigations. To overcome these obstacles we need systems where the novel trait has evolved recently and the organism is amenable to genetic and developmental manipulations as well as evolutionary analyses or/and ecological interrogations. This project employs exactly such a system in the wildflower genus Mimulus (monkeyflowers) and applies it to answer those fundamental questions about the origin and evolution of morphological novelty." [emphasis added].​
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Ask for your money back from that mind-reading course.



I don't think is says what you think it does. There is no question here about then general principle of evolution producing complexity or 'design' - which is actually a very simple. What's it's saying we don't know about is "specific genetic changes".

It's also interesting where you ended the quote, which continues thus:

"The major obstacles for the advancement of this field are twofold: (i) Morphological novelties are often investigated long after their emergence, making it difficult to elucidate the causal factors that drove the initial evolutionary transitions; (ii) Most organisms with novel phenotypes are not particularly amenable to rigorous experimental investigations. To overcome these obstacles we need systems where the novel trait has evolved recently and the organism is amenable to genetic and developmental manipulations as well as evolutionary analyses or/and ecological interrogations. This project employs exactly such a system in the wildflower genus Mimulus (monkeyflowers) and applies it to answer those fundamental questions about the origin and evolution of morphological novelty." [emphasis added].​
You know, ignoring the facts, isn’t ignorance...it’s another word.

As the part you quoted says, there are “major obstacles.”
It just supports my point.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
You know, ignoring the facts, isn’t ignorance...it’s another word.

As the part you quoted says, there are “major obstacles.”
It just supports my point.

Obstacles to establishing "specific genetic details" (as I already pointed out was the problem from your first quote). This is a typical creationist tactic, to latch on to some debate about detail and pretend that it is a problem with the whole principle of evolution.

The idea that evolution by natural selection can produce diversity and complexity is entirely uncontroversial outside of people with a superstitious, religious vested interest (and even some of those admit they doubt it despite the evidence: The truth about evolution). It really is. The principle itself is simple and its explanatory power incredible. There is an large amount of subtlety and detail to unravel and debates and mysteries aplenty within those details but the principle itself is not in any serious doubt.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
What does that have to do with anything I said.
Why do you create a strawman about complexity, whenever design comes into your focus?

Is it because you find the evidence for design problematic to your position?
What straw man? Well, if I had the power to design the brain of a rodent, I would have made it look more like that circuit, and not that horrible mess. So, that terribly looking bloody cobweb of nerves looks more like the result of some naturalistic processes, and not of an orderly engineer. But this is not my main point.

No, i am wondering whether we could conclude that the mind of the designed is designed, too.

if not, why not?

after all, assuming we are designed, the only evidence we have of what characterizes design comes from other designs. So, what makes you think that whomever designed us, assuming we are designed, is not designed, too?

ciao

- viole
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
No, i am wondering whether we could conclude that the mind of the designed is designed, too.

if not, why not?

after all, assuming we are designed, the only evidence we have of what characterizes design comes from other designs. So, what makes you think that whomever designed us, assuming we are designed, is not designed, too?

ciao

- viole

Well, that is infinite regress. That is an old one as per Agrippa's Trilemma.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Obstacles to establishing "specific genetic details" (as I already pointed out was the problem from your first quote). This is a typical creationist tactic, to latch on to some debate about detail and pretend that it is a problem with the whole principle of evolution.

The idea that evolution by natural selection can produce diversity and complexity is entirely uncontroversial outside of people with a superstitious, religious vested interest (and even some of those admit they doubt it despite the evidence: The truth about evolution). It really is. The principle itself is simple and its explanatory power incredible. There is an large amount of subtlety and detail to unravel and debates and mysteries aplenty within those details but the principle itself is not in any serious doubt.
“...some debate about detail”....
Lol.

Did I say I denied the “whole principle of evolution”?

Not at all. Do not assume.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
What is your point?
That evolution works only with what it’s got. It can select a mutation making an animal’s fur - or a bird’s feathers - thicker or thinner. Or a bird’s beak, longer or shorter.

But it has never been demonstrated that it can develop new genes to create those feathers or fur. Or a beak.

The above link to the UConn article admitted that.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Because of its properties.
It's made from plastics and other non-naturally occuring materials.
It has inscriptions on it like numbers, codes and "made it china".
It has brand markings.
It shows signs of manufacturing like soldering.

Everything about it pretty much screams "human made".
Not all designed objects are made from non-naturally occurring materials. Nor do they all have an inscription, or brand markings.

You left out the most important part: custom way.
Indicated it was manufactored / forged by some agent, as opposed to formed / evolved through, or under the influence of, the laws of nature.
Not sure what you are talking about here.

That doesn't matter.
A non-working one would bear all the same marks of manufacturing / custom processing.

Heck, an abstract sculpture that serves no purpose other then to stand in a corner as decoration, would still bear marks of manufacturing, like carving.

The purpose/function of an object is of no importance when the goal is determining if it is custom made or naturally formed.


Sure, that is the case for such components.
It is not the case for an abstract art sculpture.

It has no relevancy to it being designed or not.

Yes...

Patterns and processes that emerge as a direct result of the laws of nature affecting matter.
Yes, but has nothing to do with design. Otherwise you may wand to produce a reference or two.

Let's just make it a billion trillion and go with that.

Why? It is nothing like it.

I agree up until "in a systematic way". The rest can't be deduced from the mere observation of the structure. And that "rest", eventhough you mentioned multiple things, is really just one thing: pre-planned intention.

How did you concluded that it was intentionally put together?
You are infusion agency into it without any reason, without any evidence.

It is no more then an assumed conclusion.
I would suggest that perhaps we are both assuming, but I am using evidence in the same way you claim to be.
There is a goal that involves functionality of the connected parts... without which, the entire system breaks down.
What system are you proposing, that has that goal - natural selection? How so?
Natural selection is not goal oriented.

The requirements are evidently according to plan. They have a specific purpose.
This gives evidence of design... An intelligent agent that utilized the plan towards the goal.
This is what we know personally from experience, and observe.

Having said that, the question you ask, is not how one distinguishes natural objects from manufactured / designed ones.

You can't exactly "unplug" a brain.
A brain isn't "plugged in".

Your argument from awe, that you reinforce with an equivocation fallacy and an assumed conclusion, is noted.

It isn't evidence of anything, except perhaps that much still remains to be learned about the brain.

You have given exactly 0 evidence for the idea of brains being designed / manufactured with intent by an external agent.

Natural design does not require a "designer". Natural designs are produced by natural processes, governed by the laws of nature..
You have yet to explain natural design.
We are talking about the brain, not color, or size. or antics.
I have no problem with adaptation, being an observable fact. However, if you are saying the brain is a natural design, you need to explain what that means, and how it happened.
As far as I know, you are making unconfirmed assumptions.

:rolleyes:

You have given not evidence at all.
Describing how a brain works and saying "we don't know how this or that works" 50 times, doesn't constitute evidence for an external agent that designs brains with intention. You haven't even begun to address the origins of brains. All you did was cite a few factoids while falsely equivocating it to a human made product while completely ignoring the MANY ways in which they are different. While it is exactly those differences that make one a custom object and the other a natural one.
The OP asked for evidence for God. This is just one evidences, as we know that design requires a designer, and we also know there is cause and effect.
Natural selection is not goal oriented.
The design of the connections in the brain are all intended toward a specific goal.

1. we know from the fossil record that brain sizes in a lineage vary over time. The brain size of the human lineage has nearly trippled over the past 7 million years
Yes, they / you assume that.
When one has to assume, and cannot determine if an assumption is true,with any accuracy, it remains an assumption.
This can be visualized with current data on hominin evolution, starting with Australopithecus — a group of hominins from which humans are likely descended.
What you are accusing me of is actually what you are doing.
The honest scientists does not speak of these thing with suck cocksuredness.

2. we have extant examples from extremely rudimentary brains all the way up to large complex ones
Another assumption. We have what? Nothing/

3. we know that brain building is determined and regulated through genetics, pretty much like all the other parts of our body
Brain building? Sound like something unscientific. I wonder where you got that idea from, other than your head.
Evolution of the brain - Wikipedia
The principles that govern the evolution of brain structure are not well understood....
One approach to understanding overall brain evolution is to use a paleoarchaeological timeline to trace the necessity for ever increasing complexity in structures that allow for chemical and electrical signaling. Because brains and other soft tissues do not fossilize as readily as mineralized tissues, scientists often look to other structures as evidence in the fossil record to get an understanding of brain evolution. This, however, leads to a dilemma as the emergence of organisms with more complex nervous systems with protective bone or other protective tissues that can then readily fossilize occur in the fossil record before evidence for chemical and electrical signaling. Recent evidence has shown that the ability to transmit electrical and chemical signals existed even before more complex multicellular lifeforms.

Fossilization of brain, or other soft tissue, is possible however, and scientists can infer that the first brain structure appeared at least 521 million years ago, with fossil brain tissue present in sites of exceptional preservation.

Another approach to understanding brain evolution is to look at extant organisms that do not possess complex nervous systems, comparing anatomical features that allow for chemical or electrical messaging.


Seem like we have been here before.
I'm not going through your ignoring posts again though.

4. we know of specific mutations that induce changes in brain size.
Yes. Disorders that are not good news for the large headed carrier.
Study Finds New Gene Mutations that Lead to Enlarged Brain Size, Cancer, Autism, Epilepsy
Was a gene mutation responsible for bigger human brains?

5. the brain bears no signs of manufacturing
Opinion noted.

All the evidence points to brains being a natural occurrence.
Based on assumptions yes. Science, no.
Evolution of neuronal types and families
Major questions in the evolution of neurons and nervous systems remain unsolved, such as the origin of the first neuron, the possible convergent evolution of neuronal phenotypes, and the transition from a relatively simple decentralized nerve net to the complex, centralized nervous systems found in modern bilaterian animals.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
What straw man? Well, if I had the power to design the brain of a rodent, I would have made it look more like that circuit, and not that horrible mess. So, that terribly looking bloody cobweb of nerves looks more like the result of some naturalistic processes, and not of an orderly engineer. But this is not my main point.

No, i am wondering whether we could conclude that the mind of the designed is designed, too.

if not, why not?

after all, assuming we are designed, the only evidence we have of what characterizes design comes from other designs. So, what makes you think that whomever designed us, assuming we are designed, is not designed, too?

ciao

- viole
When we say the mind of God, we don't think physical. Hence, it doesn't make sense to me, to think in physical terms about God.
Actually, when I think of energy, I don't compare it to God.
So I can easily see why a beginning of all things which would be based on the real thing - the designer requires no designer.

Maybe you don't see that, but our minds aren't the same. They have different connections.
Maybe some are unplugged from the true mind, making it hard for them to get the true message. ;)
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
A god who is interested in humankind? Who would commit mass genocide and wipe out most of the population of the world because he messed up his original creation.
I'm not a Jehovah Witness. So I don't want to make a case for your conversation partner/ your many JW conversation partners here...
Just want to answer this post.

In my opinion, God didn't mess up. Man did.
Genocide, according to wikipedia, is unlawful killing. Why is it unlawful for a Creator to destroy everything he created?
It's all his.
Where does that law come from that you seem to be having in mind?
[God] chooses to [...] ignore the plight of every human
In my opinion, God didn't ignore, he sent the Savior: Jesus Christ. He is my savior, I think. I used to have many plights, but today I have none, thanks to God!
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Did I say I denied the “whole principle of evolution”?

Not at all. Do not assume.

I wasn't assuming, you started this by objecting to a basic principle of evolution (that it is a route to functional complex systems): #166.

As I said, outside of religious superstitions, that is an entirely uncontroversial statement of a basic principle of evolution and is in no way questioned by the article you posted.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
But it has never been demonstrated that it can develop new genes...

Simply false.

For example (took me all of two minutes to find an example paper):-

"Ever since the pre-molecular era, the birth of new genes with novel functions has been considered to be a major contributor to adaptive evolutionary innovation. Here, I review the origin and evolution of new genes and their functions in eukaryotes, an area of research that has made rapid progress in the past decade thanks to the genomics revolution. Indeed, recent work has provided initial whole-genome views of the different types of new genes for a large number of different organisms. The array of mechanisms underlying the origin of new genes is compelling, extending way beyond the traditionally well-studied source of gene duplication. Thus, it was shown that novel genes also regularly arose from messenger RNAs of ancestral genes, protein-coding genes metamorphosed into new RNA genes, genomic parasites were co-opted as new genes, and that both protein and RNA genes were composed from scratch (i.e., from previously nonfunctional sequences). These mechanisms then also contributed to the formation of numerous novel chimeric gene structures. Detailed functional investigations uncovered different evolutionary pathways that led to the emergence of novel functions from these newly minted sequences and, with respect to animals, attributed a potentially important role to one specific tissue—the testis—in the process of gene birth. Remarkably, these studies also demonstrated that novel genes of the various types significantly impacted the evolution of cellular, physiological, morphological, behavioral, and reproductive phenotypic traits. Consequently, it is now firmly established that new genes have indeed been major contributors to the origin of adaptive evolutionary novelties."​

 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I personally don’t feel I have sufficient evidence to warrant belief in a god and I am genuinely interested to discuss what has convinced people that there is such a being.
Well what about the typical arguments promoted by apologetics?


I think the fine tuning of the universe is the best.... Have you analyzed the argument?.... What problems do you see?
 
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